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SVS PB13 Ultras just set up-- not overly impressed, What am I Missing?

14K views 167 replies 36 participants last post by  d-rail34 
#1 ·
After PB13 Ultra's delivered on Monday, had to wait for my son to help when he got to house yesterday.

Finally, set them up and started to play with them. I had the HSU VTF2 MK5s. These subs do create some difficulty now in my configuration with the Emotiva T2 towers due to their size.
(See pics)
Before I could fit the HSU and EMotiva's in the corner, now I cant rather have to put the T2s in the front of cabinet

But, I am not seeing that big of a difference in sound vs. HSU's
. A little bit yes, but not dramatic enought for the $3K cost for duals. I'm going to play with them a little more but now I'm thinking about ordering the Monolith 15s while I have the SVS PB 13Ultra's here to do a head to head. Is there something I'm not doing right? My florida room also is a nightmare with all the glass but HSUs just seem to be more efficient.

I had the SVS volume at 0, and now calibrated to -10 but haven't played them since changing -10 as I will this weekend.
Also have all crossovers at 80, lpf>lfe at 80

Option 1, just return the SVS subs and keep the HSU's be happy with those subs as they do make the room less crowded and aesthetically more pleasing.
Option 2, order Monolith 15s do head to heard (little worried in Mono's not better now have to pay $300+ for shipping back)

I didnt want to spend more than 3K on subs because its not worth it with the little bit of HT usage per month....but I do want that awesome experience when I do.
Im not a big user of subs, maybe 4-6x per month for movies...that's about it.

I'm asking for any suggestions?? Help? Opinions....

Thanks


NOTE: Pics 1st is back of Florida room which is like 35-40 length, 14 feet wide
2nd pic- up closer to see configuration
 

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#2 ·
HI

What is the gain level on the PB13 Ultra?

What is the trim level on your receiver after you calibrate?
 
#3 ·
Hi Mike,

I responded to your PM with some specific suggestions, including the use of the 15Hz mode. Seeing your photos, I would add the suggestion to also try moving the subwoofers inside the speakers, instead of having them against the side walls. Try both arrangements to discover which will work better overall. I think that your speakers will sound better spread further apart. At a minimum, that should widen your soundstage.

I think that the biggest suggestion I could add to the ones I already made in the PM is to be patient and give yourself a little time. By all means, order Monolith 15's if you want to, but you haven't begun to really test the PB13's yet, in my opinion. As you noticed when you tried cascading crossovers, the combination of small setting changes, and some subwoofer volume changes, can make a big difference in the results. And, you are just starting a 45-day free trial period now. :)

Regards,
Mike
 
#5 ·
Thanks Mike. re: configuration...unfortunately I cant fit both speaker and subs in corner now like I could with HSU's. I can move the speakers in corners no prob, but the subs would have to go where the speakers are in my 2nd pic which means big ole subs sticking out in front of the long cabinet which just doesn't look good. My area there create some configuration problems.
I'll keep playing around with everything. You've been a great help.
 
#6 ·
Two things to point out.

1.U wont get good bass from that sitting location. You would need a wall behind the couch. Wall to wall. Sitting in the middle of the room usually takes out the bass. Its like having a car with 700hp but only taking 70hp down to the ground

2. PB13 uses Fiberglas cone which sounds lifeless and boring. I've owned these and i wasnt impressed either and sold it
 
#17 ·
SB 4000 is pretty much same sub as SB13. He would benefit from ported sub in his open floor plan rather than sealed from a performance aspect.
 
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#14 ·
I haven't but for aesthetics I think moving these big things around just wouldnt look good. I have to kinda keep them towards the front.
 
#15 ·
You might want to check for null zones in your listening position. Use this web calculator, enter your room size and then hover the mouse over the vertical lines on the Schroder chart to listen for drop outs at specific modes. In my case, rotating the left sub 90° clockwise fixed my deepest null.
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=22&w=25&h=8&ft=true&r60=0.6
 
#18 ·
You might want to check for null zones in your listening position.
Excellent point. I have a feeling that both settings and acoustics are at play here. Those subs in a room that size should EASILY be able to blow the roof off the place with it feeling like King Kong is crashing through the place. You have some Godzilla gear for sure. Now to just figure out the right configurations to wake him up.
 
#20 ·
Personally I would not do that since you want the tweeter/ribbon to be in line with your ears as possible.
 
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#21 · (Edited)
If you had bookshelf i'd say yes, taller mains will put the soundstage up to high unless your MLP is raised. Is getting a narrower component cabinet an option?
 
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#29 ·
That's another good idea but I haven't found anything modern like mine that I like ....and thats gonna be another $1K++
 
#26 ·
Any chance you could put them behind the couch somewhere? There are some easy wireless setups you can toss in there if wiring's an issue.
Like this one: https://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-wireless-audio-adapter

Before investing in a wireless solution though, I would HIGHLY suggest doing the "subwoofer crawl." Doing one sub a time (disconnect the other one), you place the subwoofer on the couch at your favorite seating position. Then you crawl around the room (seriously) and see where you like the sound/impact the most. Once you find that spot, put the sub there. Should mirror the results you heard from the couch, more or less. Once you get one of them dialed in, then do the other sub. It's a great way to quickly learn how your sub interacts with the room and then with each other.

Here's a good instructional video Audioholics did years ago. I know it looks nuts but it really does work!
 
#32 · (Edited)
mpk1970

I know how you feel after spending $$ you would expect super performance.

Well with that much $ you could get 4 of this subs and a good amp.
https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/SBE-118

Or try 8 JBL 12” CS1214 setup for much less.
I just ordered the JBL so won’t be able to test them yet.
I will have dual on each front corner and the other two dual setup as surround for a total of 8 drivers.

More info if you go to the DIY speaker and sub forum.
 
#36 ·
The PB13 Ultra is a very capable sub. The Monolith THX Ultra 15 isn't going to be a substantial step up, actually more of a lateral move. The subs aren't the problem. Placement of the subs is paramount. With dual subs you need to have each one in a good location to work together that gives the best performance at the listening position. Turning the driver orientation could help slightly, but it's not going to make the subs significantly better performers. One simple thing that I haven't seen mentioned is phase. You have to make sure the subs are in phase. If they are out of phase they aren't going to perform well together no matter what other changes you make
 
#41 ·
If they are out of phase they aren't going to perform well together no matter what other changes you make
You bring up an interesting point, whether it's due to phase settings, acoustics, or placement, it does make you wonder if OP has some cancellation going on. I'm just going to reiterate an earlier point of mine: With dual SVS PB13's and a room that size, OP should be straight blasted out of his seat without those subs so much as breaking a sweat. My last setup had dual PC-13's (same driver and amp) and the results were absurd (in a good way). With them barely turned up, I had building obliterating bass. I still remember watching that intro to Edge of Tomorrow and little did I know that one should not have their volume anywhere near reference on that one. That initial bass sweep damn near gave me a heart attack. Screen was still black so wasn't expected at all. Dang near pooped myself with that level of bass.

OP: Your subwoofers can ABSOLUTELY hang. To the point of destroying stuff on the other side of your house if you're not careful. It's just a matter of figuring out how to make them work with your receiver, speakers, room, etc. Best of luck. You'll get it figured out. And when you do, oh man. Hold on to your hat. You're gonna love it.
 
#40 ·
^^^

My suggestion to the OP is just to go with his current plan. Otherwise, the advice he gets is going to take him in 10 different directions. My understanding of the current plan is as follows. First, the subwoofers will be rotated 90 degrees, and the speakers will be in front of them and fairly widely separated. Second, the OP has been experimenting lately with cascading crossovers and liked the result, so my understanding is that he will start-off by implementing them again. (That includes the use of LPF's in the subs themselves.)

Third, my understanding is that he will implement the 15Hz port tune. And fourth, my understanding is that he will increase the gain controls on the subs incrementally, in order to find the bass volume level he likes, while keeping AVR trims well in the negative range (maybe about -5 or lower).

Whether he will need to adjust the phase on one subwoofer is unknown. More often than not, subwoofers on the same wall will be in phase with each other. Whether this will be the ideal physical arrangement, or whether some other tweak will be helpful, are also unknown. But, he has to start somewhere, and if we all make different suggestions for his starting point, he won't ever have one. Let's wait and see how his current plan works, first. :p:)

Regards,
Mike
 
#42 ·
I had the SVS volume at 0, and now calibrated to -10 but haven't played them since changing -10 as I will this weekend.
Also have all crossovers at 80, lpf>lfe at 80
I'd change the LFE back to 120hz (default) and bump up the crossover to 100 or 120hz. On the SVS thread there is a tip from Ed Mullen about setting up the PEQs to give more mid bass. Pretty sure Mike has the settings memorized. :)
 
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#43 ·
I officially give up
Have no patience I guess

I tried a few different movie scenes that are pretty dynamic...Max Max- Fury Road, Star Wars- Rogue One
It was ok but I dont even know if they outperformed the HSU VTF2s. I actually think VTF2s give me more boom. Everybody telling me should be major difference.
Just dont get it.

90% I'm returning them. Gonna be such a pain in the ass to repack.
Will give them weekend. I have them same place as the HSUs.

Is there something the HSUs have PB 13s dont ? If so, maybe I'll order the HSU 15 inch.

I've tried every configuration. I guess I need to put these 5 ft in front of me.

Truly baffles me.
 
#58 ·
Don't be too discouraged. I wasn't going to say anything because it usually just upsets owners, but the PB13 Ultra isn't the powerhouse people make it out to be. Before everyone reaches for the tar and feathers, let me preface my statement that I owned two of them for a number of years. I think I bought them sometime around 2008-2009. At that time, the heavy hitters in the market were Epik, Elemental Designs, Seaton via AV123, and SVS. The PB13 Ultra held its own back then and was a powerhouse in its own right. However, it is easily bested by the current offerings from PSA, JTR, Deep Sea Sound, etc. I enjoyed the PB13 Ultras for the years I owned them, but they don't come close to today's market offerings.
 
#44 ·
mpk1970 said:
90% I'm returning them. Gonna be such a pain in the ass to repack.
Will give them weekend. I have them same place as the HSUs.
Sad to hear that. I understand you. When you invest so much in subwoofers, even if they're not set up optimally, they still should give you a pretty great experience, especially when "lesser" subs are already giving you a solid performance.

Best of luck.
 
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#45 ·
have you identified the point at which the subs cant play any louder? it sounds like you arent following guidelines on how to setup subwoofers.
 
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#46 ·
Play louder? I cant even get them to play loud let alone louder....

I've walked away for now too frustrated. I literally put my ear to the drivers and could barely hear output. Nothing is damaged because they both sound same.
They sound like 6 inch diam subs.
My sons $250 BIC has more output.

The HSUs VTF2 are definitely better. Oh well...cant say I didn't get help from everybody on this forum...everybody was great with advice and trying to help.
 
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#47 ·
Out of curiosity, what specific AVR do you have? The bass management can certainly vary quite a bit. My Yamaha CX-A5100 did a VERY good job on that front. Anyway, depending on what you have, it could determine whether you should do your fine tuning on the receiver side or the subwoofer side. With most modern AVRs, I like to let the receiver handle all the processing, plugging into the LFE input on the sub, and leaving most things alone on the sub (leaving LPF, HPF, Room Compensation, etc. all disabled). Also with this sub, make sure you read the directions and plug the ports according to the setting on the sub's amp (Sealed, 16 Hz, 20Hz). The included instructions explain what to do there. If you're altering too many settings on the subwoofer AND the receiver, this could certainly effect what's going on. Like I said, let one side or the other handle manage the bass. Rarely both.

Also, the SVS amp has a little toggle that selects either "Hi-Level" or "Normal." Double check that too. Typically, it should be in "Normal."

In case this is more in depth than what came with your sub, check the online manual out: https://system.na1.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=557&c=3634088&h=b04ef7988ead2df5c6fd&_xt=.pdf

Last but not least, have you given SVS a call? They are usually extremely helpful and can perhaps guide you along. They've always provided me with exemplary service when coming across trickier situations. Those guys know their stuff. Typically easy to get a hold of and no foreign call center. Usually the same guy picks up the phone. Haha. Great team, really. Try talking to them before returning.
 
#157 ·
Interesting about the Yamaha, I had read criticism of its handling of bass and sort of crossed it off my list. Always wanted to own one of the big Yamahas back to I think it was called the z1.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
#53 ·
Looks to me you are getting cancelation between subwoofers at the crossover point. Your AVR (Marantz SR5012) has Audyssey XT so no SubEQ HT. There is no independent subwoofer distance and level for each subwoofer so you have to be very careful every time you change orientation or position in one of the two subwoofers because you can not make individual corrections for each subwoofer. In your case, with that receiver both subwoofers have to be at the same distance from main listening position. Not sure how the delay/phase works on the PB13 Ultra but you can try changing the delay/phase knob position in one of the two subwoofers until you get more bass in the MLP. That will confirm that the subwoofers are out of phase and canceling each other. If you have a calibrated mic, then check with REW on Impulse Response overlays to see if the subwoofers are out of phase.
 
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#54 ·
Which actually brings me to another point. Perhaps OP should leave one entirely disconnected or powered off and see how that effects things. If he ends up with tons more bass by leaving one of them off, then cancellation would certainly appear to be the issue. If it's still total weak sauce, then it's likely something else to begin with.
 
#59 ·
in the avr menu make subs are set to on.
 
#61 ·
Called SVS, we went thru AVR to make sure settings ok
the only change was LPF to LFE from 80hz where I had to increase to 120hz

they saying possible damage to amps? Both of them?? Seems nearly unthinkable but I guess its possible....


Going to take @Montucky suggestion and turn off one Sub
 
#64 ·
Welp, that didnt work either. 1 sub off still produces mediocre performance from the one sub on.
 
#63 ·
After PB13 Ultra's delivered on Monday, had to wait for my son to help when he got to house yesterday.



Finally, set them up and started to play with them. I had the HSU VTF2 MK5s. These subs do create some difficulty now in my configuration with the Emotiva T2 towers due to their size.

(See pics)

Before I could fit the HSU and EMotiva's in the corner, now I cant rather have to put the T2s in the front of cabinet



But, I am not seeing that big of a difference in sound vs. HSU's
. A little bit yes, but not dramatic enought for the $3K cost for duals. I'm going to play with them a little more but now I'm thinking about ordering the Monolith 15s while I have the SVS PB 13Ultra's here to do a head to head. Is there something I'm not doing right? My florida room also is a nightmare with all the glass but HSUs just seem to be more efficient.



I had the SVS volume at 0, and now calibrated to -10 but haven't played them since changing -10 as I will this weekend.

Also have all crossovers at 80, lpf>lfe at 80



Option 1, just return the SVS subs and keep the HSU's be happy with those subs as they do make the room less crowded and aesthetically more pleasing.

Option 2, order Monolith 15s do head to heard (little worried in Mono's not better now have to pay $300+ for shipping back)



I didnt want to spend more than 3K on subs because its not worth it with the little bit of HT usage per month....but I do want that awesome experience when I do.

Im not a big user of subs, maybe 4-6x per month for movies...that's about it.



I'm asking for any suggestions?? Help? Opinions....



Thanks





NOTE: Pics 1st is back of Florida room which is like 35-40 length, 14 feet wide

2nd pic- up closer to see configuration


There are a lot of things to look at here but if your receiver set the subs to -10 it’s very likely you will want them about 3-8 dB higher than that to have any fun at all.

For a room that size the smaller diameter woofers in the PB will not be able to produce that Thor’s hammer effect when explosions hit, monster footsteps etc depending on where your bass nulls are located.

Room placement makes a huge difference as well. Manual EQ can help smooth out the response and I generally find I do not like the way my subs sound letting Audyssey or other “auto” room correction algorithm EQ them.

Anyway for now I would suggest looking at JTR subs for your room. The 18” Captivator S1 are quite small for an 18” woofer”. Other great brands with very high performance are Seaton sound, Funk Audio and Power Sound Audio.

If space is your primary concern, dual JL Audio F113 are awesome but very pricey ($6,000 each?).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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#67 ·
if all settings in avr correct...double check sub cable connections and/or try different inputs like lfe in or line input...otherwise I guess send em back....do the hsu subs still work?
 
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