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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently have an MC8 and love it. BUT, I have been seeing other processors like Sunfire's TGIII and Yamaha's new receiver using 9.1 and I got to thinking "Hey they might be on to something here. The more speakers the better".


So my question is. If I upgraded to an MC12 would I be able to get 9.1 playback from stereo and other sources through those 2 auxilary inputs on the MC12 like the TGIII can? I don't really care about the extra sub inputs but I really want to try out 9.1 through Lexicon.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by eulogytool
If I upgraded to an MC12 would I be able to get 9.1 playback from stereo and other sources through those 2 auxilary inputs on the MC12 like the TGIII can?
No, the AUX outputs on the MC-12 aren't active yet.


Sanjay
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They aren't active yet? That thing has been out for like 3 years!! What are they waiting for? They need Logic9. Just kidding...But I don't know about upgrading now because Lexicon has already waited so long and by the time they decide to activate them TH's 10.2 might be in.
 

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"What are they waiting for?"


Probably a good use for them.


"I have been seeing other processors like Sunfire's TGIII and Yamaha's new receiver using 9.1"


How are they using the extra channels? If it is just a bunch of channel duplication for the original 5.1 mix then that isn't very handy and anyone could duplicate that with Y cables.


Shawn
 

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The Sunfire unit doesn't use DSP for the side axis channels. That is an analog matrix operation. IIRC, the TGIII has a 10 channel DAC, but uses 2 channels of it to do downmix for zone 2 instead of DSP magic to get the side axis, the other 8 channels are for 7.1 and such...


Sorny
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Sorny
The Sunfire unit doesn't use DSP for the side axis channels. That is an analog matrix operation.
What content is the Sunfire sending to the side axis channels?


Thanx,

Sanjay
 

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Sorny,


"That is an analog matrix operation."


Do you know if it is steered or just a blend between the two channels? Either approach seems like it would be effected by the time alignment differences between the front and rear channels as well as not really having time alignment for those channels.


Shawn
 

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Well, here is the link to where I got the matrix operation info from. SunfireEngineer also checks that thread, so your other questions would be best addressed in that thread.


Sorny
 

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Quote:
No room for side axis outputs from the DSP, so we create them with analog circuitry after the L/R Main D/A:

L side = (0.8 * L Main) + (0.2 * R Main)

R side = (0.8 * R Main) + (0.2 * L Main)
If that's the information going to the side-axis channels, then it seems like they should be placed on the inside of the main L&R speakers rather than outside. Strange choice.


Best,

Sanjay
 

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The other channels Holman envisioned were "height" channels. It takes a lot of consumer demand to get discrete, "back surround channel", or height channels. Dr. Griesinger, the chief scientist for HK/Lexicon says that 5.1 channels is enough. He feels everything past that can be steered through matrices. I'm not sure if I agree with him on that one, but I know it will be difficult to convince the general public that they need 2, 4, 6...speakers more in their systems. It's hard enough to convince Lexicon owners to put in 8 channels! And to make software in a format, you really need the support of the general public for it to take off. Witness the slow- to- catch on D-Audio and SACD formats. Sanjay, you and I are the exception. :) We believe...


Here is Toms 10.2 diagram:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/qa/qa2002/qa296.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Good point. But the average Jo Schmo isn't going to buy a Lexicon either. Developers know people with a golden ear will test the waters for the average consumer. I'm sure i'm not the only one in here that thinks 10.2 or even 9.1 would be awesome.
 

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Quote:
L side = (0.8 * L Main) + (0.2 * R Main)

R side = (0.8 * R Main) + (0.2 * L Main)
If that's the matrix, it's also a psychoacoustically poor choice, since it's not energy-preserving. I wonder why someone just doesn't license Trifield and use it to create more front channels if that's the problem they're trying to solve.


--Andre
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by eulogytool
Good point. But the average Jo Schmo isn't going to buy a Lexicon either. Developers know people with a golden ear will test the waters for the average consumer. I'm sure i'm not the only one in here that thinks 10.2 or even 9.1 would be awesome.
Me, me, me, me!!!!! I would rather have a lesser 10.2 system than an equally priced 5.1 system. I think there's so much you could do with those extra channels and stereo bass. I just bought a 7.1 NHT T6 system, but for the same price, I could probably have had a 10.2 NHT T5 system and it would probably sound that much better. Actually, I think 9.1 is the perfect thing. I don't know if I need height channels unless someone can tell me what they'd use it for. The new Meridian preamp has 10 digital channels. 7.3? Or 9.1? Who can say? I have heard rumors that several other companies are banking on 10.2 and are going to include 12 preamp channels on their units. Maybe it's just future proofing. Maybe it's only a matter of time. At the rate speakers are improving, we may not need $5000/pr speakers, just more $500/pr speakers.
 

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Joel,


"and are going to include 12 preamp channels on their units. "


It's called the MC-12. ;) 10 channels are currently active. 7 main speakers and 3 subwoofer outputs.


Shawn
 

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Joel,
Quote:
I don't know if I need height channels unless someone can tell me what they'd use it for.
There's a couple of ways to use height speakers. The most obvious use is to have overhead speakers for fixed imaging above us. Most surround systems already give some impression of overhead sound, but a hard source would be better than phantom imaging. Current EX/ES soundtracks and 7.1 speaker layouts already have 4 main vectors covered: front & back, left & right. There's no place left to go but up.


The other thing you could use height channels for is to simulate height first-reflection points. When your front speakers fire, their sounds are reflected on the side walls as well as the ceiling. These first-reflection points let our ear/brain mechanism know how big the room is around us. It is often recommended that absorptive panels be placed at first-reflection points so these reflections don't reach the listener's ears and betray the recording's venue. I mean, who wants to hear a symphony played back with the acoustics of a living room? But, aside from absorbing these side-wall and ceiling reflections, what if you then placed speakers at those locations and fed the listener a delayed set of first-reflections? It would allow you to give our ears a much better impression of a larger sized room; both in width and height.


There's a lot of interesting things that can be done with additional channels and speakers. Keep in mind that the more speakers used, the less we rely on phantom imaging; the less we rely on phantom imaging, the more stable the soundfield (for all listeners). BTW, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's excited by new technology and who'd be willing to try more speakers.


Best,

sanjay
 

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I am excited about the excellent idea of new technologies like height channels and multiple surround hardware and software like you Sanjay. For some time now Tom Jung of DMP Records has been experimenting with an extra channel for a height channel. Tom Holman (see the web site I posted earlier) fathered THX and unofficially godfathered 5.1. He experimented with the 10.2 system which employs height channels as will as many surround channels. Keep in mind Holmans proposal includes discrete height information to these channels. Universal Studio's ride: "Back to the Future" has 14 speakers in it. Yamaha's flagship 9-channel (add a sub for .1) receiver the RX-Z9 is a 170W X 7, plus 50W X 2 beast. The PDF on it says the front effect channels are placed above the main speakers, or near the corners of the room. Yamaha uses a DSP process they have refined for 15 years to create "discrete" sonic information for the height channels to a proper height cue while minimizing distortion effects from comb filtering. Remember comb filtering means more speakers cause distortion. Without this chip you will not add "height" cues, but will adversely impact the sound stage plus create distortion artifacts due to phase/path differences. Yamaha is currently the only one doing this and with proprietary logic chips to extract the "height information". Understand, we're not just putting speakers up high we need to determine what sounds would logically come from that direction (psycho acoustically), and then steer those sounds without artifacts, etc.

To close Meridian's mastermind, Bob Sturat said this on the height idea:" I've always felt passionately that height must be the next thing. It may take a while, but I think we'll see it.Once you've heard it, you really feel it's another big step forward. The height component of sound is something we experience in live concerts, of course, but it's also right there in everyday life. It's a normal source of our entire sound world." ("For the Love of Music" June '02, Stereophile Guide to Home Theater. By: Lawrence B. Johnson. About Bob Sturat, of Median.)

Sturat sees the height channel as an easily managed last piece of a totally enveloping sound bubble. Alimental, hopes this helps you see what height channels are used for a little more.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by eulogytool
I don't see anything about height channels.
Look above the main speakers and you will see a couple of small speakers placed higher up (hanging from long ceiling brackets).


Best,

Sanjay
 
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