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Subtitles with 2.4:1 screen?

11424 Views 63 Replies 20 Participants Last post by Low Profile, 13 d ago

DaViD Boulet

Discussion Starter · Jul 14, 2021

Hi all,

It seems like an obvious question... and hopefully one with viable answer... but searching the forum hasn't turned up much (and most of the search results are back from the early 2000s with folks talking about using HTPC for DVD playback which allowed repositioning of subtitltes).

So the problem is obvious with many 2.4/2.35:1 movies displaying subtitles that make use of the lower letterboxing area... so what's the solution for a contant height 2.4:1 screen setup? Zooming the movie out and shifting the image up to create a "black bar area" underneath on the screen just for subtitles sort of defeats the very purpose of having a 2.4:1 screen in the first place.

Are there any blu-ray/UHD players that allow for subtitles to be repositioned? It would seem trivial to do since it's just digital text overlay to begin with. With all of the $$ and care folks invest into contstant height, surely someone has solved this... right?

Thanks!

-Dave

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bud16415

· #2 · Jul 14, 2021

There are players that did this and are quite expensive or out of production and need to now be found used. They will work with some disc material but anything streamed is embedded in the stream. Also if you watch Netflix or Amazon or all the rest the controls for a scope movie when you pause etc will be down in that area.

If you have a mask down there for an IMAX +CIH setup you can remove it. if you have a mask for a CIH setup you can overlay a white mask for the sub titles to show on. You can shrink the image as you mentioned and I agree that is not the best.
I personally looked at all this and for my needs went with variable presentation and a stealth screen surface. That solution worked best for me as my budget didn’t allow for automated 4way masking and my laziness didn’t allow for me jumping up changing masking every time the media changed AR.

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Killroy

· #3 · Jul 14, 2021

Are you willing to remux your discs that have the subs that are outside the active area? BDSup2Sub is able to do this with a little keyboard work.

Reactions: 1

Craig Peer

· #4 · Jul 14, 2021 (Edited)

DaViD Boulet said:
Hi all,

It seems like an obvious question... and hopefully one with viable answer... but searching the forum hasn't turned up much (and most of the search results are back from the early 2000s with folks talking about using HTPC for DVD playback which allowed repositioning of subtitltes).

So the problem is obvious with many 2.4/2.35:1 movies displaying subtitles that make use of the lower letterboxing area... so what's the solution for a contant height 2.4:1 screen setup? Zooming the movie out and shifting the image up to create a "black bar area" underneath on the screen just for subtitles sort of defeats the very purpose of having a 2.4:1 screen in the first place.

Are there any blu-ray/UHD players that allow for subtitles to be repositioned? It would seem trivial to do since it's just digital text overlay to begin with. With all of the $$ and care folks invest into contstant height, surely someone has solved this... right?

Thanks!

-Dave

The Oppo 203 let’s you move subtitles. The Panasonic players do too, although it’s position isn’t “sticky” like the Oppo. The Sony player I used for a while - same thing. My new Zappiti player also allows for moving subtitles.

Note that I have a large collection of foreign movies on disc. There are just a few that have subtitles baked in that can't be moved, but 98% can. The ones that can't I watch on my 16:9 screen.

Reactions: 1

DaViD Boulet

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jul 14, 2021

Craig Peer said:
The Oppo 203 let’s you move subtitles. The Panasonic players do too, although it’s position isn’t “sticky” like the Oppo. The Sony player I used for a while - same thing. My new Zappiti player also allows for moving subtitles.

Note that I have a large collection of foreign movies on disc. There are just a few that have subtitles baked in that can't be moved, but 98% can. The ones that can't I watch on my 16:9 screen.

Thanks Craig,

that's basically "the magic answer" I was hoping to hear as 99% of my content is blu-ray HD or (will be) UHD... and I have the Oppo 203 so I'll check out that feature to see how it works (trying to plan ahead and check all my boxes for when I get a new PJ with zoom-memory and go constant height).

Thanks all!

-Dave

Reactions: 1

Craig Peer

· #6 · Jul 14, 2021

DaViD Boulet said:
Thanks Craig,

that's basically "the magic answer" I was hoping to hear as 99% of my content is blu-ray HD or (will be) UHD... and I have the Oppo 203 so I'll check out that feature to see how it works (trying to plan ahead and check all my boxes for when I get a new PJ with zoom-memory and go constant height).

Thanks all!

-Dave

The thing I like about the Oppo is once you move the subtitles up where you can see them, they stay there. Better than the Panny which re-sets to default when you turn it off and watch something the next day. Nothing worse than watching a movie with friends and the first subtitles are cut off or the 2nd line is invisible, and you have to stop the movie, adjust them, then start over. The Oppo doesn't do that.

Reactions: 2

DaViD Boulet

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 14, 2021

You literaly read my mind. I'm thinking "I'll get this awesome 2.4:1 screen and wow all my friends with the amazing experience" then the next thought was "crap... how parade-raining it would be if subtitles popped up and were cut off... then folks would get confused and ask what's wrong... then I'd have to stop the movie etc. etc."

Reactions: 2

Josh Z

· #8 · Jul 15, 2021

Craig Peer said:
The thing I like about the Oppo is once you move the subtitles up where you can see them, they stay there. Better than the Panny which re-sets to default when you turn it off and watch something the next day. Nothing worse than watching a movie with friends and the first subtitles are cut off or the 2nd line is invisible, and you have to stop the movie, adjust them, then start over. The Oppo doesn't do that.

The "sticky" setting does have a downside. If the disc was authored with subtitles properly in the image where they should be, they may appear high up in the middle of the screen on top of the actors' faces until you reset the position back to default.

DaViD Boulet said:
You literaly read my mind. I'm thinking "I'll get this awesome 2.4:1 screen and wow all my friends with the amazing experience" then the next thought was "crap... how parade-raining it would be if subtitles popped up and were cut off... then folks would get confused and ask what's wrong... then I'd have to stop the movie etc. etc."

One great thing about the OPPO 203 is that you can activate the subtitle shift without bringing up a menu. If the subtitles are too low or too high, a few button presses on the remote can slide them into position in real time without stopping the movie.

To reiterate, however, the subtitle shift only works on disc-based content (DVD, Blu-ray, 4K UHD Blu-ray). For anything streaming, the subtitle placement is baked into the image and you're SOL.

Reactions: 1

Craig Peer

· #9 · Jul 15, 2021

Josh Z said:
The "sticky" setting does have a downside. If the disc was authored with subtitles properly in the image where they should be, they may appear high up in the middle of the screen on top of the actors' faces until you reset the position back to default.

One great thing about the OPPO 203 is that you can activate the subtitle shift without bringing up a menu. If the subtitles are too low or too high, a few button presses on the remote can slide them into position in real time without stopping the movie.

To reiterate, however, the subtitle shift only works on disc-based content (DVD, Blu-ray, 4K UHD Blu-ray). For anything streaming, the subtitle placement is baked into the image and you're SOL.

True, but for folks that have trouble reading subtitles and watching a movie, better a tad high than too low.

Reactions: 2

DaViD Boulet

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jul 15, 2021 (Edited)

Josh Z said:
The "sticky" setting does have a downside. If the disc was authored with subtitles properly in the image where they should be, they may appear high up in the middle of the screen on top of the actors' faces until you reset the position back to default.

One great thing about the OPPO 203 is that you can activate the subtitle shift without bringing up a menu. If the subtitles are too low or too high, a few button presses on the remote can slide them into position in real time without stopping the movie.

To reiterate, however, the subtitle shift only works on disc-based content (DVD, Blu-ray, 4K UHD Blu-ray). For anything streaming, the subtitle placement is baked into the image and you're SOL.

Makes sense.

Last night I played with the subtitle adjustment feature (when watching the blu-ray edition of season 3 of the "Expanse" which is stunning) and it is super cool. The fact that you can even just hold the subtitle button for 3 seconds to bring up the positioning-feature is super cool... no need to "stop" and go into the setup-menu.

But yeah, I get you that it's not a "one and done" adjustment given the variety of subtitle placement variation on discs. And yeah, I also get that it only affects 5" discs that I actually play in my Oppo 203

Thanks!

Reactions: 1

Craig Peer

· #11 · Jul 15, 2021

I've got closer to 45 Blu-rays / 4K Blu-ray with subtitles.

DaViD Boulet

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jul 15, 2021

My movie watching is 95% blu-ray HD/UHD. I probably have about 1500 discs (need to count them up sometime... been a while) so the Oppo should serve me well in a constant-height theater for the marjority of my viewing (fingers crossed it lasts for a while

)

Reactions: 2

Low Profile

· #13 · Jul 17, 2021 (Edited)

On a related note...
I purchased the Region A release of "Stigmata" on Blu-ray. The forced subtitles fall outside the visible frame and are burned in. See below.

Prior to performing the vertical stretch and deploying my a-lens...

After performing the vertical stretch and deploying my a-lens...

My solution, I imported the Blu-ray release from Germany. I figured there was a good chance the forced subtitles wouldn't be burned in and they weren't. As such, I was able to reposition them though in my case I re-authored the Blu-ray repositioning the subtitles using BDSup2Sub. Much better wouldn't you say.

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kungfuman

· #14 · Jul 19, 2021

I dont really have an issue with subtitle positioning with 4K UHDs/BRs as my Sony X800M2 and Oppo 103 have sub positioning adjustments.

The only issue I have is with streaming service such as Netflix/Disney+ where the subs are all fixed in their apps (I've been using Firestick and ATV). This means I cant use my 'A' lens when using these services.

Low Profile

· #15 · Jul 19, 2021 (Edited)

kungfuman said:
I dont really have an issue with subtitle positioning with 4K UHDs/BRs as my Sony X800M2 and Oppo 103 have sub positioning adjustments.

The only issue I have is with streaming service such as Netflix/Disney+ where the subs are all fixed in their apps (I've been using Firestick and ATV). This means I cant use my 'A' lens when using these services.

I download streams via AnyStream and my Amazon/Netflix accounts. AnyStream isn't a screen recorder. It downloads the actual files that would otherwise be streamed to you. For subtitles AnyStream offers an embeded or external (SRT) option. I use the external option. In my case I always author to Blu-ray. I export the subs (SRT) to Blu-ray (SUP) subs using Subtitle Edit, then repositioning the subs from there if need be using BDSup2Sub prior to building the given Blu-ray and burning to BD-R. AnyStream supports Disney+ and Hulu as well, but is limited to 720p for both due to the browser it emulates.

Reactions: 2

DLCPhoto

· #16 · Sep 29, 2021

I'm a little late to this thread, but as pointed out, several BD players (Oppo, Panasonic) allow shifting the position of subtitles, but this is of no help with a lot of streaming content.

I have the NX7 and DCR Lens, and this was definitely a problem. I have since added the madVR Envy to my Theater, for better DTM, Upscaling, Aspect Ratio control and so forth. One of the features added after I bought it was the ability to intelligently compensate for subtitles either partially or completely within the black bars of 2.35:1 to 2.40:1 content.

With most Netflix and Amazon content like this, I have the Envy configured so that it allows just enough space at the bottom to see the Subtitles, while still filling the screen vertically at the top. I also have it slightly scale the image so that it now fills the screen's width as well.

The net result is that it automatically adjusts for when subtitles are in the black bars, while still filling the screen otherwise. This is a huge improvement over the options with the DCR alone, where I had to either watch it in 16:9, with both letterbox and pillarbox bars, or in 2.40:1, with cropping of the Subtitles.

This capability of the Envy isn't widely known, so just thought I'd throw that out for consideration.

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ScottAvery

· #17 · Sep 29, 2021 (Edited)

I can't afford an Envy in my setup, but I appreciate knowing that option is out there.

Reactions: 3

DLCPhoto

· #18 · Sep 29, 2021

ScottAvery said:
I can't afford an Envy in my setup, but I appreciate know that option is out there.

Yeah, it's not cheap, that's for sure. It does provide quite a lot of benefit and functionality, but that does come at a cost, unfortunately.

Pip

· #19 · Oct 12, 2021

DaViD Boulet said:
My movie watching is 95% blu-ray HD/UHD. I probably have about 1500 discs (need to count them up sometime... been a while) so the Oppo should serve me well in a constant-height theater for the marjority of my viewing (fingers crossed it lasts for a while )

I‘m also late to the thread (came from the JVC thread redirect), but I haven’t seen this mentioned, so I’ll point it out. I’ve had a drop-down scope screen for decades, and I use the zoom method rather than a lens. This set-up requires that your screen surface has built-in drop (black surface) on the top and bottom. My below image subtitles appear on this drop.

Even with a fixed frame screen, you will need only two things to see your subtitles just fine: 1. You need enough blank space under the screen for the subtitles to appear, ie. no center speaker immediately below the border, and 2. This space will need to be flat and close to the same plane as the screen so that the subtitles are in focus. But unless you have this area covered with some incredibly powerful super-duper light sucking fabric, you will still be able to see the bright subtitles just fine. They will of course be dimmer than usual, but I’ve always found this to be a benefit. Even with the strongest light absorbing material I’ve tried, it has never made viewing the subtitles difficult.

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cxwingav

· #20 · Oct 26, 2021

DLCPhoto said:
I have the NX7 and DCR Lens, and this was definitely a problem. I have since added the madVR Envy to my Theater, for better DTM, Upscaling, Aspect Ratio control and so forth. One of the features added after I bought it was the ability to intelligently compensate for subtitles either partially or completely within the black bars of 2.35:1 to 2.40:1 content.

With most Netflix and Amazon content like this, I have the Envy configured so that it allows just enough space at the bottom to see the Subtitles, while still filling the screen vertically at the top. I also have it slightly scale the image so that it now fills the screen's width as well.

The net result is that it automatically adjusts for when subtitles are in the black bars, while still filling the screen otherwise. This is a huge improvement over the options with the DCR alone, where I had to either watch it in 16:9, with both letterbox and pillarbox bars, or in 2.40:1, with cropping of the Subtitles.

This capability of the Envy isn't widely known, so just thought I'd throw that out for consideration.

I'm not sure I understand how that works. Is the picture shrunk only when subtitles appear to fit them? Or are the subtitles themselves somehow moved up? Or something else... It would be great if you could post a picture, thank you.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

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