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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This weekend, I had the opportunity to audition a really interesting surround sound install. I want to share what I experienced and see if anyone else is familiar with the technology.


Before I elaborate, let me explain my frame of reference. I’m definitely not an audiophile, however, I do have a dedicated home theater with a 7.1 system (Axiom Audio speakers and an SVS sub all driven by a Harmon Kardon 7100 Receiver). It’s definitely not “high end”, but I think it’s a decent budget system. My theater room is “acoustically treated” (bass traps, absorption, diffusion, etc.), maybe not optimally, but I’ve been very satisfied with the sound … until this weekend.


If you have visited the “DIY Screen” forum, it’s likely you’ve come across posts from “MississippiMan”. Recently, MM “held my hand”, through a DIY screen project. During our exchanges he mentioned he was going to be visiting a friend in my area and invited me to audition the surround sound system he was installing in his friend’s home (I didn’t pick up on it in the forum, but turns out part of his business is designing and installing such systems). It sounded interesting, plus was an opportunity to meet another home theater enthusiast.


The installation was in a family room. It had hardwood floors, plaster walls and lots of windows… in other words, plenty of untreated, reflective surfaces. The room wasn’t very large (maybe 12’ x 16’… guessing). The speakers… now here’s the part that really surprised me… weren’t really speakers. They were transducers mounted behind the sheetrock. They weren’t even mounted optimally, as they were in the ceiling because there wasn’t enough room in the walls (old house). Since they were behind the sheetrock, I couldn’t actually see the transducers, but MM pointed out to me where each of them was installed. If I recall correctly, each of the 7 channels consisted of 2 transducers.


Well, when MM popped in a DVD and fired up the receiver, I could not believe what I was hearing! I was in the middle of this wide open, crystal clear sound field. The highs were high. The lows were low. All the directional cues were where you’d expect them. It just defied logic (my logic, any way). How could that kind of sound be emanating from a sheetrock ceiling? Remember, the room was far from ideal from an acoustic perspective, but it didn’t seem to matter.


MississippiMan, did his best to explain the theory behind it all, but what stood out was the fact that such systems are not, relatively speaking, that expensive. I think each transducer was in the range of $60 - $80. For the installation I saw, that would work out to $160 a channel. Of course, you have to add-in installation costs (I'm sure it varies for each install), but even then I’m thinkin’ it’s got to come out to be a lot less than any other kind of custom install with traditional speakers.


I know I’m sounding like a “fanboy”. Maybe there are downsides, but I was truly amazed by what I heard… and didn’t see. It was very cool! I never knew such a thing existed.


Anybody out there familiar with this technology? If so, what do you think?
 

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The acoustical accuracy of such systems is, to use a technical term, sh*tty. If you are out to simply make a lot of noise around you, then they would serve the purpose.
 

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This was really cool playing with it High School Science class.
Not so cool now that I want it to sound really good.



Fun to play with still for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well, I'm not going to take on an accoustical engineer



Terry, have you worked with and/or heard such systems? (I'm assuming so) This is the only one I've ever experienced and it sounded really good to me. In what ways should I have experienced the "sh*tty accoustical accuracy"? I was watching "Hurt Locker" and heard shells bouncing off concrete like they were dropping in front of me. Everything seem crystal clear, not at all muddy. Maybe that's not what you mean though.
 

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I've demo'ed one of these systems, with a stand alone subwoofer (2.1). $600 per "speaker". OK for background music and high marks for steath.


Would I want it for my home theater? No.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Folsom /forum/post/18278430


Well, I'm not going to take on an accoustical engineer



Terry, have you worked with and/or heard such systems? (I'm assuming so) This is the only one I've ever experienced and it sounded really good to me. In what ways should I have experienced the "sh*tty accoustical accuracy"? I was watching "Hurt Locker" and heard shells bouncing off concrete like they were dropping in front of me. Everything seem crystal clear, not at all muddy. Maybe that's not what you mean though.

Sound effects stuff like that are much easier than reproducing a real voice or musical instrument.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Well, I appreciate everyone's opinions and experiences shared. Thanks for weighing in.


I guess my final thoughts on the topic are this...

Though I did not do any critical listening of instrumental or vocal tracks, there was nothing in the audio tracks of 5th Element or Hurt Locker (DTS-HD) that hinted, to me, at any limitations. I already mentioned my take on the sound effects, but the dialogue was also quite clear and coming from the right places. It was a "big" sound, but it also seemed quite controlled/precise... again, to me.


Could installation/implementation explain any of the discrepancies between my experience and what others have experienced? Other poster's comments seem to imply limitations in the technology itself. I'd honestly be interested, if anyone is willing to take the time, in hearing about the audio principles "in play". Of course, if anyone is so willing, bear in mind that I'm a layman.


Finally, I'll add that the gentleman whose home the system was installed in is the owner of a consumer electronics distributorship and retail outlet. I imagine he has access to a fairly broad range of audio products, yet he chose to go this route in his home. I didn't ask what was behind his choice, but I took it as an affirmation of the technology, or at least, the implementation of it (conjecture on my part though).


Again, thanks to those of you who have posted.
 

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hey dave maybe you could get MM to come chime in. I'm pretty interested in this. (will I do it.... nope) but still would like to hear the science behind it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Folsom /forum/post/18281935


Could installation/implementation explain any of the discrepancies between my experience and what others have experienced?

Sure. What other systems have you heard and what would you consider a reference of how things should sound? Some of us have lots of experience of a broad range of systems and rooms.

Quote:
Other poster's comments seem to imply limitations in the technology itself. I'd honestly be interested, if anyone is willing to take the time, in hearing about the audio principles "in play". Of course, if anyone is so willing, bear in mind that I'm a layman.

Sure. First, materials used for architectural structure and finishing are simply not acoustically appropriate for accurate sound reproduction. They have their own physical properties and these are usually undefined in terms of acoustics. There are reasons why speakers are not built with plaster or wood as their radiating surfaces. Second, these relatively massive structures are driver by a small engine which leads to flexing and the creation of spurious noises.

Quote:
Finally, I'll add that the gentleman whose home the system was installed in is the owner of a consumer electronics distributorship and retail outlet. I imagine he has access to a fairly broad range of audio products, yet he chose to go this route in his home. I didn't ask what was behind his choice, but I took it as an affirmation of the technology, or at least, the implementation of it (conjecture on my part though).

Other possibilities are that his wife demanded such an occult setup or that he simply doesn't care that much about sound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
CableMan, perhaps he will. He'd certainly do a much better job of explaining the principles behind what I heard.


Kal, I'm going only by what I've heard in my and friend's systems. I imagine none would be considered reference by a professional. That said, none of them were/are HTIB, and I believe the transducer installation I heard exceeded any/all of them.


I follow your logic regarding speaker materials, but it seems like an apples and oranges kind of comparison. Clearly, the materials (aluminum, carbon fiber, paper, etc.) that go into speaker cones are designed as they are to radiate energy from a very small surface area. However, the transducer system is designed, I believe, to take advantage of a VERY large radiating surface. Given these apparently different design parameters, when it comes to reproducing accurate sound, is it possible that the material used for the small radiating surface of a speaker plays a proportionately larger role in the sound reproduction of the speaker than does the material used for the massive radiating surface of a transducer system?


What kind of flexing is happening with a transducer system? I don't think the transducer is causing significant movement of the overlaying surface. It's just transferring vibrations/resonance's, right? I don't know. I'm in waaay over my head here. I just know that what I heard sounded REALLY good to me.


Kal, have you heard these types of systems? I know MM has the one installation I listened to in Bergen County NJ, and is going to be starting another somewhere in the Metro NY area. You guys should get together and listen. If after that you still think such systems sound like crap. well, then you can chalk it up to my inexperienced/bad ears.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Folsom /forum/post/18286054


I follow your logic regarding speaker materials, but it seems like an “apples and oranges” kind of comparison. Clearly, the materials (aluminum, carbon fiber, paper, etc.) that go into speaker cones are designed as they are to radiate energy from a very small surface area. However, the transducer system is designed, I believe, to take advantage of a VERY large radiating surface. Given these apparently different design parameters, when it comes to reproducing accurate sound, is it possible that the material used for the small radiating surface of a speaker plays a proportionately larger role in the sound reproduction of the speaker than does the material used for the massive radiating surface of a transducer system?

Perhaps but you missed the point that the speaker's materials were chosen for their appropriate acoustical properties while the wall was chosen for its structural and cosmetic properties and are inappropriate for acoustical reproduction. There are many large surface loudspeakers and, while some may approach a wall in dimensions, none use any similar materials. See this example: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_201

Quote:
What kind of flexing is happening with a transducer system? I don’t think the transducer is causing significant movement of the overlaying surface. It’s just transferring vibrations/resonance’s, right? I don’t know…. I’m in waaay over my head here. I just know that what I heard sounded REALLY good to me.

If the transducer does not move, how will it move the air? If the air doesn't move, how can you hear the sound? (Yes, there are exotic exceptions such as ion drivers.)

Quote:
Kal, have you heard these types of systems? I know MM has the one installation I listened to in Bergen County NJ, and is going to be starting another somewhere in the Metro NY area. You guys should get together and listen. If after that you still think such systems sound like crap…. well, then you can chalk it up to my inexperienced/bad ears.

I have heard several of these at industry shows and heard nothing that I would want in my home. Looked fine, of course.
 

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How to "weigh in" without tipping the Boat over.....brace yourself for a storm of information.

Originally Posted by Dave Folsom

I follow your logic regarding speaker materials, but it seems like an “apples and oranges” kind of comparison. Clearly, the materials (aluminum, carbon fiber, paper, etc.) that go into speaker cones are designed as they are to radiate energy from a very small surface area. However, the transducer system is designed, I believe, to take advantage of a VERY large radiating surface. Given these apparently different design parameters, when it comes to reproducing accurate sound, is it possible that the material used for the small radiating surface of a speaker plays a proportionately larger role in the sound reproduction of the speaker than does the material used for the massive radiating surface of a transducer system?

Perhaps but you missed the point that the speaker's materials were chosen for their appropriate acoustical properties while the wall was chosen for its structural and cosmetic properties and are inappropriate for acoustical reproduction. There are many large surface loudspeakers and, while some may approach a wall in dimensions, none use any similar materials. See this example: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_201


Kal,

Of course to the initiated or unaware, the prospect of Gypsum doing anything but a lousy job producing audio seems rather remote. Especially if one has decided experience with convention speaker design.


However, the fact that a transducer can create an accurate, full frequency resonant response from such materials as Drywall, Wood, Resin Plastics, Composite material....even Metal is based on two important things. Effective and efficient transfer of sound from the voice Coil to the surface....and accurate and distortion free signal source/amplification. How does that happen? Well not all "Transducers" are created the same, or are equal in performance potential. I for one have almost intimate knowledge of every Transducer and application for them that exists, having created more than a few myself.


A Transducer refresher.

Sound Advance (RIP
) was a "Exciter based" panel speaker designed to insert flush into wall,(..with much labor involved...) presenting a thin, sheet-like diaphragm to the Room. You couldn't wall paper it, nor cover it with Paneling. It lacked bass response (...like the Magnepan which needed a sub as well...) and needed substantial EQ'ing, (...it "Honked" @ Mid-frequencies...) and if it failed, a 12.5" x 18" section of Wall had to be "reopened" and needed closure/re-finishing upon replacement. It cost too much, was too hard to install, delivered to little, yet even still it won many advocates simply because it was expensive...and above all else, portended to be "Invisible". Seldom was it in fact, often still showing a slight "shadow" if not taped-textured perfectly. One thing to note; it was years after it's inception (15) before they dared to suggest it's use for "Theater" and after they did, the backlash drove the brand down.

Stealth Audio uses a Hybrid system consisting of an Exciter (small transducer) for Highs/Mids and a conventional Woofer set behind a Composite Polymer Panel. It too must be inserted into a wall cavity, and it too had better be finished out "perfectly". Most have reported bass as being anemic and highs screechy. But once again, much is forgiven for the sake of invisibility. But cost rears up right alongside installation considerations, and when combined with mediocre performance.....well, why bother?

Solid Drive is more akin to being a true "Solid Resonating" Audio Transducer system. It attaches to a frame that suspends between studs, and drywall/wood is then pressed/attached to the flat surface of the suspended frame.


For the first 3 years of it's existence it was a Dual Transducer system, one for Mids Highs...one for Bass. Invisible.....and it used the room's veener/framing to create resonant sound frequencies. It did/still requires a special Framework, and it's still quite expensive per unit. However at least it now comes as a Full range unit. How does it sound? Just muffled and indistinct enough to limit it's use to those who don't know it's muffled and indistinct....and who are infatuated with the whole "Invisible" idea enough to look past any discrepancies in sonic accuracy.
Clark Absolute Tactile Transducers. Pretty much the "reference Tactile" to many higher end advocates of thumpin' bass into one's rump. Floors too. It's design was actually Full Range, and it's original model truly a Transducer on a massive dose of steroids. But it's design also precluded mounting it vertically, and even if one could have done so, it's tactile force per inch would have shook walls so badly at any appreciable volume that any advantage of being invisible would have been lost in all the legal proceedings.



Oh yeah....like Sound Advance, the Clark started out priced horribly expensive in an attempt to convince A/V enthusiasts that since it cost so much it had to be worth every penny. It was over-engineered and too narrowly directed, market wise. That is why now it's available on Parts Express.



Blame that on the next two offerings because they hold true to the original concept of "transducers resonating solids " the easiest way, and one of 'em was in existence doing so since 1962.


Both Sound Advance and Clark were limited in their design potential because at the time of their conception there were patent issues that forced them to take different approaches. The simplest way was already spoken for, and they simply took a different path.


True Audio Transducers require only a 12" diameter 5/8" thick mounting Board that accepts the Transducer via a Threaded Screw insert. That assembly is then either suspended across the Stud Framing (Wall or Ceiling) using flexible Nylon Webbing, with the assembly pulled tight across the space until it is essentially "spring loaded" so as to push against the Sheet Rock that will cover it. After the Sheet Rock is applied, 4 to 6 Drywall screws are shot through the drywall into the Board, cleating it firmly to the back side of the Drywall.


Now, an area up to 8' in diameter of the Drywall actually becomes the Speaker Cone. It doesn't move though....that is reserved for the Transducer. The Travel of the Voice Coil is accomplished by the entire Speaker Magnet moving back and forth instead of the opposite. That leaves all the remaining energy to allow for the dispersion of sound frequencies into, through, and across the surface of the material involved.



Ok....there are two other "Players" left. The Rolen Star 308 and the HAS (Hidden Audio Systems) 801


Both are true "magnet-voice coil" drivers that impart their energy via a small contact area, much the same way as a Tuning Fork imparts it's resonant frequency to a Piano Sound Board via it's slender "flute" as the latter is held in contact with that solid. No one ever states that the frequencies produced by Tuning Forks to tune Pianos are incorrect or of poor fidelity. They are "reference' and the sound produced accurate even though it is created by resonant transfer.


True Audio Transducers require only a 12" diameter 5/8" thick mounting Board that accepts the Transducer via a Threaded Screw insert. That assembly is then either suspended across the Stud Framing (Wall or Ceiling) using flexible Nylon Webbing, with the assembly pulled tight across the space until it is essentially "spring loaded" so as to push against the Sheet Rock that will cover it. After the Sheet Rock is applied, 4 to 6 Drywall screws are shot through the drywall into the Board, cleating it firmly to the back side of the Drywall.


Now, an area up to 8' in diameter of the Drywall actually becomes the Speaker Cone. It doesn't move though....that is reserved for the Transducer. The Travel of the Voice Coil is accomplished by the entire Speaker Magnet moving back and forth instead of the opposite. That leaves all the remaining energy to allow for the dispersion of sound frequencies into, through, and across the surface of the material involved.


Well a Audio Transducer does exactly the same thing, only across the entire audible Frequency range (20-20,000 ideally...35-17,500 in everyday use.)


That would be WITH Drywall, Wood Paneling, and Plastics/Composites/Glass


Yes, they all can indeed and do sound different, and react differently to varied input, be it frequencies or power...or a combination of both. Hmmmm...., sounds a bit like any regular speaker to me. Only now, directionality has been mitigated, and accuracy can be as good as one can design into the equation. Equalization can mitigate unwanted and unexpected instances of adverse, non-harmonic resonate sounds. Fortunately that is seldom any real issue at all.

Quote:

What kind of flexing is happening with a transducer system? I don’t think the transducer is causing significant movement of the overlaying surface. It’s just transferring vibrations/resonance’s, right? I don’t know…. I’m in waaay over my head here. I just know that what I heard sounded REALLY good to me.
If the transducer does not move, how will it move the air? If the air doesn't move, how can you hear the sound? (Yes, there are exotic exceptions such as ion drivers.)


Kal, it's just that sort of misunderstanding about how it's done and what can be done that leads many to discount the principle out of hand. Your a Pro so I'll try not to preach to the Choir...but sound does NOT require that it be delivered by obtrusive amounts of, and / or gross changes in air pressure (SPL)


Imagine that you made a Speaker Cone 8 feet in diameter. Your going to drive that Monster with a huge 10 lb magnet/3" voice coil. The size of the Cone dictates that it be at least 1/2" thick. Let's say you made it from Carbon Fiber to minimize weight and add rigidity without undue mass. You suspend it on a massive, non-resonant frame, and add a "somewhat" flexible Edge Surround to allow the Cone some freedom to react to the "in-out" motion of the Voice Coil's throw.


Well, at any volume that would be both obtainable AND could be tolerated, you'd probably NEVER see that cone traveling in and out....not even from 12" away. especially with most Mid range and highs, transfer into the room medium occurs as a "resonant transfer through the air" Pushing such into a room only creates issues than can often detract from the end desired result. Accurate and precise sound that does not adversely affect the room's structure, nor get affected by the same.


What happens is this... the pressure of the room's air volume comes up against a resonating surface, and the energy (resonant) contained within and on the surface of the cone cascades into the mass (air volume) in a chain reaction of resonating force applied and transferred.


A Flute or Bass Oboe might start out pushing frequencies, but after a short travel all that remains is the "cascade' effect through the air.


Woth a Transducer system your actively resonating air...and really, EVERY speaker does exactly that. The difference is that few of us ever get up close and personal to a 8' Full range speaker (Micheal Fox notwithstanding...
) so instead most must settle for 6" to 18" woofers that toss their Bass frequencies into a room. Such Speakers must 'spread' via displaced air volume the Mid-range frequencies....and they must shoot Highs out of small drivers like Lasers, or disperse them via ribbons or Diffusive Horns. Most of the very most expensive Speaker designs out there try to disperse sound, not shoot it out. Omni-Directionality is a desired trait in a Speaker, but so few can accomplish anything even close to 100 degree dispersion on average.


A well designed Transducer system creates multiple 180 degree hemispheres of sound that radiate 360 degrees "off Axis" across from the epicenter of Transducer. (...that is to say, a 1/2 sphere...) Every frequency can only travel to a point where it's energy slows to "saturate' that specific area and cause accurate (hopefully) and faithful reproduction of that given frequency. In a very real sense, the surface can and does become a full range speaker, or one of a selected frequency (ala; individual dedicated Solid Drive units, or Audio Transducers driving off Crossovers) and no one area's frequency reproduction intrudes upon or counteracts against another area.


The Accuracy of resonant reproduction does depend upon the material of the structure...but only inasmuch as it also does when such materials also interact with the end results of "almost" any conventional Speakers that is delivering sound into a enclosed/open area. Bass Traps serve to absorb energy so that the bass frequencies won't rebound, or be adversely imparted into the structure itself. Cloth inserts help restrain intense Mid-range and bullet trajectory-like Highs.


If instead you can accurately resonate specific areas of the room for sound reproduction, that self same "activation" creates a "Sound Masking" effect that works to disperse or refract sound coming from elsewhere, effectively canceling out the unwanted reflections or absorption.


A true Audio Transducer's ability to do that far better than any conventional speaker is why Industry and the Military use it almost exclusively for critical sound masking applications.

Quote:

Kal, have you heard these types of systems? I know MM has the one installation I listened to in Bergen County NJ, and is going to be starting another somewhere in the Metro NY area. You guys should get together and listen. If after that you still think such systems sound like crap…. well, then you can chalk it up to my inexperienced/bad ears.

I have heard several of these at industry shows and heard nothing that I would want in my home. Looked fine, of course.[/quote]


I'm absolutely sure you've only heard Stealth or Solid Drive. Too bad that. Unless you attended CEDIA '97 in Atlanta where i had built a "real" Theater room from 2x4's, Drywall, Wainscot Cherry paneling w/Chair Rail, Sub Floor (with 12 Aura Tactiles) 73" RPTV built Flush into the wall looking like a Giant Plasma, Adcom Amps. 7.1 Yamaha system using 56 Transducers (6 each x 4 for the R&L mains + Effects - 8 Center - 4 ea. Surround. There was nothing like it then, and never has been anything like it at CEDIA since. Why? Too expensive to do at such a Show, and strangely enough, the market was far better catering to Builders and Retrofit specialists than dedicated high End Installers. By keeping the whole thing confined to those who both knew how to design and install such systems, and who appreciated the differences in time spent doing so, affordability, and flexibility in placement and room decor, the price of such systems (affordability) was kept down, and the potential issues like SA-Stealth and Solid Drive encountered (poor designs and installations...promises made that could never be kept, performance wise...) were completely avoided.


I want to be absolutely clear on this one point. I'm 32 years into this technology, and I've designed and installed such systems both Commercially and Resident-ally that would defy the imagination of almost anyone who experiences them. And I've done tiny little Bonus Room Theaters as well. One thing I learned at the start is that you never send a Boy to do a Man's Job (...too few units for too large a room---or trying to cater to too high a volume expectation) nor ever make claims that cannot be kept...and exceeded.


Drywall can and does resonate accurately across 40hz to 17,500 Khz...but only if it's installed onto the studs firmly, and the signal source/amplification can impart enough energy effectively to FORCE the material to respond to it's machinations. Yeah...FORCE. The molecules must receive enough energy that they fall into a sympathetic resonant state. Otherwise, they WILL resist and make sounds like you hear when a external sound wave collides with the surface and simply "shakes" it.


A good wood surface (I love 5/8" Birch paneled rooms) is even better, and easier to bend to one's desires sound-wise. At the other end of the scale is Glass, a perfect surface for a Transducer because it has density with low mass per thickness/weight. That allows it to resonate extremely precisely with the least amount of power required.


To that effect, in 1978 more than 1500 Automobile systems using one or more Transducers mounted on the front & rear windshields were installed in the Mid-West. This was "Pre BOSE" and those cars could eat alive any 6" x 9" speaker system. Of course they needed true Amplification that was pretty pricey back then,(no Power Boosters) and Tape heads that had Line-Outs (very rare and expensive back then too) Auto Accident Liability issues (flying 2.2 lb magnets) killed that application but it lives on today in Van/Boat/Yacht systems where great sound and no cosmetic concerns go hand in hand.


Transducers are not for everyone. Many who have cemented opinions against such things are the hardest to convince. But they can become the biggest advocates of such if they actually hear the true potential of the concept.


After all, when something is "invisible", hearing is believing, but "seeing" must be considered as being out of the question. That's what makes it so kewel.



Sadly though, the nature of Transducers and the care they need in design and installation restricts it almost completely to Custom Home Installer genre. (...excepting Commercial uses...) You certainly won't see them on Parts Express.
And look as you might, you probably won't find them anywhere else either. Personally I never have worried about trying to present them to a mass market, nor have I tried to present them on AVS besides one instance in 2002. (an 88 Transducer 7.5 channel system) It was so far out there that no one could begin to accept it let alone understand it.


Funny coincidence is that it too was in New Jersey.



But someday perhaps a learned individual such as yourself might get to hear something that might make you get a little crazy. Just ask. It obviously did exactly that to Dave, and that example surely was nothing like the big one that was at CEDIA '97



The one Dave listened to?


7 channels x 2 Transducers (14 total)

12" Powered Sub

Carver CG Receiver (200 wpc)

Sony BD Player


......and that was/is all.


You cannot deny the fun in seeing Jaws' drop when someone learns where the sound is coming from.


Dave sure looked amazed. To tell the truth, even I had low expectations considering the room involved, but as in so many times in the past, the Transducers made me believe otherwise.


...well, the Cinema Grand didn't hurt things much either,
 

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Quote:
I received a Link to this thread...so here I am.

Me, too. I read your entire post and, I am afraid, I do not find it convincing although it is apparent that a lot of engineering has gone into these efforts. Admittedly, if this can really be accomplished it would quite desirable for many people.

Quote:
However, the fact that a transducer can create an accurate, full frequency resonant response from such materials as Drywall, Wood, Resin Plastics, Composite material....even Metal is based on two important things. Effective and efficient transfer of sound from the voice Coil to the surface....and accurate and distortion free signal source/amplification.

Sure but you also need to move the surface and it needs to respond and radiate the sound. Let's not skip over this.

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How does that happen? Well not all "Transducers" are created the same, or are equal in performance potential. I for one have almost intimate knowledge of every Transducer and application for them that exists, having created more than a few myself.

Fine.

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Sound Advance (RIP ) ..

We need not discuss the failures, do we?

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Stealth Audio uses a Hybrid system consisting of an Exciter (small transducer) for Highs/Mids and a conventional Woofer set behind a Composite Polymer Panel. It too must be inserted into a wall cavity, and it too had better be finished out "perfectly". Most have reported bass as being anemic and highs screechy. But once again, much is forgiven for the sake of invisibility. But cost rears up right alongside installation considerations, and when combined with mediocre performance.....well, why bother?

Granted.

Quote:
Solid Drive is more akin to being a true "Solid Resonating" Audio Transducer system. . How does it sound? Just muffled and indistinct enough to limit it's use to those who don't know it's muffled and indistinct....and who are infatuated with the whole "Invisible" idea enough to look past any discrepancies in sonic accuracy.

OK. Let's move on.

Quote:
Clark Absolute Tactile Transducers. Pretty much the "reference Tactile" to many higher end advocates of thumpin' bass into one's rump. Floors too. It's design was actually Full Range, and it's original model truly a Transducer on a massive dose of steroids. But it's design also precluded mounting it vertically

OK. Let's move on.

Quote:
True Audio Transducers require only a 12" diameter 5/8" thick mounting Board that accepts the Transducer via a Threaded Screw insert. That assembly is then either suspended across the Stud Framing (Wall or Ceiling) using flexible Nylon Webbing, with the assembly pulled tight across the space until it is essentially "spring loaded" so as to push against the Sheet Rock that will cover it. After the Sheet Rock is applied, 4 to 6 Drywall screws are shot through the drywall into the Board, cleating it firmly to the back side of the Drywall.


Now, an area up to 8' in diameter of the Drywall actually becomes the Speaker Cone. It doesn't move though....

Wait a minute. How can it become the Speaker Cone and not move?

Quote:
..that is reserved for the Transducer. The Travel of the Voice Coil is accomplished by the entire Speaker Magnet moving back and forth instead of the opposite. That leaves all the remaining energy to allow for the dispersion of sound frequencies into, through, and across the surface of the material involved.

This description is unclear but what I read seems to conflict with Newton's 3rd Law. You have magnet coupled to a voice-coil which, in turn, is coupled to a compliantly-mounted board and you say the board does not move? Also, an explanation of how the magnet radiates energy..into, through, and across the surface of the material involved is missing. Perhaps I am missing something but it appears to me that, in fact, something is missing.

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Ok....there are two other "Players" left. The Rolen Star 308 and the HAS (Hidden Audio Systems) 801


Both are true "magnet-voice coil" drivers that impart their energy via a small contact area, much the same way as a Tuning Fork imparts it's resonant frequency to a Piano Sound Board via it's slender "flute" as the latter is held in contact with that solid. No one ever states that the frequencies produced by Tuning Forks to tune Pianos are incorrect or of poor fidelity. They are "reference' and the sound produced accurate even though it is created by resonant transfer.

Ah. The difference is that the sound board is coupled to focally-resonant structures so that the interaction of the tones (beats) is clear. To ascribe any similar properties to wall-boards seems unreasonable.

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True Audio Transducers require only a 12" diameter 5/8" thick mounting .

Three paragraphs are repeated.

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Well a Audio Transducer does exactly the same thing, only across the entire audible Frequency range (20-20,000 ideally...35-17,500 in everyday use.)


That would be WITH Drywall, Wood Paneling, and Plastics/Composites/Glass

But without linearity nor similarity across these different materials.

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Yes, they all can indeed and do sound different, and react differently to varied input, be it frequencies or power...or a combination of both. Hmmmm...., sounds a bit like any regular speaker to me. Only now, directionality has been mitigated, and accuracy can be as good as one can design into the equation. Equalization can mitigate unwanted and unexpected instances of adverse, non-harmonic resonate sounds. Fortunately that is seldom any real issue at all.

Now we get to it. You are asserting that they work but sound different, and react differently to varied input, be it frequencies or power...or a combination of both. That is the point. They vary greatly and to say that such a description can be applied to any regular speaker to avoid the point we are discussing. Modern quality loudspeakers sound remarkably similar and it is often difficult to discern and describe how they differ. You assert one thing and I another.

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Kal, it's just that sort of misunderstanding about how it's done and what can be done that leads many to discount the principle out of hand. Your a Pro so I'll try not to preach to the Choir...but sound does NOT require that it be delivered by obtrusive amounts of, and / or gross changes in air pressure (SPL)

Really? And how do you measure sound levels if not as SPL? That, btw, is what the ear responds to.

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Imagine that you made a Speaker Cone 8 feet in diameter. Your going to drive that Monster with a huge 10 lb magnet/3" voice coil. The size of the Cone dictates that it be at least 1/2" thick. Let's \\say you made it from Carbon Fiber to minimize weight and add rigidity without undue mass. You suspend it on a massive, non-resonant frame, and add a "somewhat" flexible Edge Surround to allow the Cone some freedom to react to the "in-out" motion of the Voice Coil's throw.


Well, at any volume that would be both obtainable AND could be tolerated, you'd probably NEVER see that cone traveling in and out....not even from 12" away. especially with most Mid range and highs, transfer into the room medium occurs as a "resonant transfer through the air"

We are all familiar with the principle that increasing the radiating surface permits the creation of an equal SPL (measured at any distance) with decreasing displacement.

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Pushing such into a room only creates issues than can often detract from the end desired result. Accurate and precise sound that does not adversely affect the room's structure, nor get affected by the same.


What happens is this... the pressure of the room's air volume comes up against a resonating surface, and the energy (resonant) contained within and on the surface of the cone cascades into the mass (air volume) in a chain reaction of resonating force applied and transferred.

I am having trouble with your vague terminology. Yes, the efficiency of the coupling of the air mass to a moving surface varies with temperature, pressure and frequency but, unless the surface is moving (i.e., vibrating), it cannot change the air movement.

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A Flute or Bass Oboe might start out pushing frequencies, but after a short travel all that remains is the "cascade' effect through the air.

Normal wave propagation characteristic of sounds.

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Woth a Transducer system your actively resonating air...and really, EVERY speaker does exactly that. The difference is that few of us ever get up close and personal to a 8' Full range speaker (Micheal Fox notwithstanding... ) so instead most must settle for 6" to 18" woofers that toss their Bass frequencies into a room. Such Speakers must 'spread' via displaced air volume the Mid-range frequencies....and they must shoot Highs out of small drivers like Lasers, or disperse them via ribbons or Diffusive Horns. Most of the very most expensive Speaker designs out there try to disperse sound, not shoot it out. Omni-Directionality is a desired trait in a Speaker, but so few can accomplish anything even close to 100 degree dispersion on average.

I am going to delete much and bail out here because, imho, this is descending into jargon, not explanation.

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If instead you can accurately resonate specific areas of the room for sound reproduction, that self same "activation" creates a "Sound Masking" effect that works to disperse or refract sound coming from elsewhere, effectively canceling out the unwanted reflections or absorption.


A true Audio Transducer's ability to do that far better than any conventional speaker is why Industry and the Military use it almost exclusively for critical sound masking applications.


Yes, I am familiar with this but the goal of focal resonances in space for masking (and other more insidious purposes) is quite different from (or, even opposite to) the goals of music reproduction.

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I'm absolutely sure you've only heard Stealth or Solid Drive. Too bad that. Unless you attended CEDIA '97 in Atlanta where i had built a "real" Theater room from 2x4's, Drywall, Wainscot Cherry paneling w/Chair Rail, Sub Floor (with 12 Aura Tactiles) 73" RPTV built Flush into the wall looking like a Giant Plasma, Adcom Amps. 7.1 Yamaha system using 56 Transducers (6 each x 4 for the R&L mains + Effects - 8 Center - 4 ea. Surround


Nope. So, no comment. As I said, I have experienced many demos at CES and CEDIA in the past 5 years which purported to offer similar products and, frankly, they all sucked.

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Drywall can and does resonate accurately across 40hz to 17,500 Khz...but only if it's installed onto the studs firmly, and the signal source/amplification can impart enough energy effectively to FORCE the material to respond to it's machinations. Yeah...FORCE. The molecules must receive enough energy that they fall into a sympathetic resonant state. Otherwise, they WILL resist and make sounds like you hear when a external sound wave collides with the surface and simply "shakes" it.


A good wood surface (I love 5/8" Birch paneled rooms) is even better, and easier to bend to one's desires sound-wise. At the other end of the scale is Glass, a perfect surface for a Transducer because it has density with low mass per thickness/weight. That allows it to resonate extremely precisely with the least amount of power required.

So, can you say how you manage to get these quite different materials to sound the same?

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Sadly though, the nature of Transducers and the care they need in design and installation restricts it almost completely to Custom Home Installer genre. (...excepting Commercial uses...) You certainly won't see them on Parts Express. And look as you might, you probably won't find them anywhere else either. Personally I never have worried about trying to present them to a mass market, nor have I tried to present them on AVS besides one instance in 2002. (an 88 Transducer 7.5 channel system) It was so far out there that no one could begin to accept it let alone understand it.


Funny coincidence is that it too was in New Jersey.


But someday perhaps a learned individual such as yourself might get to hear something that might make you get a little crazy. Just ask.

I hope you take this in good spirit but I have to ask: How do you sell it? If you cannot demonstrate it, it would seem that you can only sell it to those who don't know, don't care and/or simply trust your word. If the last representative demos were in 1997 and 2002, how can you convince us?


As you can tell, I do not buy your explanations but a successful demo could convince me.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/18289002


I read your entire post and, I am afraid, I do not find it convincing although it is apparent that a lot of engineering has gone into these efforts. Admittedly, if this can really be accomplished it would quite desirable for many people.

"Convincing" anybody who has invested & spent time dealing with conventional audio concepts is always at best problematical. I myself doubted the validity of the idea that the sound quality would be sufficient in a Home /Business setting when I first learned of it in 1977. I did acquire a couple pair to test though, and upon discovering how well Glass applications performed I ignored all aspects of Home use and centered on the Automobile.


All the time while some local College Boys were getting them from me and selling them like mad to Students who were turning their Dorm ceilings into Speakers. It seemed that College students all had the most powerful and best quality equipment, so they could drive the units to their full potential. Meanwhile, I struggled along dealing with Car amplification and signal source issues for almost 2 years, basically ignoring everything else around me. Myopic, yes. But with good reasoning I felt because I had been centered around designing Pro audio systems for Clubs, PA's for Live bands, and making Speaker Enclosures for the rare Home Installation. How could these little magnet/voice coil assemblies ever measure up using building materials?

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Sure but you also need to move the surface and it needs to respond and radiate the sound. Let's not skip over this.

It is moving, just not perceptively to the eye...but certainly it is to the touch. And a very large surface area is being activated...far more than even the largest Panel speaker. This large expanse contacts a large volume of air with in turn picks up and transfers the resonant frequencies into the medium.

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We need not discuss the failures, do we?

When all of the "advertised and promoted" applications of any similar ilk have failed to impress or be as successful as they could/should have been, yes, relating the differences helps separate the valid concepts from those that come up short.

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Wait a minute. How can it become the Speaker Cone and not move?

The term is used metaphorically. Besides, the only reason the term "Cone" does bring "movement" into mind because every "Cone" most people have seen is small enough that perceptible movement was absolutely necessary to allow the device to extend it's frequencies into the environment beyond the limited range it would otherwise be able to do if all it did was simply resonate.

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This description is unclear but what I read seems to conflict with Newton's 3rd Law. You have magnet coupled to a voice-coil which, in turn, is coupled to a compliantly-mounted board and you say the board does not move? Also, an explanation of how the magnet radiates energy..into, through, and across the surface of the material involved is missing. Perhaps I am missing something but it appears to me that, in fact, something is missing.

Have you ever used. held a Tuning Fork in your hand? If so you know that simply striking it to make it resonate (vibrate is a misnomer) won't produce a sound that is very loud because the only surface involved in transferring the resonance into the surrounding air are the two Tines themselves. But...if you place the Flute against a table top, on a glass surface, or against your Temple, the conductive resonance is dispersed and it's volume magnified via the sympathetic resonance of the same.

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Ah. The difference is that the sound board is coupled to focally-resonant structures so that the interaction of the tones (beats) is clear. To ascribe any similar properties to wall-boards seems unreasonable.

Of course it would seem so...after all, where does Drywall fit into audio except being a reflective surface one has to accommodate and deal with? However in fact, Drywall's know ability to collect, and absorb sound and transfer it through and across it's surface is exactly why you can hear "through" a uninsulated 2"x4" wall. That's why Sound masking is so essential in work Cubicle circumstances. Even thick metal shows this tendency for resonant transfer. The Navy uses the Transducer to effectively mask interior conversations and prevent them from being overheard through metal bulkheads. Transducers are installed on Plate Glass windows wherever there is the chance someone will use lasers to pick up the resonance of voices that collect and are absirbed into the Glass itself.


All this is not something A/V advocates are familiar with to much if any degree. So being, why then would they be familiar with, let alone accept the premise that such a "thing" could ever hope to produce adequate sound? Frankly, it's that penchant for incredulity that drives the uniqueness of the whole concept, and leaves the initiated somewhat flabbergasted....but also duly impressed. That makes it quite a bit of fun to see the eyes fly open.


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But without linearity nor similarity across these different materials.

Gross variables in materials are certainly different, but such variances are usually nor employed together. In a Framing/Drywall situation, the frequencies penetrate and disperse across the "Room side" surface to the tune of 90% of the energy produced. Framing acts as a stiffener, and to some degree enhances Bass Response because of that. But it also absorbs energy making the production of higher volumes more power consuming.

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Now we get to it. You are asserting that they work but sound different, and react differently to varied input, be it frequencies or power...or a combination of both. That is the point. They vary greatly and to say that such a description can be applied to any regular speaker to avoid the point we are discussing. Modern quality loudspeakers sound remarkably similar and it is often difficult to discern and describe how they differ. You assert one thing and I another.

Not really at all, but if so, it is because we are comparing drastically different concepts for producing sound. In the end, it is all much the same end result, albeit the dispersion characteristics differ considerably. Not all speakers have the same dispersion qualities, tonal character, or efficiency. Yes, they may be close, but the differences in materials and design obviously set them apart from each other.


The construction of a Home and the type materials used in that construction would obviously mean some adjustments must be made for variables in such, but such is easily enough accomplished by adjusting the thickness of the Sound Board the Transducer mounts to, and adjusting or correcting poorly constructed building methods (Drywall poorly fastened to a wall for instance...)

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Really? And how do you measure sound levels if not as SPL? That, btw, is what the ear responds to.

Always this has been a difference...and advantage the Transducer has. By effectively washing the room with resonant energy, the body is enveloped in sound frequencies, not assaulted. The perception of volume is increased because of the "Tactile' effect, so less decibel output produces at 1 meter can sound louder than measurements using a SPL Meter would seem to indicate. Yes the pressure exists, but as more of a even blanket than a direction / reflected entity.


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We are all familiar with the principle that increasing the radiating surface permits the creation of an equal SPL (measured at any distance) with decreasing displacement.

There you go.

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I am having trouble with your vague terminology. Yes, the efficiency of the coupling of the air mass to a moving surface varies with temperature, pressure and frequency but, unless the surface is moving (i.e., vibrating), it cannot change the air movement.

I believe my explanation proves otherwise in that the surface is in fact moving (resonating) and that resonance is responsible for exciting the air volume that lies against it. Propagation of the energy into the area beyond is the natural result. With the active surface being 8' or larger, the efficency of that transfer suddenly soars. That is when the need for additional power to effectively drive a solid precisely can be equalized against the ability of a conventional speaker to produce LOUD sound by push frequencies into a room via displacement of air.

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I am going to delete much and bail out here because, imho, this is descending into jargon, not explanation.

Sorry. I'm not attempting to produce a "White Paper" here, and actually not really intending to do much more than present a layman's explanation. That's somewhat hard to do with such a concept, one that flies into te face of conventionality.

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Yes, I am familiar with this but the goal of focal resonances in space for masking (and other more insidious purposes) is quite different from (or, even opposite to) the goals of music reproduction.

However the principles are tied together at the Hip in that everything is related. Even more so when your using Transducers. Conventional speakers have been tried for Sound masking and been found terribly wanting in performance.

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Nope. So, no comment. As I said, I have experienced many demos at CES and CEDIA in the past 5 years which purported to offer similar products and, frankly, they all sucked.

I always thought so too, and considering that excepting in '97 in the Atlanta & London CEDIA shows, deciding to forgo exposure was mitigated by the poor performance of the developing competition...as it were. Over the years since, it's the disgruntlement of A/V Dealers over the cost and labor of dissimilar but similar methods that have led many to try and accept the original concept. It's a slow gathering of individuals who have bothered to keep an open mind about the concept long enough to call "bluff" and arrange to hear a Demonstration. That happens all the time...but most often with those who have already bothered to try to accommodate the wishes of those seeking a cosmetic solution, yet found the end result less than desirable. Invisibility never loses it's appeal, so what it left is the search for the best way to obtain both that aspect as well as 'more than just acceptable' sound quality.

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So, can you say how you manage to get these quite different materials to sound the same?

Well, 95% of all installs involve Wall Board apps, but therein lies some differences. 1/2' vs 5/8". 16" "on center" framing vs 24' O.C. Interior Walls vs open-attic Ceilings vs enclosed Ceilings. The toughest go is the 5/8" drywall. To accommodate that, a thinner Sound Board is used, but it's diameter/dimension is increased. In 24" O.C. situations the size of the board is increased to help stiffen the wider expanse of unsupported Drywall. (...the Drywall is really far more capable of flexing and moving than your realize....)


It's been a study in what what works best in varied situations, one I've devoted a great many tears to. That is why I train every Dealer, be they experienced A/V Techs or rank Noobs. As you should know, even those with years of education and experience have almost no experience with this sort of thing, or if they have, it was very limited...or worse, involved the "HS Science Class" type of exposure that tends to delegate the entire idea to novelty status.


Do a search for "David Tudor's Rain Forest" and read how Transducers are used to create multi-varied sound through widely dissimilar materials to create works of "Sound Art". Yours truly has been involved with that aspect of "Transducer'ing" since it's beginning, as well as working with College Science and Art departments worldwide. In Europe, people pay to "Float" in Flotation Tanks while being awash and encapsulated in resonant sound. Funny though...while it used to be used primarily for Subliminal messaging and soothing effects, nowadays all anyone does is bring their own tunes to float by. BTW, I initiated that concept back in 1980. Up until then, the only way sound was in highly saline, heated tanks was via conventional 'waterproof' speakers hanging above the Floater's head. In that adverse environment, speakers lasted for only a very short time. Sealed Transducers last the life of the Tank, and that old "conductive resonance" is multiplied many times over by the water's density being able to transfer sound frequencies so effectively. Water Beds are very cool apps to use Transducers in as well. Placed a great many of them in the late '70s as well.

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I hope you take this in good spirit but I have to ask: How do you sell it? If you cannot demonstrate it, it would seem that you can only sell it to those who don't know, don't care and/or simply trust your word. If the last representative demos were in 1997 and 2002, how can you convince us?

Oh there have been many "Demos', but almost all involved Custom Home Shows. It's not something that ever "convinces" somebody unless experienced, so those trying to place systems with Customers stuck to the targeted market that attends such shows. Trying to convince the Masses to allow mass marketing is not, nor will not be a goal ever. I cannot imagine (...well, yes I can....) the backlash that would come form hundreds or thousands of end users who fudged on instructions or tried to use Transducers for inappropriate use simply because they were infatuated enough to believe they could do almost anything. Worst of all would be the experienced A/V installer who acquired such and attempted to install them without knowing all the "ins & outs". There exists no greater "Pig in a Poke' than an Invisible Speaker that doesn't work...with one that works poorly coming in a close second.


To that effect I/we seldom pursue High End A/V Design Installers. In '97, I acquire many such Dealers after CEDIA, but almost all delegated the concept to "I'll use 'em if I have to because the "Woman" demands no speakers be seen". Only when someone actually hears the potential does the proverbial "light Bulb" go on. When that happens, someone with real knowledge can accomplish incredible things. So yes, getting an adequate demonstration is essential to ramping up both understanding and desirability.

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As you can tell, I do not buy your explanations but a successful demo could convince me.

Explanations are really only that....words. It can be hard to explain to anyone what is going on. Actually listening to a system without understanding how it works has never created anything but amazement and wonder, and more often than not, an impulsive desire to own such a system.


You can be sure I'd welcome your getting a chance to hear a Demo. I don't want to pursue a exploitative agenda here...simply show that the concept is valid and works beyond the expectations of those who have used more conventional means. Much the same as I have done for years with DIY Screen applications. Many have been the flame wars I've had to deal with when Mfg Screen advocates took gross umbrage over statements that a DIY Screen could equal or out perform a Mfg example. They can...they do quite often, but try convincing someone who paid 3k for a Stewart CP.
Only when they see it in person can they accept the inevitability of it all.



To wit, imagine a 16' x 9' Screen painted directly onto Drywall where the Drywall behind contains a battery array of 8 Transducers, wired in series/parallel (4 ohms) Such a array can handle 800 watts input, and make that Screen into an impressive Center Channel with perfect image location. and it can do so for less than 1/3rd the cost of any good acoustically transparent Screen....including painting the screen itself.
 

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OK, let's put aside the technical issues (about which we will continue to argue since we are not using scientific or engineering terms in this discussion). Your background references seem mostly to be automobile sound (which, again, I have never heard to do music properly) and clubs/PAs (with which I have no experience or interest). My background is in acoustics music reproduction in the home for 1 or, at most, a handful of listeners. We are coming at this from opposite directions and, perhaps, with different expectations and hopes. So, let's get practical:


1. Has there been any demonstration and subsequent report from a qualified 3rd party about the performance of this type of system on music? I ask for 2 reasons. First, home theater sound effects (bang, splash and tinkle) are easy to do but getting the correct spatial and tonal balances for music reproduction (including voice) is a more rigorous test. Second, testimonials from installers and (unqualified) owners are inherently biased.


2. Is there a demonstration, somewhere/somehow, that I could experience with my own source material and, possibly, with my own measurement equipment? The latter is less important but would be useful in bigger picture.
 

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WOW
And I always thought if it sounds good to "your" ears it's a good system for you!!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT1 /forum/post/18291914


WOW
And I always thought if it sounds good to "your" ears it's a good system for you!!!

Of course. OTOH, when someone comes forward and says that, because it sounds good to him, it is a good system for you, the situation is different. Then, it is reasonable to ask "How do you come to say that?"
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/18291345


OK, let's put aside the technical issues (about which we will continue to argue since we are not using scientific or engineering terms in this discussion). Your background references seem mostly to be automobile sound (which, again, I have never heard to do music properly) and clubs/PAs (with which I have no experience or interest). My background is in acoustics music reproduction in the home for 1 or, at most, a handful of listeners. We are coming at this from opposite directions and, perhaps, with different expectations and hopes. So, let's get practical:

I'm always practical...or practically always so.

I had 4 years in Pro-Audio.... 2 years doing Transducer Car systems (..and waterbeds...) and I've had 31 years at doing Audio Systems. Even though I myself was among the first to install true Dolby Surround systems in Homes (79-Marco Island, FL), seldom did any system not start with Distributed & Critical Listening Rooms included. I've had the pleasure of replacing many esoteric speaker systems whose sole existence was music reproduction, and when doing so you can bet I pulled no punches as far as design. So really, with 30+ years under my belt, I'd say the bulk of my experience is quite varied, perhaps more than anyone else you might know.


Only the Transducer device never varied...the different applications however went beyond the kin of most peoples imaginations. Sound Hype-y...? A bit, I'd agree, but I've had immense fun along the way. I still do....even when things like this pop up.


Believe you me, your a pussycat compared to those who frequented the Tech Forums on SlashDot.Com between 1995-2000.
Not a one ever asked for a chance to prove/disprove things....they only assailed it as being Snake Oil, and myself as being.....well, never mind.


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1. Has there been any demonstration and subsequent report from a qualified 3rd party about the performance of this type of system on music?

Yes, but it was as far back as 1972 when Julian Hersch wrote a very long and effusive review of the Rolen Star in DB magazine (...are you that old?)
He acknowledged the potential of the product, but lamented it's power demands and the resulting cost of same. Back then, the little buggers only cost $14.00 ea, so needing a big Macintosh to drive a Music System was something only esoteric listeners could consider, and if they were in that category, they more often chose something like Harmon Kardon Citation's or Altec Lansing Voice of The Theater.


The advent and intrusion of Japanese Audio into the USA changed that by '77-'78, and the cost of decent amplification has slowly been reduced ever since....unless your determined to buy only Esoteric brands. I'm happy that Transducer systems run quite well on $1000.00 receivers. So are a lot of others too.

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I ask for 2 reasons. First, home theater sound effects (bang, splash and tinkle) are easy to do but getting the correct spatial and tonal balances for music reproduction (including voice) is a more rigorous test. Second, testimonials from installers and (unqualified) owners are inherently biased.

I know....however in the end, it's those owners that garner you your referrals....people who must have a system because they heard it and could not consider anything else, even if it was due as much or more to the special unique aspect than the Audio quality. But my job was to always make sure both attributes existed at one time...and so being, I'd say to be "practical", you'll have to at least give all this the benefit of doubt and not make judgments and conclusions until you experience it yourself

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2. Is there a demonstration, somewhere/somehow, that I could experience with my own source material and, possibly, with my own measurement equipment? The latter is less important but would be useful in bigger picture.

Yes, for immediate consumption you can visit the same location that Dave did.(...just outside Wayne, NJ...) I'd be more than acceptant of whatever critiquing his system received by you. Be it for either Music or A/V. Bring whatever test gear you feel necessary, as having some definitive numbers and graphs can only clarify what is to many as a decidedly "Gray area".


Just PM me for the Contact info and address and have at it
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan /forum/post/18293917


I know....however in the end, it's those owners that garner you your referrals....people who must have a system because they heard it and could not consider anything else, even if it was due as much or more to the special unique aspect than the Audio quality.

I have to say that I do not share any interest or sympathy with that approach but I do acknowledge its existence.

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But my job was to always make sure both attributes existed at one time...and so being, I'd say to be "practical", you'll have to at least give all this the benefit of doubt and not make judgments and conclusions until you experience it yourself

Well, of course, I cannot judge what I have not experienced but prior experience to "similar' stuff has been awful.

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Yes, for immediate consumption you can visit the same location that Dave did.(...just outside Wayne, NJ...) I'd be more than acceptant of whatever critiquing his system received by you. Be it for either Music or A/V. Bring whatever test gear you feel necessary, as having some definitive numbers and graphs can only clarify what is to many as a decidedly "Gray area".


Just PM me for the Contact info and address and have at it

You're on but it will have to wait until the end of the semester.
 
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