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Discussion Starter #181
LOL I have no idea either. It's a pretty heavy piece.
@BassThatHz come on man. You asked and I delivered. :D
It looks better than average.

Is it as good as a Eaton Power-Sure 800 or a PS audio power plant or a Furman Ref or SurgeX/ZeroSurge series-mode product?
Well no, but it looks better than a home depot stripbar or entry-level UPS, and some of the TrippLite models I've see, that's for sure...

It has your typical series LC low pass filter chokes, and disconnect relays, ferrite choke, plus a large bank of parallel MOV's.
and all of this, appears to be before the rest of the sensitive circuitry, which is good to see.
It's a strong C+
You got lucky, there is a lot WORSE ones out there...
 

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I'm scared to think what my Monster bar has inside so I'm grabbing this C+ unit!
Just fits in a tight spot while looking nice!
 

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I think I'm decided.
Ultralink into the wall.
UPS into one of the High Output outs.
TV, Nas, Exp. Unit, Computer plugged into the UPS.
Peripherals like BR player, Mini DSP, Satellite receiver and AV receiver all plugged into the Ultralink.
Amp will be plugged into the wall on it's own breaker.

Going with this UPS. Gives me lot's of headroom with 1500 watts.
CyberPower PR1500RT2U
 

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My dad picked up my unit as they only had a few left (I'm in isolation until midnight tonight...COVID free baby lol) and he grabbed two for himself!
 

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Discussion Starter #185
I think I'm decided.
Ultralink into the wall.
UPS into one of the High Output outs.
TV, Nas, Exp. Unit, Computer plugged into the UPS.
Peripherals like BR player, Mini DSP, Satellite receiver and AV receiver all plugged into the Ultralink.
Amp will be plugged into the wall on it's own breaker.
I would plug the amp into the UPS. I don't see any problem with that unless the UPS trips a breaker or says the load is unacceptably high (which I highly doubt it will). Then it will be protected too.
Unless you are running 2-4 ohm speakers are max SPL or something, and even then you should at least try it. ;)
 

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^^^ I agree with everything @BassThatHz has stated above.

I've been swimming in the Surge space for 25+ years protecting my and other's AV equipment. Today I use SurgeX products mostly with some Furman units. For SurgeX, I usually opt for SX-1115-RT or SX-1120-RT. Again, the RT model is important b/c it has all the tech embedded: COVUS, ICE, Filtering etc.. whereas the very similar model SX-1115 or SX-1115-R does NOT have all those goodies!

I also use the the SurgeX SA-20 on my new fridge and SA-82 on since it's off somewhere else in the house.

I also have Furman IT-References in the space. FWIW, I have used other Furman power products in the past and like their "series-multi-stage-protection" units -> Series Multi-Stage Protection | Furman Power

These are using "series-mode surge protection" which is patented with about 4 or 5 people actually licensed to use it.
-> Home - Zero Surge
-> Surge Protectors, UPS Systems and Voltage Regulators | Brick Wall
-> Series Multi-Stage Protection | Furman Power
-> ESP and SurgeX Power Protection Technology Overview

Again, I highly suggest checking ebay for those models and consider buying only from reputable sellers. The only thing to check is you do need the green terminal unit to be in place b/c a jumper is needed to enable power-on. I helped a guy a few months back who brought one off eBay which was sold "as-is" for like $25. There wasn't anything wrong with it, it just needed the $3.00 part (Amazon) and the jumper. he was going to toss it - he got a GREAT deal.

When I said I banned MOVs from my home, I was not kidding. In fact, I only buy MOV-free high quality metal power strips today. Peace.
1. Furman doesn't license the tech & uses hybrid series mode surge protection with SMP.
2. Furman uses MOVs, so you haven't banned them from your home.
3. @BassThatHz too. It's COUVS! Catastrophic Over/Under Voltage Shutdown.
 

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Discussion Starter #187 (Edited)
2. Furman uses MOVs, so you haven't banned them from your home.
Just about every device on the planet has MOVs baked right into them, hard to extinguish them from your house when they are ubiquitous.

The key here being that they are downstream from a series-mode.
and that the critical devices aren't interconnected to any unprotected equipment.

It probably won't stop direct-lightning, but indirect-lightning it should be able to absorb. (or so they claim...)

I've been monitoring the grid 24/7/365 for several years now, and haven't recorded a single SG surge or OV event.
(Pacific North West sector.)
3076682


That said, my SurgeX Envision 20 is protected by a SurgeX StandAlone 20, so I could be waiting "almost forever" for such an event to be recorded.

Additionally, it almost never storms here.
I don't even know what a hurricane or tornado even is.
We get like maybe 1-2 storms a year tops; and they only last 1-2hours usually.

More likely to have the lines ripped apart by wind & ice than lightning here.
The only reason I even bought the equipment is "because I can", it gives me peace of mind knowing that my rack isn't directly connected to the raw grid unprotected.

All of my fridges are also on SurgeX's.
Also all of my fiber internet boxes, security system, and router/switches and tv's, too. Those are also on other puresine UPS's.

Better than nothing at-all.

You don't need it, until you need it.
and then you, better have it. :p

One day the sun is gonna throw a z-class CME at us and it is gonna take out all the appliances country-wide, and then we'll all be at the appliance store all at ONCE. But the shelves will be empty, like TP. (That's assuming we aren't busy eating each other, for food.)
That's the best-case scenario.
That's why executive order 13865 and 13920 exist, to protect C3.
But that doesn't include residential/commercial power delivery. :whistle:
and so you and I are... "on our own" (Believe it!)
3076691
 

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1. Furman doesn't license the tech & uses hybrid series mode surge protection with SMP.
2. Furman uses MOVs, so you haven't banned them from your home.
@IHaveSpoken Thanks for your points. You are technically correct. I have altered the original post noting that Furman uses it's own design. I'll also further clarify my content below:

1. Furman "got into trouble" a few years back on item #1. They made "adjustments" to their marketing and their designs so as not to not infringe on the patents which required licensing. Furman's SMP tech is very, very good and I've used it for years. But again, you are technically correct - it is not the same tech as the licensed and patented items produced by SurgeX, Brickwall and others.

FWIW, I deep dived into Furman's SMP+ design about 10-15 years back when I was studying the pros/cons of which to buy and which I could afford. Again you are correct. Larger MOVs, which are flanked by a very large inductors, chokes, coils and I believe transient diodes as I recall but don't quote me on that are on their boards. The thing I liked about the Furman's was they have the ability to actively turn off power to the downstream devices if their protection fails or falls out-of-spec. This type of tech is far more desirable, in it's capabilities and ability to shutdown power to downstream devices if the protection is breached when compared to the super cheap "surge strips" often found today. These "surge strips and surge wall-warts" which usually contain 3-6 MOVs hopping across L-N-G with some sort of "protection indicator for failure" are usually made of plastics which may or may not be thermally stable when the MOVs/devices fail. Those are not something I choose to use in my home.

2. I should have been clearer on my point that most $10 MOV-based wall-warts and inexpensive "surge protectors" strips do use L-N-G MOVs which a) have a limited life due to the surges and depending on the design, they can fail very poorly. Plenty of YT examples showing MOVs failing. I have seen "blown MOVs" myself which literally exploded inside the devices. So yes, I have banned all those inexpensive wall-warts and plastic power-strips which simply put MOVs across L-N-G from my home. I have also been replacing some Furman gear with SurgeX gear over the past 3 years. I do not expect to replace all of it anytime soon though.

@BassThatHz also clarified things a bit. I too deploy SurgeX units on my major smaller appliances which are now full of electronics - fridge, dishwasher, all computers, routers, modems, etc.. I deploy multiple pure-sine-wave 20/30A UPSes upstream from the SurgeX units protecting AV, monitoring, security, modems, routers, medical devices, etc.. So yeah, he and I are on the same page.

Funny story I'll share for emphasis. Years ago, during one nasty thunderstorm I was sitting in my office and I kept hearing this "popping" sound each time I'd see a flash of lightening - which was not even "close by...." So I walked around the house to determine what was "popping with the lightening..." Well it turns out it was my ~ 20 year old, all mechanical as in no electronics really, just timers, etc., 240V/30A electric clothes dryer!! I checked out all the cabling which at that time was all new, the power outlet, the connections, the power cords etc.. I found nothing amiss - no stray wires, no loose connections. So I never did figure out why but until the day I replaced it, it would literally "pop" almost every-time we had lightening anywere nearby and it would get louder as the strikes got closer! So since we live in an area frequented by intense summer storms with plenty of lightening, I had plenty of proof and incentive that we get hit with a lot of surges. So yeah, I'll keep installing SurgeX units on my more critical devices and if I were to ever build another house, I'd have their commercial NEMA units installed right at the breaker panels. ;) One more thing I'll share is when I replaced my 17 year old heat pumps 3 years ago, I examined the circuit boards on the outside unit and sure enough, there are huge surge suppression inductors and other surge circuitry now in the PSU upstream the main compressors, fans etc.. (I have pics if you want... ) :)

Take care. Thanks for asking me clarify my oversights. I hope these posts assist readers down the road. To all - stay safe, stay alive. Peace. Later.
 

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Just about every device on the planet has MOVs baked right into them, hard to extinguish them from your house when they are ubiquitous.

The key here being that they are downstream from a series-mode.
and that the critical devices aren't interconnected to any unprotected equipment.

It probably won't stop direct-lightning, but indirect-lightning it should be able to absorb. (or so they claim...)

I've been monitoring the grid 24/7/365 for several years now, and haven't recorded a single SG surge or OV event.
(Pacific North West sector.)
View attachment 3076682

That said, my SurgeX Envision 20 is protected by a SurgeX StandAlone 20, so I could be waiting "almost forever" for such an event to be recorded.

Additionally, it almost never storms here.
I don't even know what a hurricane or tornado even is.
We get like maybe 1-2 storms a year tops; and they only last 1-2hours usually.

More likely to have the lines ripped apart by wind & ice than lightning here.
The only reason I even bought the equipment is "because I can", it gives me peace of mind knowing that my rack isn't directly connected to the raw grid unprotected.

All of my fridges are also on SurgeX's.
Also all of my fiber internet boxes, security system, and router/switches and tv's, too. Those are also on other puresine UPS's.

Better than nothing at-all.

You don't need it, until you need it.
and then you, better have it. :p

One day the sun is gonna throw a z-class CME at us and it is gonna take out all the appliances country-wide, and then we'll all be at the appliance store all at ONCE. But the shelves will be empty, like TP. (That's assuming we aren't busy eating each other, for food.)
That's the best-case scenario.
That's why executive order 13865 and 13920 exist, to protect C3.
But that doesn't include residential/commercial power delivery. :whistle:
and so you and I are... "on our own" (Believe it!)
View attachment 3076691
That was my point, besides the more important point that the Furman is hybrid technology.

Um. Yes, you’re protecting your Envision 20. You’ve been wasting your time for years if you’re trying to evaluate your home environment for SG surges & OV events.

“Surge: enVision has been exposed to a transient voltage in one of the 3 possible modes (between Live and Neutral, between Live and Ground, between Neutral and Ground) with a peak amplitude of 500V* or higher and a frequency of 20 kHz or higher. *500V surge voltage amplitude applies to IEEE C62.41 Category B Impulse; surge voltage amplitudes necessary for detection of other surge types may vary.”

SurgeX’s ASM reduces 6,000 Volt/3,000 Amp surges below 300V let through. So the only SG surges or OV events you’d have a chance to see in your configuration is from a direct lightning strike or cat attack.

It also means having your OV protection in your 2nd stage of point of use protection won’t warn or protect against arc faults. Having a series mode protector without OV protection can increase the chance of a deadly arc fault fire if you don’t have AFCIs [Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters].
 

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@IHaveSpoken Thanks for your points. You are technically correct. I have altered the original post noting that Furman uses it's own design. I'll also further clarify my content below:

1. Furman "got into trouble" a few years back on item #1. They made "adjustments" to their marketing and their designs so as not to not infringe on the patents which required licensing. Furman's SMP tech is very, very good and I've used it for years. But again, you are technically correct - it is not the same tech as the licensed and patented items produced by SurgeX, Brickwall and others.

FWIW, I deep dived into Furman's SMP+ design about 10-15 years back when I was studying the pros/cons of which to buy and which I could afford. Again you are correct. Larger MOVs, which are flanked by a very large inductors, chokes, coils and I believe transient diodes as I recall but don't quote me on that are on their boards. The thing I liked about the Furman's was they have the ability to actively turn off power to the downstream devices if their protection fails or falls out-of-spec. This type of tech is far more desirable, in it's capabilities and ability to shutdown power to downstream devices if the protection is breached when compared to the super cheap "surge strips" often found today. These "surge strips and surge wall-warts" which usually contain 3-6 MOVs hopping across L-N-G with some sort of "protection indicator for failure" are usually made of plastics which may or may not be thermally stable when the MOVs/devices fail. Those are not something I choose to use in my home.

2. I should have been clearer on my point that most $10 MOV-based wall-warts and inexpensive "surge protectors" strips do use L-N-G MOVs which a) have a limited life due to the surges and depending on the design, they can fail very poorly. Plenty of YT examples showing MOVs failing. I have seen "blown MOVs" myself which literally exploded inside the devices. So yes, I have banned all those inexpensive wall-warts and plastic power-strips which simply put MOVs across L-N-G from my home. I have also been replacing some Furman gear with SurgeX gear over the past 3 years. I do not expect to replace all of it anytime soon though.

@BassThatHz also clarified things a bit. I too deploy SurgeX units on my major smaller appliances which are now full of electronics - fridge, dishwasher, all computers, routers, modems, etc.. I deploy multiple pure-sine-wave 20/30A UPSes upstream from the SurgeX units protecting AV, monitoring, security, modems, routers, medical devices, etc.. So yeah, he and I are on the same page.

Funny story I'll share for emphasis. Years ago, during one nasty thunderstorm I was sitting in my office and I kept hearing this "popping" sound each time I'd see a flash of lightening - which was not even "close by...." So I walked around the house to determine what was "popping with the lightening..." Well it turns out it was my ~ 20 year old, all mechanical as in no electronics really, just timers, etc., 240V/30A electric clothes dryer!! I checked out all the cabling which at that time was all new, the power outlet, the connections, the power cords etc.. I found nothing amiss - no stray wires, no loose connections. So I never did figure out why but until the day I replaced it, it would literally "pop" almost every-time we had lightening anywere nearby and it would get louder as the strikes got closer! So since we live in an area frequented by intense summer storms with plenty of lightening, I had plenty of proof and incentive that we get hit with a lot of surges. So yeah, I'll keep installing SurgeX units on my more critical devices and if I were to ever build another house, I'd have their commercial NEMA units installed right at the breaker panels. ;) One more thing I'll share is when I replaced my 17 year old heat pumps 3 years ago, I examined the circuit boards on the outside unit and sure enough, there are huge surge suppression inductors and other surge circuitry now in the PSU upstream the main compressors, fans etc.. (I have pics if you want... ) :)

Take care. Thanks for asking me clarify my oversights. I hope these posts assist readers down the road. To all - stay safe, stay alive. Peace. Later.
Do you mean downstream? Power from the wall flows to the SurgeX flows to the UPS?

I don’t have a problem with the Furman SMP products. As my response to BassThatHz indicates the Furman SMP products could be seen to offer the 2nd most point of use protection. Behind only SurgeX with COUVS & ICE.
 

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Discussion Starter #193
Power from the wall flows to the SurgeX flows to the UPS?
The correct order is: wall -> surge eliminator -> battery -> equipment

Even a cheap $50 UPS from BestBuy\Walmart is better than direct wall. They at least provide some level of Over/Under/Surge.

Of course the pure sinewave units do a much better job and are recommended if you can afford it.

AV equipment doesn't need the online models, that's more for data centers, banks, and medical equipment etc; interactive is more than good-enough. i.e. always seamless vs usually seamless switchover.
 

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Even a cheap $50 UPS from BestBuy\Walmart is better than direct wall. They at least provide some level of Over/Under/Surge.
I would disagree in that this would depend on load. I have some Tripplite isobars, which I use for sources and non sub amps. However they have a circuit breaker that will trip at 12A. A 4kw or 6kw Speakerpower (or dual 2400W) amp will trip that when playing at decent volume. So all of mine get direct connects to 20A wall receptacles. Also I wouldn't put the sub amps on a UPS, because I know they are going to draw more power than the UPS is rated for. Maybe once the Mega Millions comes thru I can have a dedicated Tesla Powerwall per sub amp.
 

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Oh I forgot to mention, when playing high load material like the EOT intro, prior to the circuit breaker on the Isobar tripping, it causes the SP amps to make some unnatural sounds, presumably as they are starved or input power, prior to the trip. So it certainly wouldn't suprise me if there is audible distortion if you are tickling the edge of a breaker like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #196 (Edited)
I would disagree in that this would depend on load. I have some Tripplite isobars, which I use for sources and non sub amps. However they have a circuit breaker that will trip at 12A. A 4kw or 6kw Speakerpower (or dual 2400W) amp will trip that when playing at decent volume. So all of mine get direct connects to 20A wall receptacles. Also I wouldn't put the sub amps on a UPS, because I know they are going to draw more power than the UPS is rated for. Maybe once the Mega Millions comes thru I can have a dedicated Tesla Powerwall per sub amp.
As far as I know... Powerwalls don't offer surge protection they are stand-by units for grid-down or back-feed only.

A Tesla roof and Walls would be ideal for grid-down but that's definitely something you'd have to roll into the mortgage when it comes time to replace the roof.

You need to get rid of those mov-based isobars though. SurgeX has 15a and 20a units for like $20-120 on amazon and ebay, and the SurgeX's don't have a circuit breaker or fuse so there is another plus. They are rated for full current, however... that's STILL not enough to power a subwoofer amp though. The big-boy amps are actually drawing well over 20a from the wall.

I still haven't found a cheap solution to that. A whole-house protector (i.e. parallel MOV's) is about all you can do cheaply.
I was thinking of getting one of the big-boy Eaton Powersure 800's, but I don't have any place to put it in HT 1.0
They cost about as much as a Powerwall and output about the same amount of power but they do a much better job at actually protecting the load. They don't have a battery though...

I'd like to attempt to run my FP's off my solar system, I think my inverter\ATS could do it, but it would drain the batteries so fast that there wouldn't be any power left come night time. My solar is a lot smaller and weaker than Tesla solar roof. I only have enough roof space to maybe sustain my non-sub loads overnight barely... and that's only AFTER I finish upgrading it to 5kWH worth of panels & batteries! Like 500w x 10hours (i.e. overnight).

Generally I would say a person shouldn't buy into solar to save money.
They should do it to gain grid-independence, either partially or fully.
It's almost easier to buy a house that has it than try to fund it directly yourself.
Solar is new enough and exotic enough that it still isn't found on most homes, even new ones.
Give it another 50-100years and it will be everywhere (if humanity still exists by then.)
Not in our lifetime / our generation though...

It doesn't matter anyways...
I heard that we won't even have cars by 2030-2050. How you ask?
The elites are gonna stop selling them to consumers and/or letting consumers defeat the self-driving AI feature;
and they'll stop selling gas/diesel/propane too.
You'll be taxi'ed by AI. For the green/good of the planet (doublespeak).
You won't be able to go-anywhere that the AI doesn't WANT you to go. It's coming man. It's coming...
The sheeple are polluting THEIR planet you see. May the odds be forever in THEIR zone. hehe! :p

In fact, just like in the 5th element, THIS statement has cost me 333 social-credits, and now the machine won't release my meal allowance:
Thanks!
3081636

Universal-Income Compliance-Pass
:p
 
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