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Discussion Starter #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
I'm sorry, I just got the impression from the first post that you had directly compared, and that is quite a differant thing entirely from what you based your conclusions on. While I admit that I personally find little use in the "technique" you used (and from what I read on others opinions on what constitutes a decent comparison), it certainly isn't totally without merit, it's just that it MAY have been constructive to further explain how you choose instead of giving people the impression that you had done a real comparison.




all that shouldmatter to you.


I'm sorry if I came off harsh, peace.
Well yes, you DID come off " harsh"! While I may not give a rats rump about your approval for my "technique" it is a totally legitimate one, used for everything from car shopping to house hunting. Follow along, if you will... While auditioning speakers (or cars, houses, etc.) use a note pad to list the pros and cons of each one being auditioned. After a sufficient number (varies with individual thresholds for time spent) compare notes and eliminate those that don't make the cut. Using whatever criteria makes sense to you revisit those candidates still left and repeat the process, making your final decision based on whatever is most important to you (price, looks, dynamic range, whatever). Purchase your choice, set them up at home, listen and post a short review telling everyone how pleased you are. With any luck you won't run into a condescending know-it-all with barely a month on the forum telling you that you did it all wrong. Peace!
 

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I was far too busy to audition them, but went with the swans due to more bang for the buck. Also, Onix's lack of speaker data and HIVI's overabundance just gave me more confidence in the swans over the rockets.
Actually, the above quote is what I'm trying to save people from. Decisions other than sound.


Buying speakers without COMPARATIVE demos IE: SAME PLACE, SAME TIME, SAME ROOM, SAME ELECTRONICS, SAME MEDIA is really not going to give anyone a real idea of which they personally prefer. But, if that is NOT IMPORTANT to you, then I guess the other criteria are valid for all other reasons besides which one sounds better to you. You are entitled to buy speakers based on ANY criteria you wish, BOSE are sold mostly because they are little and white, just don't spend to much time in trying to talk about sonic superiority and how listening was much of a criteria in the decision, it may give people the wrong idea:

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After a lot of research and listening I finally pulled the trigger on a set of Swan 5.2 classics and a C3 center. I was on the fence for quite some time, going back and forth between Rockets and Swans.
worth repeating.

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With any luck you won't run into a condescending know-it-all with barely a month on the forum telling you that you did it all wrong. Peace!
I've been in the industry , in many ways, for many years, thanks for the name calling, it really helps your arguement....when I said "peace", I meant it, lighten up I'm trying to educate you. Clearly, this is neccesary.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Don't try to educate me, you condescending Newbie! I don't care how long you've been in the industry, you obviously don't know how to speak on a forum OR how to evaluate speakers! In the final analysis whatever instantaneous, A/B switching, level compensating method you use is only valid FOR YOU, and no one else. Calling your methodology the only correct one smacks of arrogance, and referring to Bose as you have smacks of condescension. Grow up, get a job, move out of your mother's basement and get a life! ...Peace (and I mean it as much as you did!) (Sorry for the rant, people like that just piss me off!)
 

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I have Swan 2.1s a C3 and the R2s.......I couldnt ask for better for the money I spent. They blow anything of equal value out of the water. Very comparable to the lower end B&W stuff that is around $500 more.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I could list the various speakers I auditioned, the reasons why each was eventually rejected, etc. However, the only one who seems interested in the whole process is the one who seems intent on disparaging my choice because it doesn't measure up to his standards. Go visit some other forum, so that they too may partake of your "vast wisdom", gleaned from your oh so many years in the industry! ...shakes head, laughs, goes to bed calling his on line gadfly a silly name...
 

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Quote:
Unfortunately, I was far too busy to audition them, but went with the swans due to more bang for the buck. Also, Onix's lack of speaker data and HIVI's overabundance just gave me more confidence in the swans over the rockets.


Oh, and I am completely blown away by these guys. Even the 4.1's in stereo have a terrific sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
Actually, the above quote is what I'm trying to save people from. Decisions other than sound.
Quick, save the poor guy from buying speakers which he's "blown away by! :confused: :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
Buying speakers without COMPARATIVE demos IE: SAME PLACE, SAME TIME, SAME ROOM, SAME ELECTRONICS, SAME MEDIA is really not going to give anyone a real idea of which they personally prefer. But, if that is NOT IMPORTANT to you, then I guess the other criteria are valid for all other reasons besides which one sounds better to you. You are entitled to buy speakers based on ANY criteria you wish, BOSE are sold mostly because they are little and white, just don't spend to much time in trying to talk about sonic superiority and how listening was much of a criteria in the decision, it may give people the wrong idea
What you're suggesting is almost impossible to do *before* you buy speakers. How are you going to assemble all the potential candidates in the same room, at the same time, with the same electronics and the same media. To complicate things, it ought to be *your* room, not some showroom. The only practical way to do it is to travel from showroom to showroom and listen.


BTW, CAPITAL letters are the internet equivalent of shouting. If you look above and to the left of the message box, there are buttons for Bold, Italic and Underline. It's much more polite to use those for emphasis than CAPITAL letters. Caps should be reserved for acronyms.


Craig
 

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I think some people have a hard time believing that you can purchase a good speaker on the Internet, especially those in the “industry.†I have heard some of the X.1 series Swan speakers and own some X.2 speakers and can tell all they are amazing. So many people are so bent on comparing every speaker in the world. Why? You may die before finding sonic bliss. Research and listen to some speakers, talk with friends, coworkers who have speakers, spend time at avsforum and then make a decision. Spend some money!!! Sounds like fun, why would any person want to get on someone for having fun? Swan and many other speakers available on the Internet provide great sound, look and value all in the same package.
 

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How are you going to assemble all the potential candidates in the same room, at the same time, with the same electronics and the same media
Not all at the same time, I think you could figure out how to excercise due diligence with a proccess of elimination . Sorry about the caps, I will be more careful, they were used for emphasis.

Quote:
I think some people have a hard time believing that you can purchase a good speaker on the Internet, especially those in the “industry.â€
No, the same mistake can be made buying from a store, taking them home and hearing them compared to nothing else in their class. In fact that would be worse, as you could at least have had the opportunity to do it the right way. I'm sorry if it seems condescending to suggest that you need to do a direct comparison between at least a few brands before you finally decide, but I think it's just common sense. I wonder what could be the harm or rational for doing otherwise, if "best sound for the dollar" is important to you.

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So many people are so bent on comparing every speaker in the world.
How about just picking from at least two or three, directly compared ? No one suggests trying everyone, just a few to make an educated decision, this act may keep this part of audio from being commoditized.

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In the final analysis whatever instantaneous, A/B switching, level compensating method you use is only valid FOR YOU, and no one else.
Sorry, I thought directly comparing on the basis of sound quality was fairly accepted by many, if the " I got 'em home, and they sound great" method works for you, so be it.


I will not try to pull the wool out of anyone's eyes (or ears).
 

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The dude may own or work at a B&M. They show up periodically to trash threads for Internet Direct brands. They are scared that their business model is dropping off, so they attempt to thwart others from buying stuff on the 'net. There have been several of these trolls and they seem to come back time after time under different names.


Leave people be to make their own decisions. Especially when they are content that they made the right one for themselves.


I've owned SEVERAL speaker brands purchased from local retailers. I now own several Swans and some Onix. My Swans and Ref3's are the best speaker purchases I've made to date.


Congrats FPB. Enjoy the speaks.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy
After a lot of research and listening I finally pulled the trigger on a set of Swan 5.2 classics and a C3 center. I was on the fence for quite some time, going back and forth between Rockets and Swans. The new Swan line was tempting, but in the end I went with the classic series for matching front and center drivers. When the speakers arrived I was worried, as the cartons looked pretty beat up. After opening them I found that they were double boxed, with the inner boxes in perfect condition. I don't think I'd look so good after a boat ride from China!

Unpacking each speaker, I removed the white cotton sack and was amazed by the beautiful rosewood finish. These babies are gorgeous! I was always a "form follows function" type, but I have to admit, these speakers have it all over my old charcoal grey bookshelves. Once I wired them up I put on "The Nightfly", and I was immediately aware of the airy highs and the great dynamic range. I run 4 subs, one to augment the front 3 speakers, one to augment the surrounds, and two dedicated to LFE. Needless to say, the system cranks! I don't run the LFE subs for music, but the 5.2's and the C3 center blended very nicely with the front sub, with a slam you could feel. The mids were right there, thanks to the matched 2" dome midranges. The highs were both clear and easy to listen to, no small feat. When pushed in volume they became louder without becoming harsh, the mark of a good tweeter.

Overall I'm quite pleased with these Swans, both in looks and sound quality. I can't imagine what they have done to their new line to improve things, as these are a terrific deal. Check them out at Newegg.com, but don't go by the pictures, they look MUCH nicer in person! I'll post some shots shortly, you gotta see these beauties to believe it!


Congrats!


What receiver do you use? Are the speakers used just for music playing or also for DVD movies?
 

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I've been in the industry , in many ways, for many years, thanks for the name calling, it really helps your arguement....when I said "peace", I meant it, lighten up I'm trying to educate you. Clearly, this is neccesary.
What a pile of self serving, egotistical C***. And yes, I used caps intentionally. This is exactly the elitist, snobbish and rather boarish attitude that is the bane of folks entering this hobby. They are forced to mass marketed products like Blo$e because they are ridiculed for doing their own research on line in forums such as these, reading reviews in well respected rags or the on line communities, rather than dealing with that kind of attitude.


Give me a freakin break. FPB obviously considered his decision very carefully, auditioned some other brands and made his decision based on HIS criteria..... It was HIS money. He was entitled to his selection process however he chose to do it.


I would venture a pretty safe guess, that not a single pair of the speakers in your showroom Schadenfreude, would you have allowed FPB to take home for thirty days to audition, without recourse, if he decided he didn't like them and wanted to bring them back. No, you would rather FORCE him to audition them in your poorly set up "showroom" on gear that most of the world can't afford or on the other end of the spectrum, wouldn't want if it was given to them.


No, you have no valid argument what so ever. The only bullets in your pea shooter, are sour grapes. You can't stand the fact that someone can make a decision without the benefit (help) of some snob in a B & M. Buy ID and be happy with their decision. When you can't compete, attack, attack, attack. Maybe some weak minded schmuck will back down and cower to your intelligence.


THAT'S (yes CAPS again) is one of the reasons why the B & M's are dying on the vine and being discarded like yesterdays sour milk.


Congratulations on your new system FPB! May you enjoy it for years and years to come.


:cool:
 

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This guy "Schadenfreude" is a dealer of HT equipment? I don't see that in his heading or signature. I have said many times in the past that people "in the industry" should be required by the forum rules to identify themselves as such. I don't have a problem with dealers and manufacturer posting on this forum. However, it's only fair to readers to know the background of the poster and be able to put their posts in proper pespective.


Craig
 

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Quote:
I would venture a pretty safe guess, that not a single pair of the speakers in your showroom Schadenfreude, would you have allowed FPB to take home for thirty days to audition, without recourse, if he decided he didn't like them and wanted to bring them back. No, you would rather FORCE him to audition them in your poorly set up "showroom" on gear that most of the world can't afford or on the other end of the spectrum, wouldn't want if it was given to them.
You are wrong on all counts.


At the begining of this thread, I was trying to acertain what speakers had been directly compared, if you'd like to, take a poll and see if this isn't a regularly expected practice among those posting an opinion on preferance for sound quality, then read the first post and see if the first line didn't indicate / suggest that this had been done? I was trying to get specifics on what kind of comparison was done, and was met with attitude about how this isn't neccesary, for validity, a point on which I disagree, but even if one agrees, further explaination of a certain frame of referance would be in order, which is what I was seeking. How some people give a pass to others making claims about sonic qualities compared to other brands WITHOUT much of a frame of referance, is beyond my ability to understand and perhaps, without qualifying, HEAVILY, these good reviews serve no useful purpose other than continuing the parroting and soft peddling of one's own choice, no matter which brand.


I'm sorry if my attitude was similarly intense , I didn't start out that way. I am entitled to feel strongly that there are FAR to many happy review posts that state fairly little supporting reasons for a real preferance. That is fine if it's laid out that way at the begining, but again, I was asking for clarification, and fortunate that I got some because otherwise I , and others, would likely have taken the first sentence to mean something other than it was. If you fail to understand why these points of distinction are important for people trying to gleen valuable info from these posts, then I'm sorry, but again, I believe most NEED some accurate frame of referance.

Quote:
You can't stand the fact that someone can make a decision without the benefit (help) of some snob in a B & M. Buy ID and be happy with their decision.
I have stated that in home direct comparative auditions are a very good idea,which apparently after some questioning, were not performed in this case, and I have stated repeatedly that I am just as bothered, if not more so by those who don't audition in the BB's/CC's , etc. People here really get miffed at those who buy Bose based on reputation alone without ever doing direct comparisons, it would be hypocritical not to apply the same standard to ALL companies.

Quote:
The dude may own or work at a B&M. They show up periodically to trash threads for Internet Direct brands. They are scared that their business model is dropping off, so they attempt to thwart others from buying stuff on the 'net. There have been several of these trolls and they seem to come back time after time under different names.
My company is a custom buisness, and serve a differant clientel, they are not hobbyists or DIY type people.
 

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Sad fact...(not just speakers)


Some manufacturers have used the site for PR to the extent of using posters for promotion. (site wide)


Some users only really post or endorse at each chance a certain manufacturer. (Some do it for they want to fit in. Some do it for other reasons.) (Site wide)


Internet brands will ALWAYS get more play on forums than other products for people are on the net when they found them in places like this. They come looking for information on maybe a dealer brand, but then see X number of people mentioning something else, so they assume it will work for them not ever seeing another. Thus they buy one and think it is the best thing ever for they have been "told so". All without ever seeing another brand. They then come back and become part of the the same issue by making the same type of posts. Thus it just continues. Not that the brands are bad, heck, I have owned some, but it is just how it works more often than not. Thus is what you are seeing within this site and others like it.


You then also have some manufactures that actually take part in this, while others do not. While some encourage such posts be made. Some will never say a word about it to the purchaser.


This happens time and time again I am sorry to say. Ask yourself this... if you own an internet only product, did you just buy based on what you read here or elsewhere and did not really see another product? While some of you can say HECK NO! I would be willing to say most will answer yes if they do so truly. (I am not asking you to post the answer here or anywhere.)


Please note guys, it is not just the internet brands that we see play games. We see all type of things. But you seem more posts on these types of products just because it is an internet thing with most of the sales coming from sites like this.
In case anyone didn't already see this post from an administrator closing another thread.

My thoughts are to minimize these types of behavior, or at least make sure they are in proper context.
Quote:
Please note guys, it is not just the internet brands that we see play games
Just in case anyone wants to, again, mischaracterize my position. While I am not saying that anyone needs to excercise the due diligence that others do in comparing, directly, speakers, but rather that it would be more helpful if we all could explain what we based our choices on for the benifit of the newbies. Again, I will try to not get my back up on this issue, I would rather see polite discourse.
 

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Ideally, I would like to listen to several brands at the B&M and determine my favorite at my budget.

Order 3 well regarded sets ID. Audition them and send the losers back.

Purchase my favorite from the B&M with the ability to return.

Compare the 2 and keep the best.


In practice I buy what ever I consider to be a good deal and force myself to like them. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Morning AVS! Wow, I can't believe that guy is still spouting off about how foolish I was in choosing my speakers! Thanks to all who supported my position, I'm sure I'll be enjoying my new purchase for a long time.

To those who asked, my other equipment includes an Onkyo TX SR800 receiver, Pioneer DV 563 DVD/SACD player, Sansui direct drive turntable (just can't give up the old vinyl), Swan 5.1 mains, C3 center (all in rosewood), Onix ELT DPA side surrounds and ELT LRS rear surrounds (piano black), CSW P 500 subwoofers front and rear (speaker augment, enables all to run as Large), and CSW P 1000 subs (2) for LFE. My video display is an Optoma H31 DLP projector, Dish HDTV receiver, and a Carada 96" diag. HD aspect screen in Classic White.

My speaker candidates included Rocket 550's and 760's (couldn't find 760's), CSW T-500's and T-300's, Ascend 340's, Polk Monitor 70's, Infinity Beta 50's, JBL E100's, and Aperion (couldn't find to demo). I also listened to several other brands/models, but they were typically higher priced (much!) and were never seriously considered due to that. Still, it's fun to listen!

While testing speakers in your own home is desirable, it is rarely practical when comparing more than a few brands. In cases like this the home can be viewed as a "constant", if you will, as each competing brand would eventually wind up there anyway, and the homes acoustics would present the same factor to each candidate. Since no one should intentionaly buy a speaker to favor a given room (fix the room acoustics instead), off site auditioning is a perfectly acceptable method, and while it may not yield the ultimate in double blind accuracy, is still "good enough" to make an informed decision. In the end I based my decision on the following:

1. Tower design with small footprint

2. Real wood finish subject to WAF

3. Clear, non-harsh highs and mids

4. Center speaker availability that matches mains in looks and timbre.

5. Price per main pair of $1000 or less (the real killer!)


One thing that wasn't as important was low frequency extension, as my subwoofers made that aspect largely irrelevant. The ability to easily blend with my subs, however, was important. One final point, I am in no way, shape or form affiliated with ANY ID speaker company except as a customer. While I'm sure many people post reviews based on some sort of ulterior motive, it happens for B&M brands as well. It has always amazed me that when someone praises a store-bought speaker that's OK, but do it for an internet brand and suddenly you become a "schill"! Amazing... oh well, time to go crank up the system, and continue the break-in. I know, another hot topic, and one that I don't really subscribe to, but as long as I have to go to work anyway I might as well let the cats enjoy some satellite radio!
 

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So, Schadenfreude, basically what you're saying is you CANNOT trust your own ears that something sounds good unless you've compared them to a certain # of other brands? Why, b/c he may be missing something else that sounds better?? Let me tell you this, whether you spends hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of dollars on your system, there will always be something out there that will sound better. If you obsess about that, then you cross the line from enjoying the sound to the endless search for "the holy grail of audio"...which no one will ever find, and in the end you'll just end up never being happy with any purchase you make. Forget the reviews and comparisons and let's keep this in perspective, it's all about enjoying the music with whatever sounds good to you. If you don't believe that swans or whatever brand sounds good, then YOU go out and compare "x" # of speakers till you find one you're happy with. In the meantime, we'll all be jammin' to our cd collection! :D


One more thing, when you walk into a B&M store, you're paying premium for a name more than a sound. There are enough different sounds from the many ID brands that just about everyone can find something they're happy with, and you would have to spend thousands in a B&M store to match the sound/build quality from the ID companies.
 

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For the record.... I have BOTH B & M (AUDES Speakers/Denon & Adcom gear in my HT) and ID (Melody Tubes/ONIX Speakers in a two channel system) brands.


I've got to say (in my neck of the woods anyway) the list of available B & M's were FAR fewer when I started my HT journey, than when I got into audio more years ago than I care to remember.


The attitude that I was afforded when trying to audition speakers and gear was appalling. I even made an appointment in Chicago (about 200 miles from me) to audition the AUDES Blues which weren't available at that time in Indy. I even planned a weekend with the family around that audition.


Upon arrival on the day of my appointment, I was made to wait "have a seat there and someone will be with you...." for almost fourty minutes, only to be informed that they had been "out of stock" of the Blues for some time. When I complained that I had made the appointment, driven three plus hours to get there, why wasn't I given a phone call as a courtesy.... I was told that they were "too busy" to keep track of such things. I'm NOT kidding.... that was the EXACT reply.


It was that experience that led me to do more research on line and discover all sorts of fine ID companies and forums like this one. Fortunately, an AUDES dealership was awarded here in Indy shortly there after and I was able to make my purchase. HOPEFULLY this guy will be able to sustain his small studio business and be around down the road.


I just get tired of the prevailing attitude that only the weak minded or easily brainwashed make ID purchases. Like they are some second class citizen or something. I've been through both sides of the equation in the last few years and both have their positive AND negative drawbacks.
 

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floridapoolboy,


Isn't the 5.2 part of the new Swan line? I'm considering Swans, but only see 5.1's on NewEgg. I see 5.2 as part of the new line at AudioInsider.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimpy1
floridapoolboy,


Isn't the 5.2 part of the new Swan line? I'm considering Swans, but only see 5.1's on NewEgg. I see 5.2 as part of the new line at AudioInsider.
florida, please pardon me for jumping in here.


Yes, the "X.2" series are all-new and are being distributed exclusively ID by The Audio Insider. We also supply the "X.1" series models, including 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, C2, C3, R2, and R3, in the original book-matched rosewood and Faux Black Cherry finish options, thru the Swan Store at New Egg.com.


Both lines are covered by the manufacturer's warranty, and the X.2 series at The Audio insider is also covered by our traditional 30 day in-home satisfaction guarantee. TAI will continue to support both lines with sales and service support at 800-992-7252 and www.theaudioinsider.com .
 
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