Surround Sound Format Confusion (Pioneer 1014)

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THX is considered post-processing because it is applied on top of standard decoding and processing modes. For example: after (post) your receiver processes a 2-channel source using PLII or decodes a Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream, you then have the option to apply THX enhancements such as Re-EQ, Timbre Matching, Adaptive Decorrelation, etc. There are plenty of people that like what THX post-processing does for the sound and others (like myself) that never use it. Since you have the feature, push the THX button and see if you like the results (you won't hurt anything by trying it out).
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I would leave MCACC on for room equalization purposes, but I would change the crossovers to better match the frequency response of the speakers. Check the manufacturer's specs for your speakers and set the crossovers slightly higher. This way, bass that the speakers can't reproduce will be re-routed to the subwoofer. The way you have it now (set to Large), your speakers are getting a full range signal (and they're definitely not full range speakers).
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It shouldn't. The THX button should only engage the post-processing. Your speakers' crossovers are controlled separately, by the receiver's bass managment system. Turning surround processing On or Off shouldn't have an effect on the speaker settings.
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Yes. When you see 2-channel material that is labeled 'Dolby Surround' it means that the original 4 channels (Left, Right, Centre, Surround) were folded down to 2 channels using Dolby Surround encoding. You have the option to listen to this material with 2 speakers or use matrix decoding (PLII, Neo:6) to turn it back into surround sound.


BTW, congrats on the taking the plunge. Glad it was worth it.


Best,

Sanjay

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So I ended up with the front array of the Klipsch RB-25s and the RC-25. The former is listed at 49Hz-20kHz ±3dB with the latter listed at 69Hz-20kHz ±3dB. I know I can set the crossover on the 1014 at either 50Hz or 80Hz. 80Hz is were it is set now (also recommended for THX). According to your post, I should leave them at 80Hz, yes?
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So you are saying that even though MCACC sets them to Large, I should set them to Small? I felt like I wasn't getting as much bass in music as I liked when they were set to small, but I can do a little more experimenting to verify that impression. Do I understand correctly that if I set them to small and the crossover at 80Hz, the RB-25s won't be asked to do anything between 49Hz and 80Hz, whereas if I leave them at Large, they'd still do that range? That would account for my impression that I got more bass from them in Large than in Small.
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But the 1014 doesn't recognize it as anything other than Stereo, so it is just especially suited to PLII or Neo:6 to retranslate that back into more channels? Or do I have something set up incorrectly?
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The absolute best moment was the other night when I found that at the start of one of my Dolby Digital DVDs, there was the THX intro. Cheese-y, I know, but I sat my wife down, cranked it up, put it on THX and let it rip. She adored it and now totally understands why I spent my time with you wonderful souls here trying to understand how to get the best results I could.


Sanjay, you have been a great source of information and a welcome voice in this quest, and I truly appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions! Many fond regards to you.

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Yes. That will have the added benefit of taking some of the burden off the 1014's internal amplifiers because it will only be responsible for reproducing frequencies above 80Hz. The more difficult bass frequencies will be handled by the amp in your powered subwoofer.
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That's the way it normally works: setting any speaker to Large will turn off the crossover to that speaker, sending it a full range signal. On some receivers, setting a speaker pair to Large will instantly remove crossover options from the menu. On other receivers, you'll still be able to see (and change) the crossover settings, but they should have no impact on the sound (since the speaker should be getting a full range signal). The 1014 may deviate from this convention, but I don't know the receiver well enough to say either way.
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Don't worry if your receiver doesn't recognize matrix encoding on 2-channel sources; most don't, unless the source material is specifcally flagged (which is rare). When playing back 2-channel material, matrix encoded or not, do a brief check to see how it sounds with PLII or Neo:6. Then use whichever one sounds better to you. If neither one is satisfying, you always have to option to switch back to 2-speaker playback.


You should also experiment with 2-channel music, and see if you like it in surround sound. It may take a while to get used to it (since we're initially not used to listening to our CDs with 5 speakers), but give it time. The PLII Music mode has a few adjustable parameters that can really help tailor the results to your personal tastes. As you try these out, you'll eventually find the settings that strike a good balance, where the surrounds will add excitment without distracting from the music. Any adjustments you make to the PLII Music mode won't affect any of the other modes.


Since some of this is new to you, don't think in terms of what is the right or wrong way to play back music and movies. Instead, concentrate on what sounds most enjoyable. If that means 2 speakers for some material and 5.1 speakers for other material, then so be it. Always keep in mind that our systems are all about personal pleasure.
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Those intros and demos are designed to really show off your system, with a few seconds of sonic fireworks. Cheesy yes, but I like 'em too!


BTW, thank you for the kinds words. Fond regards back to you.


Best,

Sanjay

Sanjay, you have been a great source of information and a welcome voice in this quest, and I truly appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions! Many fond regards to you.

QUOTE BY:bldxyz /\\

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I agree with most of your posts as well and all though i understand most of this stuff quite well, i can't convey those thoughts into words as well as you seem to and in terms most of us can understand as well.Kudos!



bldxyz, the only thing i would like to add here is this, try setting the fronts to large and the sub to yes and plus. Leaving the crossover at 80. This will send bass info to the fronts as well as the sub. Several of us that have this reciever here at AVS feel this is better than all small and crossed at 80 alone. Just try it and see if it sounds better to you and if not you can always go back to all small and 80.

One advantage to the 1014 is the ability to change the speaker settings while in listening mode. It is easy to change speakers from large to small and instantly hear the effect. I am still playing with this but I found changing my center to large, even though MCACC set it at small, sounds better. My fronts are large but the surrounds are set to small.


DANGER - I am going to ramble a bit here. I question the assumption that sending lower frequencies to the speakers is a waste of power. Speakers will only take power if they use it. They are a current demand device. So if you send a 50 hz signal to them and they don't produce any 50 hz they won't draw any power from the amp. If they sound good then do it. I think it depends on the speakers whether they will sound better set at large or small. Some cheaper speakers can sound boomy at certain frequencies, kind of a forced low end. In those cases you want to avoid sending them anything below 80hz. This is the case with my current surround speakers. I could be wrong about this assumption as this is a gut response, but a lot depends on how much power you need and bass takes a lot of power. It probably becomes more important it you are running 7 speakers, the impact surges could tax the receivers total power capability of (480 watts?, I don't have my manual handy). In those cases it is nice to have a 500 watt sub doing it's job. There is a balance between receiver, speaker settings and sub that is different for everyones setup.


I have had my 1014 for several weeks and am still tweaking it. Have fun!


Gene

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(and the ensuring discussion if speakers draw power in ranges unused...)

Basic question: what is the consequence of there being a burden on the amplifier? In what ways would I notice, other than what sounds best?


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Ah ha! Center width, Dimension, Panorama! (Amazing what happens when one reads the manual) I will play with these...


To date, and to the certain dismay of the purists here, I have been using the 1014's Advanced Surround Mode called 7 Channel Stereo, largely because it appears to send more signal to the rear speakers than any other mode, and I get a fuller sound that way. I think the reason this appeals to me is that when I'm listening to music, I'm rarely just sitting in the "listening position"


Also, what I can't figure out is if I can set the speaker setting differently for different inputs: example: I might prefer LARGE/PLUS for music, but SMALL/YES for Movies... I might even prefer NO for the Center in music, for example. Seems troublesome to switch back and forth, though.

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Removing the most difficult load from your receiver's amplifier section will allow those amps to have more headroom, better dynamics, etc. How audible the difference will be depends on your system and hearing. At the very least there will be less stress placed on the amps over their life.
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Play with only one parameter at a time. It will really give you a good understanding of what each adjustment does to the sound.
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The 7-Channel Stereo mode doesn't do any surround processing. It copies the 2-channel source to each pair of speakers (fronts, sides, rears). The centre speaker gets a summed L+R signal. It doesn't attempt to create a soundstage or specific imaging but instead fills the room with sound. If you like that effect, keep using it; especially for casual music listening.


Best,

Sanjay

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So more basic questions:

1. When you say "headroom", do you mean that I will tend to be able to have more room to play it louder?
2. When you say dynamics, I don't know what you mean... Sorry![/list=1]
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   Originally posted by sdurani The 7-Channel Stereo mode doesn't do any surround processing. It copies the 2-channel source to each pair of speakers (fronts, sides, rears). The centre speaker gets a summed L+R signal. It doesn't attempt to create a soundstage or specific imaging but instead fills the room with sound. If you like that effect, keep using it; especially for casual music listening.

   That's kind of what I figured, and something I've wanted for a long, long time. My old receiver could do A/B for speakers, but couldn't set the level of each speaker (or speaker pair) independently, so my two different sets of speakers, even when set up on opposite sides of the room, weren't equally able to send out sound.
   
   
   Thanks again for your posts!

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even though the channel is advertised as Dolby 5.1, it doesn't mean that DTV or the source programmer is sending it to you in 5.1. this might be what you're experiencing. there's many threads about this on Tivo community forums: http www tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7 EDIT: sorry this forum will not allow me to post links.


can someone tell me if the 1014 has a built in equalizer that can be used to adjust music? i think there is some form of EQ for use with the MCACC thingy, but i would like to know if i can adjust standard music with it. if there is one, how many frequencies can be adjusted(IE 9 band)?

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Yes, plus the amp will have more power for momentary spikes (loud bursts) in the soundtrack.
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The ability to go effortlessly from soft to loud, and do it in an instant.


Best,

Sanjay

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I actually read that thread, and this is a different issue. The 5.1 content is labelled Dolby Digital, and I'm not experiencing times where the guide says it is and the receiver says it isn't. What I was more specifically referring to was Dolby Surround, which Sanjay explained is simply an encoding method.

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Yes, it does: 40 Hz, 125 Hz, 250 Hz, 4kHz and 13k kHz, plus Trim. Additionally, these adjustments can be made per speaker, or across all speakers. Furthermore, when listening to Stereo sources (not using any surround processing), you can adjust Tone and Bass.

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You probably already know this but I'll repeat it anyway. "Dolby Digital" is simply a compression scheme, like MP3 or DTS or AAC (that iTunes uses). DD can be any number of channels from 1 to 5.1. When your receiver encounters 2-channel material that has been compressed using Dolby Digital (i.e., a DD 2.0 soundtrack) it has no way of knowing whether it is plain stereo or matrix encoded (in this case, using Dolby Surround matrix encoding). So when you play 2-channel sources (DD, PCM, analog, etc) through your receiver, you'll have to choose the playback mode manually.


Best,

Sanjay

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So, just in the spirit of experimentation, I did this (went from Large/Plus to Small/Yes). I'm going to listen in various modes for a few days to see if I like it.


But anyway, I know this was covered in another thread, but I noticed, especially at low volumes, that the subwoofer's Auto-On setting didn't trigger on when sent as Small/Yes at low volumes. It triggered on when I increased the system volume from about -35 db to -25 db. (Yes, I adjusted the volume of the sub and re-ran MCACC until the sub level was close to 0 ---- -0.5db, in fact.) Is this what the Midnight setting on the Pioneer 1014 is for?