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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do I need a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?

I currently have a Monster Cable MP AV600 Power Protector.


I lost power last night numerous times during the rain storm here in VA (usually for 2-3 seconds, then it came back on).

My equipment is a 52 XBR-6 LCD, PS3, Wii, Denon 3310 receiver, SVS PC12 Plus Sub and DirecTV DVR HD box.

Should I get a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?


When my power went out, it came back on faster than I could turn off my surge or turn off my TV before the power "kicked" back in. This kind of concerns me. Should I be concerned?


Thanks

Riverst
 

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As long as things look normal now - you're probably OK.


In my experience surges and brown outs are more damaging than an occasional quick on/off/on cycle.


I finally bought an APC H15 which mostly just filters - there is no UPS.


There are conflicting answers about UPSes since their output when they are on battery is generally a modified sine wave. If I had anything that I felt was fragile I'd definitely put on a UPS - since the modified sine wave rarely causes damage.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverst /forum/post/18082227


Do I need a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?

I currently have a Monster Cable MP AV600 Power Protector.


I lost power last night numerous times during the rain storm here in VA (usually for 2-3 seconds, then it came back on).

My equipment is a 52 XBR-6 LCD, PS3, Wii, Denon 3310 receiver, SVS PC12 Plus Sub and DirecTV DVR HD box.

Should I get a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?


When my power went out, it came back on faster than I could turn off my surge or turn off my TV before the power "kicked" back in. This kind of concerns me. Should I be concerned?


Thanks

Riverst

The utility generally provides for some sort of reclosing function on their feeders. This equipment allows for automatic clearing of line problems such as tree contact and animal contact. The recloser will open and close a number of times to try and clear the foreign debris. If the system is unsuccessful, it will remain open...and you will then have a power outage.


Power cycling is not generally a problem since your equipment will typically default to an off state as soon as power is restored. This is not the case if you have older style equipment which does not go into standby.


I always recommend a suppressor at the main electrical panel. There is no good reason to do without. A UPS is another story.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I see! I was really worried all night and early this morning about the power outage. I just pull the plug on everything. This afternoon I began looking at better surge protectors=(Headache). I saw different brands by Panamax/Furman, Belkin, Monster, and APC. Seems like there is no"better" between them all. They see to function the same. (Maybe im wrong).

As for as the UPS is concerned: I dont think I need one of those for my HT Set up. Maybe for my PC, but I dont think I would need it for my HT system. (Maybe im wrong again??)

As far as the surge protectors, are there any crowd favorites?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverst /forum/post/18084932


I see! I was really worried all night and early this morning about the power outage. I just pull the plug on everything. This afternoon I began looking at better surge protectors=(Headache). I saw different brands by Panamax/Furman, Belkin, Monster, and APC. Seems like there is no"better" between them all. They see to function the same. (Maybe im wrong).

As for as the UPS is concerned: I dont think I need one of those for my HT Set up. Maybe for my PC, but I dont think I would need it for my HT system. (Maybe im wrong again??)

As far as the surge protectors, are there any crowd favorites?

Well, I generally discount Monster for being overpriced and mediocre... Belkin is fine but nothing too interesting. I think that Panamax and APC are probably the two more popular. I have an APC H-15 - mostly because I got a good deal on it and the fact that I like the LCD on it. It has a % bar graph of load ( I think it's rated at 1500VA max). It also has some cool features like switched outlets and you can set thresholds at which it will boost or cut power to try to keep it +- 10% of 120. I think I paid $100 on sale but they look like 200-300 now... I don't know, maybe there is a new model.


I don't know a whole lot about the Panamax offerings. I think they tend to be pricey but good.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverst /forum/post/18084932


I see! I was really worried all night and early this morning about the power outage. I just pull the plug on everything. This afternoon I began looking at better surge protectors=(Headache). I saw different brands by Panamax/Furman, Belkin, Monster, and APC. Seems like there is no"better" between them all. They see to function the same. (Maybe im wrong).

If those protectors did anything effective, then you can post numeric specs from each manufacturer. Belkin, Monster, APC, etc do not claim any such protection for a glaring and obvious reason. Good luck finding any protection specs from ineffective protector manufacturers.


Even 100 years ago, protection was always about where energy dissipates. Effective protectors make that short connection to the item that provides protection. Why do Belkin, Monster, et al not list each type of surge and protection from that surge? Each have no dedicated and short (ie 'less than 10 feet') connection to earth ground. Simple. No earth ground means no effective protection. IOW why no numeric specs claim that protection.


How much were those protectors? The same circuit sells in a $7 protector sold in the grocery store. But when selling that same ineffective protector circuit for $25 or $150, why would they discuss reality?


Only more responsible companies sell effective protectors. You should know most if not all names for their better reputation. Siemens, Intermatic, Polyphaser, Leviton, Square D, Kieson, or General Electric. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.


How much for that Belkin or Monster? $25? $100 per protected appliance. The effective solution - that is based in over 100 years of well proven science - costs about $1 per protected appliance. Yes, myths promoted by retails scam are that widely believed and promoted. Profits for ineffective protectors are that obscene.


Simply install one 'whole house' protector with the always required earthing that meets and exceed post 1990 National Eletrical code. Energy dissipated without entering the building means no surges. How it is done in every facility that can suffer no surge damage. And not what Belkin, et al want to discuss.


What protects your dishwasher, furnace, air conditioner, dimmers switches, clock radio, bathroom GFCIs, etc. All require the same surge protection. But again, those who learned science rather than retail myths install one 'whole house' protector - and protect everything.


What is inside a UPS? Same thing - just with even smaller numbers. No plug-in UPS claims that protection. Again, simply view numeric spec sheets.


Where does Belkin, Monster, or APC claim any protection in their numeric specs? Where does anyone cite those protection numbers? Nobody does. You cannot find those specs. Those protectors are sold on hearsay - not on well proven reality.


Spend that money, instead, to upgrade what actually does provide surge protection - your earthing. And spend less money for protectors rated to earth even direct lightning strikes - and remain functional. Only ineffective protectors fail during serios surges. Failure (because it is grossly undersized) promotes more myths and sales.


Listed are the responsible manufactures that provide a 'whole hosue' protector. Defined is why energy is harmlessly earthed - does not go hunting destrutively for appliances. Defined is how it was done even 100 years ago by those who learned science - were not educated by retail advertising. Provided is the solution you were seeking from companies with better reputations.
 

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Westom - I've thought about installing a whole house protector but I've never gotten around to picking one out and seeing what's required to install. Sounds like I should look into it further..


From the sounds of it - you don't think that there is any merit to conditioners that buck/boost the power to get it to +-10% of 120v?


Some devices don't handle brown outs very well.... I'd rather a conditioner either try to boost or just shut down all together...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeav /forum/post/18085745


From the sounds of it - you don't think that there is any merit to conditioners that buck/boost the power to get it to +-10% of 120v?

Lights must dim to 50% intensity and all electronics must work just fine. Any buck or boost done by those conditioners is already required inside electronics power supplies. To sell conditioners, they just forget to mention that the same conditioning circuits (and other features) are already inside the supply.


Why do AC mains not vary by more than 5%? Because larger variations can be harmful to motorized appliances (refrigerators, air conditioner, furnace, etc). But electronics must operate and even start with greater voltage variations.


In fact, sometimes we design a brownout creating circuit (inrush current limiter) inside some appliances because brownouts can actually be better for electronics. Again, a fact often not learned to promote those power conditioners.


Many power conditioners are nothing more than power strip protectors. View numeric specs. Little difference. But that same circuit inside a more expensive box called a 'line conditioner', then many will spend maybe $100 more - AND recommend it.


Different electrical anomalies must solved at different locations. Somehow a line conditioner on the power cord will do everything? Nonsense that can be promoted when one does not ask embarrassing questions - especially spec numbers.


Monster Cable has a long reputation of identifying and marketing into scams. For example, Monster promoted speaker wire with polarity. Reverse the wire between speaker and amp. Then sound was inferior - said Monster. Then many could 'hear the difference'. Myths are promoted that easily. Monster sold that speaker wire for $70.


Monster does same with surge protectors. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Package it with expensive paint. Monster sells it for $80 or $150. Same protector circuit sells in grocery stores for $7. If Monster is selling those products, then ... well Monster does not sell 'whole house' protectors. Profit margins are insufficient.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/18086057


Lights must dim to 50% intensity and all electronics must work just fine. Any buck or boost done by those conditioners is already required inside electronics power supplies. To sell conditioners, they just forget to mention that the same conditioning circuits (and other features) are already inside the supply.

I'm not sure I understand/agree. Many power supplies (SMPS) I've seen show acceptable power ranges and I've never seen any rated lower than 85v or so. Many can holdover for a few cycles or perhaps 1/2s but rarely longer. And other non switched power supplies can run on less - but they aren't meant to be.


Some electronics wont even power on under low voltage conditions.


Just not sure what you mean by "..must work fine". I've never heard of that requirement.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeav /forum/post/18086081


I'm not sure I understand/agree. Many power supplies (SMPS) I've seen show acceptable power ranges and I've never seen any rated lower than 85v or so.

Which is exactly what was posted. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity - which says how often voltage goes too low. Which says how often that 'problem' exists.


Never heard of that 'must work at low voltages' requirement? How often have you read and designed to international standards? Even in 1970, computer electronics had to work 'just fine and normal' at that lower voltage. Then that standard included this phrase for even lower voltages. "No Damage Region".


Intel specs for all ATX computer power supplies demand same.


Anything that line conditioner might do is typically already inside the power supply where it can be implemented easier and less expensively. Which numeric spec do you disagree with?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/18086128


Which is exactly what was posted. How often do your lights dim to 50% intensity - which says how often voltage goes too low. Which says how often that 'problem' exists.


Never heard of that 'must work at low voltages' requirement? How often have you read and designed to international standards? Even in 1970, computer electronics had to work 'just fine and normal' at that lower voltage. Then that standard included this phrase for even lower voltages. "No Damage Region".

How often do my lights dim to 50%? Almost never according to the 2 power loggers that I have that log everything to transients to sags. Sure, I'll see 85 or so periodically and N-G swells.


Sure, I've heard must work at low voltages - but big difference between "working" and "not being damaged". And big difference between +- 10% to 20% and 50%.


And believe it or not, I don't read and design to international standards. I was just trying to understand your statements - since I've never seen modern electronics work normally at 60 volts.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeav /forum/post/18086165


I was just trying to understand your statements - since I've never seen modern electronics work normally at 60 volts.

Which it does not have to. If voltage drops that low, then power is removed - ie not cause damage to refrigerator, furnace, washing machine, etc. which might be harmed by low voltage.


Most anything that line conditioner would do is already inside electronics. Many line conditioners are only surge protectors anyway - selling at inflated prices.


Some appliances work at extremely low voltages. Testing to learn how low is normal and not destructive. Tom MacIntyre on 7 Sept 2001 demonstrated this with:

> ... best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac

> down to 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture

> on that set.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
wow seems like a lot of companies are selling Cadillac frames with "Toyota" engines(hahaha!!) No offense to Toyota drivers. I look at the "whole house" surge protectors and it seems like the best solution to get. I understand the theory or stopping the problem at at the source. If i had a electrian that would wire it up (almost free) then i would just on it. I contacted one im my area and he said it would be around 300-400 dollars to install because my house is old. He said NEW constructions (during the build) would be a lot cheaper). Now the plug-in surge units I saw was around 200-600 dollars. That would be around the same as the Whole house unit. So ill have to think about it. I agree with you that Monster is 80% hype and 20% performance as compared with similar units in the same price range.

Another question is why these big time Home theater installs dont install a Whole House Unit. They seem to get a Panamax/furman type unit.

Thanks for the insight. Seems like I have some more researching to do.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverst /forum/post/18088275


Another question is why these big time Home theater installs dont install a Whole House Unit. They seem to get a Panamax/furman type unit.

To be paid to install a 'whole house' solution means they need people who actually understand how electricity works AND (in some locations) have an electrician's license. Install it for little profit. Most will sell a plug-in device (ie Furman) that does virtually nothing useful, only need be plugged in, and has an obscene profit margin.


Lowes and Home Depot sell a Cutler-Hammer solution for less than $50. Sold to homeowners comfortable with electrical wiring and circuit breakers.


If your home is not properly earthed, then some $12 earthing electrodes, 6 AWG wire, and other connecting devices are required. That ground must already exist also for human safety. You must already have earth ground even if not installing surge protection.
 

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Sigh.... Again and again.

Any UPS you could afford is totally unsuitable for AV use. They can not take the inrush surge of big transformers and don't have the power you need. They waste power and are expensive to maintain as big batteries don't last long.


Anything much bigger than a Monster 600, or similar Trip-lite, Panamax, or Furman is not of much use. They do the jobs of surge protection and outlet strip. No strip can do anything useful more than that unless what you are plugging in is so terribly designed that it is unsuitable for use plugged into the wall. A good example is motors that can't take EXTENDED brown-out as they will overheat. No electronics should be effected.


If you ever happen to have an electrician working on your house, by all means add a whole house suppressor into the panel while he is there. It is just basically a good idea, but not a substitute for a good strip.
 

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Westom:


You are correct that Monster and some others are guilty of selling overpriced stuff, however you go way overboard with some of your statements and basically slander some reputable companies IMHO.


1. My video system was on the same circuit as the fridge. Whenever the fridge cycled, there would be pops and/or noise in the audio/video. A $50 unit completely cured the problem, so I would not say they are completely worthless.


2. I am a little baffled about your statements that reputable companies such as Furman, Panamax and APC do not list any specs. All three list detailed specs in their product sheets. I also think Furman makes a compelling case for their design which is not dependent on a cheap MOV not failing.


3. Granted that some very expensive units are not really necessary for home use. However, you seem to be claiming that a $5 unit from the drug store is just as good as a Panamax or Furman, both of which are very heavy duty and well designed. Have you looked a photo of a Furman, etc. with the top off or a schematic? You really believe they are no better than a power strip from China with a 50 cent MOV inside?


4. I agree that a UPS is not generally necessary for home A/V use. However, what about some projectors that need power for the cooling fan to prevent damage after it shuts down?


5. Obviously, having the unit located a few feet from the external house ground is the ideal situation, but how can you say that a surge protector connected to ground with 10 or 12 AWG wire is completely useless? It is a lot better than nothing at all.


6. Whole house protectors are a good idea, but they have their own issues. A good surge can zap the MOV inside and you would never know it. How many people crawl around outside or go into their panel to determine if the MOV no longer works? If the MOV is gone, you have no protection at all.


7. I think it makes sense to have a whole house unit, with individual units next to stuff you are really worried about. This doesn't have to be a $500 unit, but I would not trust my $10,000 plus system to a $5 strip.


8. The reputable companies give a very clear warranty for damage to connected equipment. In your opinion, is this fraudulent? If it were, the class action lawyers would have descended upon them years ago.


All just IMHO. Cheers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimthom1 /forum/post/18096385


You are correct that Monster and some others are guilty of selling overpriced stuff, however you go way overboard with some of your statements and basically slander some reputable companies IMHO.

1. My video system was on the same circuit as the fridge. ...

2. I am a little baffled about your statements that reputable companies such as Furman, Panamax and APC do not list any specs. ...

3. ... However, you seem to be claiming that a $5 unit from the drug store is just as good as a Panamax or Furman, both of which are very heavy duty and well designed. ...

5. ... how can you say that a surge protector connected to ground with 10 or 12 AWG wire is completely useless?...

6. Whole house protectors are a good idea, but they have their own issues. ...

7. This doesn't have to be a $500 unit, ...

8. The reputable companies give a very clear warranty for damage to connected equipment.

Pops and noise when a fridge cycles is how many hundred volts? It is noise. Near zero volts. It sounds loud because millivolts are amplified into a loud noise. You 'feel' is it destructive? Feeling is junk science reasoning. Your every sentence must be tempered by numbers. If a fridge creates a loud pop, then why does the protector not eliminate it? A 20 cent capacitor from Radio Shack may do more.


Numbers - where does Panamax et al provide any numbers for protection? They sell the same protector circuit sold by Monster. Why is Monster in that market? Because Monster so good about identifying scams. Then selling same for even higher profits. If Monster is selling it, then everyone selling that product is probably selling a scam.


Cheap MOVs failing? Panamax et al make no compelling claims. Obvious because you did not post them - with numbers. MOVs are some of the world's best protector devices. But no protector does protection. Protectors are only connecting devices. Divert destructive currents to protection. Why does Panamax et al not discuss this? Then you would see through their hearsay that promotes their product.


Companies with poor reputations are selling the same protector circuit found inside Monster Cable products. Responsible companies that sell a solution well proven by over 100 years of science include Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Polyphaser, Cutler-Hammer, Square D, and General Electric. What is an industry benchmark? If you learned this stuff, then you know of Polyphaser's reputation. Most only know APC, Belkin, Monster, etc who sell products that violate what was known even 100 years ago. Profit margins on the well proven solutions are too small. So Furman does not sell it.


That $5 protector sold in a grocery store IS the same protector circuit selling for $25 or $150 as APC or Monster. If you doubt it, then posted numeric specs to show the difference. But again, my point repeatedly. You are making subjective claims. Not even one spec number cited. That is junk science reasoning. No numbers is how hearsay and myths are promoted. Not an insult to anyone. It is what you do to post logically. How to support technical claims with facts. Where are those APC or Panamax spec numbers? Meanwhile, the well proven solution costs about $1 per protected appliance.


APC, et al have virtually no earth ground. What should be obvious - wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. Somehow a Panamax will absorb in tiny MOVs the hundreds of thousands of joules in a surge? View APC numbers. Then divide joules by 3 (because that is often the only joules that confront one surge. How do hundreds of joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? More damning numbers. You said those numbers exist. Then you posted each with a reason why it is significant. How do its hundreds of joules absorb surges that are hundred of thousands of joules. How does its 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? No problem. You said they have numbers. Please post those numbers to answer both questions.


I never said a 10 or 12 AWG ground wire is useless. Please learn fundamental electrical concepts. Wire diameter is insignificant. Even a ten amp (18 AWG) lamp cord can conduct a surge of up to 60,000 amps. Significant is wire length. To be earthed, a protector must be connected with no sharp wire bends, not inside metallic conduit, short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), ground wires separated from other non-grounding wires, etc. Fundamental electrical concepts that, well, where did APC, Panamax, Furman. Monster, etc discuss any of this? You know plug-in protectors are ineffective because: 1) Has no dedicated wire for the always required earth ground. 2) Manufacturer will not even discuss critical single point earth ground. If they did, sales would be harmed. 3) Manufacturer will not even discuss where energy is dissipated. Somehow it will make energy just disappear?


Effective 'whole house' protector means spending tens or 100 times less money for the well proven solution. Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Effective protection means nobody knew a direct lightning struck existed. Well proven even from 100 years of experience. And violated by what APC, Furman, et al claim.


Best protectors use superior MOVs. Please learn how MOVs really work. If zapped, MOVs were inside an ineffective and poorly designed protector - optimized for profits. Grossly undersizing a protector promotes more sales by failing. Again, numbers. A direct lightning strike is typically 20,000 amps. What do MOVs conduct without damage inside a properly installed 'whole house' protector? Minimal size is 50,000 amps.


A 50,000 amp 'whole house' protectors sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Why is the less expensive solution so massively better. With small profit margins from more responsible companies, and based in 100 years of well proven science; well why is Monster Cable selling the same circuit inside an APC - for even higher price?


You need upgraded earthing and a 'whole house' protector - with or without plug-in garbage from Furman, et al. Any money spent foolishly on plug-in protectors is better redirected into the only thing that provides surge protection - single point earth ground. Why do Belkin and Monster not discuss earthing? Profits. That $3 power strip with expensive paint and ten cent protector parts sells for how much? Just more damning numbers.


Warranty - please learn how free markets work. GM now has warranties superior to everything from Toyota and Honda. That proves GM has superior products? Nonsense. Traditionally, a company with the best 'hyped' warranty has the most inferior product. In surge protection, products that are most highly regarded by professionals have no warranty.


View an APC, et al warranty so chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. At best, you get the protector replaced. Meanwhile effective protectors must remain functional even after earthing direct lightning strikes. A failing protector gets the naive to recommend it because it failed and has a mythical warranty.


Which numeric spec number claims protection? Nothing from Furman, et al claims that protection. They cannot be sued for what they do not claim to provide AND for warranties so chock full of exemptions as not be honored. Why did others forget to mention this?


Reality from even 100 years ago. A bottom line that must exist in your every conclusion. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Your cited protectors have no earth ground AND will not even discuss it. More damning facts. Informed consumers buy whole house' protectors from those much more responsible companies.
 

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westom - I understand your argument about pro-whole house surge protection and the.....issues with surge protection/power conditioning/voo-doo at the outlet - but why the incredibly strong bias against anything other than whole-house protection? Much of the information you've provided is persuasive for the merits of whole house protection... but....


Your tone seems to imply that anyone who has anything other than whole house protection is ignorant and stupid.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeav /forum/post/18097943


Your tone seems to imply that anyone who has anything other than whole house protection is ignorant and stupid.

Simple. If it is so effective, then post the manufacturer's numeric specs that list protection from each type of surge? Why does Monster cable sell a $3 power strip with some expensive paint and ten cent protector parts for ... $150. We should remain quiet? It does not even claim to provide surge protection. Where are the spec numbers?


Let's see. You would spend $100 for a protector that might protect one appliance? That is $100 per protected appliance. Or spend $1 per protected appliance for the solution that is used everywhere that damage cannot happen.


Do munitions dumps spend $100 for Monster Cable? Of course not. A well proven solution is how it is done in munitions dumps - because the less expensive solution actually does protection.


Would you put a Monster Cable protector in a munitions dump? If not, then why would you put it inside your home?


Another reason why everyone needs a 'whole house' protector. View scary pictures to appreciate the danger:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://*******.com/3x73ol

where **** are t i n y u r l and is entitled "Surge Protector Fires" - a fire marshal discusses why the danger exists.
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339


So we should remain quite? Let others waste money on protectors that do not even claim protection in its numeric specs? Where does that energy dissipate? Ineffective protector manufacturers ask that damning question. Who did? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No way around that well proven 100 plus year old reality.


All I have done is ask damning questions with numbers. How many knew the science. How many, instead, only learned from sales propaganda? The informed consumer always demands numbers. A reality that something like 70% of us simply do not do. Would you agree? And how much of this was unknown?
 
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