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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, do i turn off audyssey when doing the "subwoofer crawl" method ? logically, it seems that i should, since audyssey provides room correction.


But then, with audyssey off, i guess i have to manually set the level, crossover, ...


any ideas ?
 

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i would think you would want to find the best spot first before running audyssey


what if the sub is in a null or peak and you run audyssey then move the sub ?


it just makes sense to me to run audyssey after it's in place
 

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I'd suggest using REW to measure the results in your crawl spots with Audussey off. Then re-run Audyssey after relocating the sub.

I"d manually calibrate the levels and crossover before the crawl. Even after running Audyssey, I'd pick my own crossover. Picking crossovers is not something Audyssey is good at. In fact, Audyssey just measures, then sends the info to the AVR which then picks crossover points. I find them to rarely be optimal.
 

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I'd suggest 'crawling' to eliminate any strong nulls from all listening positions. REW is a great way to visualize the strength and size of any nulls... however its not a requisite item as you can easily hear these nulls when playing a 10Hz-120Hz sweep signal. Since peaks can be attenuated they shouldn't really be a major concern... EQ doesn't really matter at this point and its probably best to leave it set Flat. After finding a good location that either eliminates or minimizes nulls from all listening positions THEN run Audyssey to tame the peaks (as well as deal with phasing, delay, cross-overs, etc.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/16913446


I'd suggest using REW to measure the results in your crawl spots with Audussey off. Then re-run Audyssey after relocating the sub.

I"d manually calibrate the levels and crossover before the crawl. Even after running Audyssey, I'd pick my own crossover. Picking crossovers is not something Audyssey is good at. In fact, Audyssey just measures, then sends the info to the AVR which then picks crossover points. I find them to rarely be optimal.

Thanks. i found setting up REW is pain in the rear ! i also cut the cables i made sometime ago !


Audyssey wasnt too far off with my speakers (Proac Studio2), it set the crossover at 90Hz.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer /forum/post/16914315


I'd suggest 'crawling' to eliminate any strong nulls from all listening positions. REW is a great way to visualize the strength and size of any nulls... however its not a requisite item as you can easily hear these nulls when playing a 10Hz-120Hz sweep signal. Since peaks can be attenuated they shouldn't really be a major concern... EQ doesn't really matter at this point and its probably best to leave it set Flat. After finding a good location that either eliminates or minimizes nulls from all listening positions THEN run Audyssey to tame the peaks.

when you say EQ set to FLAT, do you mean Audyssey off & no manual eq, right ? not set to Audyssey Flat !!!


How do can i know that i heard a null ? i.e. at a certain frequency, the level dips ? i guess i will have to try it to find out for myself. thanks.
 

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If you have the luxury of placing the subwoofer in any of several spots and can measure the FR adequately, you would want to optimize the placement prior to running Audyssey. The less EQ Audyssey has to apply, the better. Now, that said, you could also consider Audyssey as lessening the necessity to optimally optimize placement (if at all).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad /forum/post/16914391


when you say EQ set to FLAT, do you mean Audyssey off & no manual eq, right ? not set to Audyssey Flat !!!


How do can i know that i heard a null ? i.e. at a certain frequency, the level dips ? i guess i will have to try it to find out for myself. thanks.

Yes, go to the EQ menu and set to OFF... Audyssey does more than just set the EQ therefore you need to turn it OFF by setting it on anything but Audyssey. If you choose the equalizer setting then you need to manually adjust EQ flat.


Yes, you will actually hear the sound level literally dip during the sweep... the sound can actually completely disappear if the null is strong... this especially is the type null you want to seek to eliminate by careful positioning.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad /forum/post/16914366


Thanks. i found setting up REW is pain in the rear ! i also cut the cables i made sometime ago !


Audyssey wasnt too far off with my speakers (Proac Studio2), it set the crossover at 90Hz.

You're right. Setting up and using REW is a bit of a PIA, but there really is no substitute for actually seeing the frequency response curve when picking the optimum sub location.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/16914397


If you have the luxury of placing the subwoofer in any of several spots and can measure the FR adequately, you would want to optimize the placement prior to running Audyssey. The less EQ Audyssey has to apply, the better. Now, that said, you could also consider Audyssey as lessening the necessity to optimally optimize placement (if at all).

yes i do, i have 3 locations i will try. see pic ! The SB12+ is the subwoofer. i had the sub between my front speakers, but i had complaints that it clutters the front ! so i had to order a longer cable and now embark on this magical journey of relocating the sub ...

 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

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Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/16914479


You're right. Setting up and using REW is a bit of a PIA, but there really is no substitute for actually seeing the frequency response curve when picking the optimum sub location.

oh boy ... you are giving me the itch to redo the cables & replay with REW. i am just tired of cabling, just re-cabled my 5 speakers ! & it seems everyday there's something to do, with the exception of enjoying the damn system !
thanks to all for the info, i will try and report back, dont know if i will measure the FR first. the ear method is lesser work
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/16914702


What will you listen for, exactly?

see monomer's reply ! there should be dips at certain frequencies, now i have never tried that, so i dont know how it will sound, but if it's a dip few dBs below the test signal level, it should be noticeable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad /forum/post/16914743


see monomer's reply ! there should be dips at certain frequencies, now i have never tried that, so i dont know how it will sound, but if it's a dip few dBs below the test signal level, it should be noticeable.

Yeah. But it is difficult to do it by ear. Our hearing isn't flat. Things can be very deceiving. And a change in head position of even a couple of inches can make a big difference.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/16914924


Yeah. But it is difficult to do it by ear. Our hearing isn't flat. Things can be very deceiving. And a change in head position of even a couple of inches can make a big difference.

It really isn't that difficult... its what people did before RTA came into the realm of the masses. In the end, it should always be the ear that makes the final decision on what sounds right or not... whether it is being 'deceived' or not. And if a change of an inch of the head is going to make such a big difference, that same difference will happen with a similar movement of the mic... same, same.


It definitely helps to be able to literally visualize the variation in the frequency spectrum with graphs but it is not vitally necessary to have that sort of resolution... in other words, in most cases it will not be the 'make or break' of a successful room calibration. The only problem with doing it solely by ear is that it is slightly more difficult to gage what the 'normal' signal level is since you have no reference to go by... all you will hear is a sound level that rises and lowers as it goes through the freq spectrum. Complete nulls are real obvious and even moderate nulls are easily identified, however very narrow nulls and shallow partial nulls can be easy to miss. Another alternative is to use an SPL meter to help one determine if its a partial null or just a dip in the middle of a broad peak. But... if one has a meter then you can simply take SPL readings at 5Hz interval steps from say 10Hz to 120Hz and plot these on a graph and you will now have a visual.


Bottom line here is you are just trying to eliminate the nulls (especially the complete nulls, since these cannot be EQed) by positioning and then let Audyssey deal with whatever peaks remain. Before Audyssey, I used REW and a BFD to flatten in-room response but after I tried Audyssey enough times I got rid of all the REW stuff (laptop/sound card, mic, cables and BFD) and have not had to look back... Audyssey makes in-room calibrations so much easier anymore that REW seems to be more just for objective verification of one's hearing abilities. However since my ears will always be the final judge in these matters and I will never second guess their 'ruling', why do I need REW? Its not a slam against REW or the use of any other RTA but rather a recognition of the power and simplicity that Audyssey has brought to in-room calibration... I mean, why make things more complicated than they really have to be?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer /forum/post/16915312


It really isn't that difficult... its what people did before RTA came into the realm of the masses. In the end, it should always be the ear that makes the final decision on what sounds right or not... whether it is being 'deceived' or not. And if a change of an inch of the head is going to make such a big difference, that same difference will happen with a similar movement of the mic... same, same.


It definitely helps to be able to literally visualize the variation in the frequency spectrum with graphs but it is not vitally necessary to have that sort of resolution... in others words, in most cases it will not be the 'make or break' of a successful room calibration. The only problem with doing it solely by ear is that it is slightly more difficult to gage what the 'normal' signal level is since you have no reference to go by... all you will hear is a sound level that rises and lowers as it goes through the freq spectrum. Complete nulls are real obvious and even moderate nulls are easily identified, however very narrow nulls and shallow partial nulls can be easy to miss. Another alternative is to use an SPL meter to help one determine if its a partial null or just a dip in the middle of a broad peak. But... if one has a meter then you can simply take SPL readings at 5HZ intervals from say 10Hz to 120Hz and plot these on a graph and you will now have a visual.


Bottom line here is you are just trying to eliminate the nulls (especially the complete nulls, since these cannot be EQed) by positioning and then let Audyssey deal with whatever peaks remain. Before Audyssey, I used REW and a BFD to flatten in-room response but after I tried Audyssey enough times I got rid of all the REW stuff (laptop/sound card, cables and BFD) and have not had to look back... Audyssey makes in-room calibrations so much easier anymore that REW seems to be more just for objective verification of one's hearing abilities. However since my ears will always be the final judge in these matters and I will never second guess their 'findings', why do I need REW? Its not a slam against REW or the use of any other RTA but rather a recognition of the power and simplicity that Audyssey has brought to in-room calibration... I mean, why make things more complicated than they really have to be?

You make some very good points, but why go back to the days before RTA when we do have that technology at our disposal? Audyssey does an excellent job with what it can work with, but is not of any use for finding the best sub position. If the best sub position is first located, it makes the power of Audyssey that much more effective. The ear is simply not accurate or trained well enough to identify the peaks and nulls as well as measurements. I remember the days when mechanics would also tune cars by ear. Those days are behind us.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer /forum/post/16915312


..............I mean, why make things more complicated than they really have to be?

Ultimately, this is the bottom line which is why I said that, yes, it is best to try and optimize placement all the while knowing full well that Audyssey is going to come in and do its magic in the end. In other words, optimizing location is not as important as it once was. Which is sort of the whole point of Audyssey.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ok i dug up my old cables i did for REW and did some measurements. i kept the sub in position 1 as in the diagram in previous post, and i measured at the main listening position and at another location. i cant move my 3 seater alone so i didnt crawl & didnt move the sub. i may have not properly calibrated my CM140 ...

also it seems there's no way to get the subwoofer generating the sweeping frequency alone, all 2.1 speakers are active, of course with a cross over of 90Hz.


SO what do you make of it ? This is the main listenning position.



Location between both sofas.



Room FR:
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer /forum/post/16915312


... Another alternative is to use an SPL meter to help one determine if its a partial null or just a dip in the middle of a broad peak. But... if one has a meter then you can simply take SPL readings at 5Hz interval steps from say 10Hz to 120Hz and plot these on a graph and you will now have a visual.

...

word ! This morning i said let's make it simple. I set the sub in Pos 1, then I measured in my LP using my SPL with Realtraps CD test tones. behold, i am a beleiver !!! the range from 70-79Hz had a dip of close to 11dB compared with neighbouring freqs range. (crossover set at 90Hz)


Then i moved the sub to Pos 2 & Pos3, the dip was gone !!! wow ... WTF ! cool stuff.

Observations:
  • Pos2: farfield, opposite to Pos1. No dip, bass is very strong, boomy, vibrations through floor.
  • Pos3: as seen in the pic, nearfield, betweent he sofas, the Bass was flat, quick and not boomy, Ironman sent vibrations thru my sofa & body (5.5ft awat from the sub)

    Music 2.1 still sounded nice, center stage, nice imaging, u dont feel the bass coming from next to you or behind.


anyone have some scientific explanations on my not so scientific observations ?


room diagram
 
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