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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these two subs. I'm torn and looking for your valued opinions. Room is 12X17. I have had a PSB Subsonic 1 subwoofer for 7 years and its time to step up. I love the PSB but I want deeper and louder. I actually checked out my friends Velodyne VRP1000.....ughhhhh. Guess you need to stay away from the lower series of Velodynes for clarity. My PSB walks all over it in terms of clarity. I do not care if both of these subwoofers are "oversized" for my room...I'll get over it. :)


Anyway....about $40 more for SVS PB10 but don't care if it is worth it. It appears the SVS holds it DBs and distortion levels very well in the 20HZ-25HZ range. The HSU STF2 doesn't want/isn't designed to go that low and loud. But...I've heard more about HSU in the past.....


Help!?!?
 

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Crueman,the PB 10 would be better suited if what you're after is more extension, the STF-2 is better at space saving than the PB-10 but will not give you as deep extension as the SVS and is to my understanding a more musical sub. I think it comes down to whether or not you're going to be able to fit the SVS in your room, it is a beast! Since you don't seem to care about size, I'd give you the nudge towards SVS!
 

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I can't say in regards to your current sub PSB (never heard one) but I have an original (not MKII) HSU VTF-2 and my brother has a SVS PB10.


I can say with out hessitation that both are great subs (for their price range and appropriate room size). I admit that I was a bit jealous about the specs on the PB10 going to 20hz and the VTF-2 to 25hz. Then I ran DVE bass management tests and the old VTF-2 can put out sound at around 20hz [~18hz IIRC] (in my 12x16x8 room). No I didn't measure the SPL. I'm very happy with the clearity of the HSU. Remember those low end FR measurements (manufacture's specs) are room dependant and not always reported the same way.


It was easier for me to pick two years ago because SVS did not have any box subs in my price range (or even near my price range) when I picked up the HSU. If I had to pick today it would be a really hard decision between these two.


Does the fact that one is forward and other downward firing mean anything to you (non-SQ wise)?


Sorry I couldn't really help with your decision.


BTW HSU can and will do well with the lower frequencies...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker1024
Remember those low end FR measurements (manufacture's specs) are room dependant and not always reported the same way.
I don't think this is true - I thought most mfr specs were based on anechoic 1/2 space measurements, not in-room. A mfr would want to use anechoic because it would give the flattest curve, even though in-room might give a bit more extension. For example, here is the way SVS specs the PB10-ISD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVS
+/- 3dB from 20-100hz anechoic, in room extension will be 2-5hz deeper
 

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All I meant was your in room experience can be lower than the specs posted by the manufacture. Which is what I have personally experienced. I have also heard that in general HSU is conservative with the low end FR statements. Of course that is just conjecture between people posting on this forum.
 

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Agreed! :)
 

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Exocer said:
/...the STF-2 is better at space saving than the PB-10 but will not give you as deep extension as the SVS and is to my understanding a more musical sub./QUOTE]


As a musician and SVS owner, I just want to state that my sub is _extremely_ good with music. It never colors the sound or adds bass where ther's not supposed to be bass. It is fast, responsive, and clean. This is not to say the Hsu isn't musical, just that the SVS line is quite excellent with music.
 

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I do not own either sub and i'll take the word of an actual owner over my own word ( although i never said the SVS was particularly bad with music or that the STF-2 would be a night and day improvement over the SVS in this area..sorry if i offended anyone) I'd go w/ the SVS in your situation because extension is one of the main reasons for your upgrade in the first place and the SVS has plenty of it. The HSU also has great extension capabilities, but the PB-10 seems to have proven itself time and time again that it is relatively flat down to 20hz and a bit lower.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaker1024
All I meant was your in room experience can be lower than the specs posted by the manufacture. Which is what I have personally experienced. I have also heard that in general HSU is conservative with the low end FR statements. Of course that is just conjecture between people posting on this forum.


I rarely pay much attention to manufacturer specs since there really is no set standard of measurement in this industry. Both of these subs are very close in terms of output, bandwidth uniformity, distortion, and deep base extension.

I prefer the HSU mainly due to it's size. The SVS subs can be overwhelming even in an average size room. The closest way to compare these subs would be to review Tom Nousaine's measurements on the older slightly less powerful VTF2 with one port pluged (max extension) and his measurements on the PB10 from Ed Mullens Secrets Of Home Theater Review.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm



Ian ;)
 

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Here are Ed's reviews of both subs, same conditions.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=209418


STF-2 10% THD Ground Plane 2 Meters (add 6 dB to obtain 1 meter values):


20 Hz: 74.7 dB

22 Hz: 80.9 dB

25 Hz: 91.7 dB

32 Hz: 99.5 dB

40 Hz: 98.8 dB

50 Hz: 104.8 dB

63 Hz: 106.9 dB

80 Hz: 104.7 dB


20-80 Hz: Average 95.3 dB; Output Linearity 89%

22-80 Hz: Average 98.2 dB; Output Linearity 92%

25-80 Hz: Average 101.1 dB; Output Linearity 95%


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html


SVS PB10-ISD 10% THD Values (Ground Plane 2 Meters):


20 Hz: 93.9 dB (8.0 % - amplifier limited)

22 Hz: 96.9 dB (2.7 % - amplifier limited)

25 Hz: 102.2 dB

32 Hz: 104.1 dB

40 Hz: 105.8 dB

50 Hz: 106.7 dB

63 Hz: 105.7 dB

80 Hz: 104.0 dB


20-80 Hz: Average 102.4 dB; Bandwidth Linearity 96%

22-80 Hz: Average 103.6 dB; Bandwidth Linearity 97%

25-80 Hz: Average 104.8 dB; Bandwidth Linearity 98%



The PB10 certainly has quite a performance advantage below 50Hz or so.
 

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Jack:

Thanks for the info. I've been looking for Ed's review of the STF-2. What confuses me here is that the measurements for the VTF-2 at maximum extension in Nousaine's 7500 cubic room were quite a bit higher then those taken by Ed when he measured the STF-2. Since the VTF-2 had 50 watts less power and the older enclosure you would think that the STF-2 would produce better numbers. I wish Ed would chime in and explain this discrepancy. :confused:


Regards,

Ian
 

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Quote:
Thanks for the info. I've been looking for Ed's review of the STF-2. What confuses me here is that the measurements for the VTF-2 at maximum extension in Nousaine's 7500 cubic room were quite a bit higher then those taken by Tom when he measured the STF-2. Since the VTF-2 had 50 watts less power and the older enclosure you would think that the STF-2 would produce better numbers. I wish Ed would chime in and explain this discrepancy.
TN hasn't tested another Hsu Research product since. When he does, you should be able to draw more definitive conclusions about his VTF-2 test data.


There is not much to explain on my end, really. Both subwoofers were measured at 2 meters in 1/2 space (outdoors, on the ground, away from all reflective boundaries). Both manufacturers confirmed the data was accurate and production-representative before the reviews were published.


There is nothing surprising about my test results for these two subwoofers. The SVS has more internal volume, a deeper tuning frequency, a longer clean stroke, and more amplifier power. If outright performance (flat FR, deep extension, high output, low THD, high bandwidth linearity) are the primary considerations to the enthusiast, then the PB10-ISD is the best choice at this price point.


In comparison, the STF-2 is smaller, lighter, and takes up less floor space. If those are important considerations, then the STF-2 remains a good alternative. Comparisons to the PB10-ISD not withstanding, the STF-2 performance numbers still stack up well against other more expensive OEM brands I have tested. In that respect it remains a good peformance value.
 

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Quote:
In comparison, the STF-2 is smaller, lighter, and takes up less floor space. If those are important considerations, then the STF-2 remains a good alternative. Comparisons to the PB10-ISD not withstanding, the STF-2 performance numbers still stack up well against other more expensive OEM brands I have tested. In that respect it remains a good peformance value.
Thanks Ed for your reply. Although the STF-2 produces good numbers for it's price, I am a little disappointed being that isn't the sub that I thought it was. I have read a lot of Toms reviews and this new information along with the fact that you can buy a sub like the Velodyne DPS 12 from an authorised dealer for the same price, has made me realise, due to internet sales, just how competitive this part of the industry really is. Now if only SVS could build a sub that would fit in my small room! :D


Ragards.

Ian
 

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Dear Ian,


There needs to be a distinction made between distortion-limited output and dynamic compression level. If you read the reviews in question, you will find that the STF-2 holds it's own in dynamic compression levels at and above around ~23-25Hz, which is impressive given that it does have a much smaller enclosure, lower excursion woofer, and less amplifier power.


There is always the matter of preference in sound too, as we have had many customers who have preferred the sound quality of our subs (including STF-2) versus other products with larger enclosures, higher excursion drivers, higher rated amps, more porting, etc. Dr. Hsu is quite adept in understanding the tradeoffs involved in all aspects of subwoofer design. So I would not necessarily rule out something based purely on distortion limited output alone. It is always prudent to listen to as many products as possible in home, and then weigh all the tradeoffs.


That said, we now understand that consumers are demanding more power, more extension, and more flexibility, even if this increases the size of the subwoofer a bit. That's why we are hard at work on products like VTF-2HO and VTF-3HO!


Sincerely,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Marcks
Dear Ian,


There needs to be a distinction made between distortion-limited output and dynamic compression level. If you read the reviews in question, you will find that the STF-2 holds it's own in dynamic compression levels at and above around ~23-25Hz, which is impressive given that it does have a much smaller enclosure, lower excursion woofer, and less amplifier power.


I agree. It is also worth noting that Ed does is measurements out doors while Tom does his measurements in the optimal corner of his 7500 cu. ft. room. ;) Thanks for your input.


Regards,

Ian :)
 

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You are correct, Ian. We have been testing our subwoofers outside for decades now.


I would not automatically assume that Tom Nousaine's distortion limited output testing in his large 7500 ft^3 room is always significantly less demanding than testing distortion limited data outside. You will see some evidence of this when you compare TN's servo15 data to some of the servo15 distortion-limited output data gathered outside.


It would be very interesting to see a pb10 tested by Tom Nousaine, and see how that data compares to the VTF-2 data that he has already gathered. Not sure if it will ever happen though ;)


Sincerely,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Marcks
You are correct, Ian. We have been testing our subwoofers outside for decades now.


I would not automatically assume that Tom Nousaine's distortion limited output testing in his large 7500 ft^3 room is always significantly less demanding than testing distortion limited data outside. You will see some evidence of this when you compare TN's servo15 data to some of the servo15 distortion-limited output data gathered outside.


It would be very interesting to see a pb10 tested by Tom Nousaine, and see how that data compares to the VTF-2 data that he has already gathered. Not sure if it will ever happen though ;)



It would really be nice if there were some standard set for measurements in the industry when writing these reviews. I think Ed's methods are the most objective. since it eliminates acoustical issues.

Lets face it, it's doesn't take brain science to realize that if you put a super duty driver in a large enclosure that is properly tune it will produce good numbers, but sometimes size can be impractical from a consumers point of view. ;)


Regards

Ian :)
 

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I agree with you Ian, Edward's reviews are fantastic and getting better and better. I can tell you that we have noticed some differences from our own testing when measuring some non-Hsu subwoofers, but it is extremely difficult to pinpoint why our data sets are different.


Take care!
 
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