[BINAP]

Hello,

As the time for purchasing a new receiver has finally come, I have been doing alot of reading on each of the flag ship offerings from each company. Since I plan on buying through the internet, I may have to purchase the receiver without hearing it . I have read a great deal on the Denon 5803 and the 49TXi, but since this is a new product I have yet to see any lisener/owner impressions. If you have any experience with this piece could you please post your thoughts? As of right now, I am trying to decide bewteen the B&K 507 and the Sunfire unit. They both seem to have comprable features, but the Sunfire (at least on paper) can put out more power. I also like the fact that Sunfire seems to be sending out regular software updates since the release of their receiver. I can buy either one over the internet for around 3200. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Rob

 

[CodeEcks]

Is this a certified dealer on the internet? could you you tell me where are you getting this price quote from.

 

[BINAP]

The dealer is not certified. I have seen units at this price sold on Ebay by a seller with a decent amount of feedback. Do you know of any certified dealers on the internet that sell the receiver below MSRP?

 

[BINAP]

Come on guys. Someone has to have heard this receiver. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks,

Rob

 

[DblHelix]

Well I can tell you if it is online then the Sunfire and the Elite are not authorized dealers (no online sales for either) and unless you are paying close to MSRP the Denon isn't either. Not sure with sunfire but I know Denon and Pioneer will not honor waranties on items purchased from non-authorised dealers.

 

[elbig]

Onecall sells Sunfire and they are authorized but they display it at list . You need to call to get the price.The unit is quite good overall.

 

[Audiguy3]

A friend from work auditioned the Sunfire vs the Denon 5803. He bought the Denon - said he expected it to be a close choice - in the end the Denon blew away the Sunfire.


Reggie

 

[steve morgan]

denon verses carver when it comes down to the processors i no the denon works well i did not get to hear the 2 directly .when it comes to the power of the 2 units the carver wins hands down there is 3 times the head room in the carver and can drive speakers down to 2 ohms stable (try that with the denon)plus the carver does not get hot.the carver has the kind of power most people wish they could get from an all in one receiver.the denon has more flexibility video switching etc.it depends what you need .i like denon but wish they had more power .i own a 3802 and will be adding on a carver amp soon.i am running dyna audio speakers and the denon just runs out of steam.the carver has some serious dynamics and does not fatigue (get brighter ) at high volumes .no clipping either. good luck.....

 

[BINAP]

First, I would like to thank everyone for their input. In other threads on mega receivers there is a lot of talk concerning whether or not a receiver uses a current limiting design. Can someone explain what this is and what effect it has on SQ? Also, does anyone know if the Ultimate receiver falls under this category?

It really looks like I might have to find a store that carries all of these brands in the Boston area and listen for myself . . .

Are there any high end receiver I should stay away from in general if I am buying a Rockets 750/550/200 5.1 channel system (maybe Pioneer??)?


Thanks again,

Rob

 

[weatherby]

I have the Ultimate Receiver and love it. One warrning however. There is a problem with the component out. Mine is back at Sunfire right now being repaired under warranty. I have had two units both with the same problem. The component out on monitor one or two may just go black. Sunfire admitted there is a problem and they have a fix for it. Other than that it is a fantastic receiver.

 

[swanlee]

A current limiting design in basic terms means if you turn it up loud with all channels going the power supply won't be able to handle it to it cuts the amount of power it is using for all channels. This would limit loud dynamic passages in music and HT and probably cause the receiver to not meet it's power wattage rating with all channels driven. You want the power supply to have a lot of headroom so it never has to strain to play what you want it to at the levels you intend. This method artificially limits the power output if you reach a certain threshold.


I would try and avoid this type of design but the industry is going this direction so you may not be able to avoid it. To completely avoid this issue I would by a separate amp to power your speakers.


I do not believe the sunfire has this problem as they use a very different method for their power supplies which is why their products are much lighter than others with the same power ratings.

 

[Auditor55]

Quote:

Originally posted by swanlee A current limiting design in basic terms means if you turn it up loud with all channels going the power supply won't be able to handle it to it cuts the amount of power it is using for all channels. This would limit loud dynamic passages in music and HT and probably cause the receiver to not meet it's power wattage rating with all channels driven. You want the power supply to have a lot of headroom so it never has to strain to play what you want it to at the levels you intend. This method artificially limits the power output if you reach a certain threshold. I would try and avoid this type of design but the industry is going this direction so you may not be able to avoid it. To completely avoid this issue I would by a separate amp to power your speakers. I do not believe the sunfire has this problem as they use a very different method for their power supplies which is why their products are much lighter than others with the same power ratings.

Please, how loud do you need to play it before it start having those kinds of problems? I don't think that is a legitmate concern because we never really need all the watts the amp and receivers come with anyway, most of the time its overkill, the Ultimate reciever rated at 7x200 watts, in real world applications, you don't even need that much, so what if comes short of its specs, the receiver power will still be sufficient, no additional power amps necessary.

 

[swanlee]

Like I said I do not think the Sunfire suffers from this because they use a propriatray power supply system that I remember reading does not do this.

I'm pretty sure the Sunfire would meet it's qouted spec's easily. Current limiting would refer to makers like, onkyo, sony, yamaha. I also think Harmon Kardan does not use any type of current limiting in it's power supply.


But if given the choice I would choose not to limit the current and let the amps use as much power as they need but because not every maker includes a massive power supply able to handle 7 channels at one time that is why they do this. This can also effect your dynamic range even at moderate levels as the amps won't have enough headroom for extremely loud passages.


Also Auditor I've got a gold watch I'd like to sell you for 500$, it's not real gold but I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference while wearing it.

 

[Auditor55]

Quote:

Originally posted by swanlee Like I said I do not think the Sunfire suffers from this because they use a propriatray power supply system that I remember reading does not do this. I'm pretty sure the Sunfire would meet it's qouted spec's easily. Current limiting would refer to makers like, onkyo, sony, yamaha. I also think Harmon Kardan does not use any type of current limiting in it's power supply. But if given the choice I would choose not to limit the current and let the amps use as much power as they need but because not every maker includes a massive power supply able to handle 7 channels at one time that is why they do this. This can also effect your dynamic range even at moderate levels as the amps won't have enough headroom for extremely loud passages. Also Auditor I've got a gold watch I'd like to sell you for 500$, it's not real gold but I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference while wearing it.

Wrong, I could do an objective test on the watch to know if its gold or not, can you or will you be willing to do the same with audio components?

 

[swanlee]

This thread is not about objective tests, I was simply answering his question, if you have a factual problem with my answer that is fine but your leading this thread in a completely different direction for your own benefit of a particular argument that you really seem to enjoy interjecting in threads on this forum. Anyone can do a search on your name here and see how you like to invade threads and start this kind of objective vs subjective ABX stuff.


Regardless if anyone can hear a difference or not a current limiting design will not allow a receiver to reach it's published specs with all channels driven and more and more companies are doing this these days. Even If I could not hear a difference I would still rather get what I'm paying for.

If I had a choice between to receivers one would match it's published specs and the other does not I will take the one matches it's published specs.

 

[Auditor55]

Quote:

Originally posted by swanlee This thread is not about objective tests, I was simply answering his question, if you have a factual problem with my answer that is fine but your leading this thread in a completely different direction for your own benefit of a particular argument that you really seem to enjoy interjecting in threads on this forum. Anyone can do a search on your name here and see how you like to invade threads and start this kind of objective vs subjective ABX stuff. Regardless if anyone can hear a difference or not a current limiting design will not allow a receiver to reach it's published specs with all channels driven and more and more companies are doing this these days. Even If I could not hear a difference I would still rather get what I'm paying for. If I had a choice between to receivers one would match it's published specs and the other does not I will take the one matches it's published specs.

How can you say I'm taking this thread into another direction? I'm responding to the original poster as you did. The person came to this forum looking for advice, he is trying to decide which flagship receiver he should purchase. Their are various opinions being given to Binap, most seem to be subjective audio opinions, such as the one above by A4short


"A friend from work auditioned the Sunfire vs the Denon 5803. He bought the Denon - said he expected it to be a close choice - in the end the Denon blew away the Sunfire."


Now since Binap said he going to purchase off the internet and might not have a chance to hear the units for himself, if A4short is to believed, he might just be influenced to purchase the Denon over the Sunfire because doesn't measure up to Denon when it comes to sound. That is the epitome of subjective audio opinion, I highly doubt that Denon blows away the Sunfire, if anything they are about even, probably sound more alike than not alike.


You can do a search on me and you will find me adovcating the use of DBT, Idon't apologize for that. I open up a thread myself where I indicated that I'm an objectivist and I will advise those who come to the forum seeking audio from an objectivist perspective. Do you think subjectivist are the only ones qualified to give opinions and advice on audio.


If see a thread such as, (1) What should I purchase receiver or separates, (2) Should I add and separate amp to my receiver, (3) How can I improve the sound of my systems, etc. I'm going to advise or offer an opinion based on an objective perspective, you can offer all the subjective opinions you want.


People come into this forum looking for advice on how to make a good and wise purchase, not everyone is involved in insane consumerism and wasteful spending.


Also, you are the one who tried to make a joke about not knowing the difference between real gold and fake gold, I think you were in a way trying to make a joke about DBT's and differences between audio components. I didn't once mention ABX test or DBT until this post.


Putting aside your attack against me, what I was saying about watts per channel and real world application is practical wise advice. What difference does it make if the Sunfire doesn't actually produce 200 watts per channel x7, but actually measures at 170 watts per channel x7, in the real world, that's all the headroom you're going to need.


Check it the opitmal wattage need for room and speakers size:
http://www.myhometheater.homestead....calculator.html


check out the thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=195055

 

[swanlee]

Besides the fact I did say that the Sunfire would meet it's claim of 200 Watts per channel because it is not using a current limiting design , I said that in two posts which you have seemed to ignore, if I buy a receiver that says it's 200 watts per I want it to actually put out 200 watts per. If it doesn't I want to know that as well.


Since you are such a DBT advocate you probably use the term snake oil alot so why all of a sudden should that be different if a company is flat out lying or stretching the truth about how much wattage it is putting out? If they claim it runs at 200 watts per channel I want it to run at 200 watts per channel since that is what I'm paying for. If it really only runs at 170 watts per channel I'd like to pay a price more in line with that.


Everything Else a side let me repeat the Sunfire very well should meet 200 watts per channel because of the fact it is not using a current limiting design like many other manufacturers do today. Those are the fact let him decide if he cares if other makers might not be meeting their reported specs.


I'm leaving this thread now as I've said all I need to you can find someone else to argue with about if anyone can tell a difference or not.

 

[Sean Max]

Auditor, I find it interesting that you would attack a post that gives a rather factual representation about what happens when an amp runs out of steam without ascertaining under what conditions this receiver will be used (speakers, volume level, etc.) or qualifying your statements to reflect this lack of knowledge.


The volume level at which a receiver without adequate power supply reserves will run out steam depends on many variables: the size of the room, the impedance and effeciancy of the speakers, their distance to the listener, bass management configuration, etc. If the person using the receiver wants to achieve reference levels with low impedance, relatively inefficient speakers in a large room, there may be serious shortcomings to using a receiver with a current limiting design, or, at the very least, one that doesn't make it's rated output for whatever reason, if that entire output is required to reach the desired volume level. All of this is fact, and not a subjective opinion, as it can be verified with objective measurements.


A receiver is not equal to a seperate power amp if you truly need the extra power of the external amp. Whether there is a subjective loss in quality of sound prior to the gear reaching it's limits is, of course, subjective and would vary from user to user, but, as Swanlee pointed out, would manifest itself in compression of dynamics as they are the most demanding material. Perfectly logical conclusion.

 

[steve morgan]

hi binap..arguments aside find the receivers you like .find out what you can from the sales guys and call the manufacturer and as they can answer all your questions you may have to talk to there tec line.don't be surprised when you tell them something the sales guy told you and they start laughing. good luck.

 

[BINAP]

Steve,

Thanks for the advice. I am finding it pretty tough to find good AV stores in the area (I may have to make a trip to New York). So any direct comparisons with the Sunfire will be tough.

In regards to my system, I just placed an order for a Rocket package #0 (750/550/200). The room the system is going in is about 18X25 ft. Since I live in a condo I won't be listening at extreme levels. What I am more interested in is which receiver will yield the best sound with these speakers at reasonable listening levels. I like Pioneer's auto-calibration feature (and the firewire connection), but I am concerned about the amp section. For some reason I don't seem so interested in the Denon (I can’t really give a good reason other than it is older than the rest). All I have heard about the B&K has been good, but at least on paper the Sunfire beats the B&K in terms of features and has an extra 50 watts/channel to boot. Sunfire also seems really aggressive with their software updates. My only concern about the Sunfire is that it weighs 35 lbs. The pessimist in me thinks that there is no way that Sunfire can put out the claimed power and sound as good as the other flagship receivers, which weigh 2-3 times as much as it. At the same time, I figure that with the speakers that I have chosen that there will be little or no difference between these receivers. What do you guys think?


Thanks and sorry for the long post,

Rob