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Denon AVR-X3500H; Sony UBP-X800M2; EFE speakers; Outlaw Model M amps; SVS sub; Epson 8350 projector.
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Wow some people have a lot of nerve. A/B testing is not the only way to go, and it has its own problems (unless you do the testing blind, in your house, using your equipment, with each speaker in the proper position, etc.). Most people I know of don't have the opportunity to properly, or even improperly, A/B test all of the speakers in which they are interested. At some point you just have to say enough is enough, take a chance, and just buy a pair.


And no one I have ever heard of bought their speakers based solely on sound. I would go so far as to say that everyone bases their speaker purchase decision on a combination of factors including sound, price, value (sound for price/bang for the buck), looks, size, room issues, equipment issues, customer support and repair issues, manufacturer reputation, etc.


Congrats on your new speakers. I hope you have a lot of fun with them!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimpy1
floridapoolboy,


Isn't the 5.2 part of the new Swan line? I'm considering Swans, but only see 5.1's on NewEgg. I see 5.2 as part of the new line at AudioInsider.


Shrimpy1, to clear up the confusion, the 5.1s on newegg's site are actually the OLD 5.2s, renamed after adding a separate midrange driver. The "original" 5.1s are not available for purchase anymore. I guess newegg renamed them 5.1 to avoid confusion with Swans .x2 line. So the 5.2s that FPB mentions and the 5.1s on newegg are one and the same. It's hard to break the habit of calling them 5.2s. :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Thanks Jewel, you are, of course, correct. The rest of the world called the upgraded speakers 5.1's, while here in the good ole USA we called them 5.2's. With the new models now available the "old" 5.2's are back to being 5.1's. Go figure! Whatever, they STILL sound great!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon
Pics?
Thread is worthless without 'em. :D


Congrats, FPB! I'll be joining team Swans this year myself, probably starting off with the 5.1Ps like you did.
 

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So, Schadenfreude, basically what you're saying is you CANNOT trust your own ears that something sounds good unless you've compared them to a certain # of other brands?
Without comparison, my IPOD sounds "good". It's just that I believe a benchmark of somesort is achieved when we can make an assesment relative to others heard under the same conditions at the same time. I would think that most here want to satisfy themselves that they picked from the best sounding of , at least, several canidates in the same price range whose other characteristics (size, visual, etc) were acceptable given the application. If you aren't doing any comparisons but relying on the words of others, brand name, reviews, or are going on general satisfaction, just state that for the record.

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whether you spends hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of dollars on your system, there will always be something out there that will sound better.
actually, if you start with size, price, visual characteristics, placement options, reliable recomendations, and include what is available to you to demo without too much inconvieniance, then you will ussually find you whittle the field down considerably ...and by comparatively demoing them you can be SURE that there is nothing better for you , specifically.

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One more thing, when you walk into a B&M store, you're paying premium for a name more than a sound. There are enough different sounds from the many ID brands that just about everyone can find something they're happy with
First you don't understand that this isn't about ID brands, it's about NOT AUDITIONING COMPARATIVELY, and whether it is smart to buy without doing so. Many here have taken the time to pick specifically from many ID brands as they live NO WHERE NEAR any B&M's by bringing in two (or more) at a time to KNOW which is better for them - I SALUTE THEIR ENDEVOUR AND CONGRATULATE THEM ON THEIR INTELEGENCE. I have a set of speakers built from an ACI kit because I had heard a friends pair against another speaker that I was very familiar with (having done many comparative auditions with it) and I so liked the ACI's that I bought them. I would NEVER have purchased the kit without that opportunity. I have had friends who have heard them who found them to be a bit weak in the top-end (I disagree). There are others here who have had "shoot-outs" between the best they could demo among all the store brands and then brought in one (or more) ID brands to put up against them - AGAIN, A GREAT IDEA!!!

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and you would have to spend thousands in a B&M store to match the sound/build quality from the ID companies.
A blanket statement like that is the falacy that such blind purchasing perpetuates.

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It was that experience that led me to do more research on line and discover all sorts of fine ID companies and forums like this one. Fortunately, an AUDES dealership was awarded here in Indy shortly there after and I was able to make my purchase. HOPEFULLY this guy will be able to sustain his small studio business and be around down the road.
Unfortunately , we've ALL had disapointing experiances with BOTH buisness models, getting ripped-off on-line has not made me throw in the towel on all ID buisnesses, and the reverse is also applicable.

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I just get tired of the prevailing attitude that only the weak minded or easily brainwashed make ID purchases.
Never implied, only that buying without comparative demos makes one susceptable to influences beyond one's own hearing. Marketing, advertising, etc are not quite brainwashing. Victims are found in B&M's everyday also.
 

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We understand what you're saying, and no, of course there's nothing wrong with listening to as many brands as you please. I think he said he DID this, and read back, I list other speakers that I still OWN that I've compared to swans, both were more expensive than the swans. Just lighten up, it's not your money that was spent, so why do you care how he came to his decision about his speaker choice? If you don't hold any weight to his opinion of his purchase, then just ignore it and choose your speakers as you see fit. It's ridiculous to argue such a stupid point. :rolleyes:


And regarding my "blanket" statement, it's the truth, whether you believe it or not, and you are welcome to come to my home anytime to see and hear my 6.1s in person. There's nothing cheap about their quality, they weigh over 70 lbs each, and they could be placed next to any expensive loudspeaker with absolutely NO SHAME...they are gorgeous, and sound far better than their $1,000 pricetag would have you believe!! nuff said... :p
 

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auditioning is a good way to judge. but alas some members live very far from audio stores stocking what they are looking for. as far as online sellers.... well you just read from jon lane and ocassionally mark schifter will post too and guess what they even compliment each others product... why because they are both class acts. and they will sell more than a lot of products compared tobrick and mortar stores that have no qualified sales people or have little time for the customer.
 

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Schadenfreude,


If everyone did as you suggest, i.e., took home three or four of their "candidate speakers" and compared them "SAME PLACE, SAME TIME, SAME ROOM, SAME ELECTRONICS, SAME MEDIA" (your caps, sorry), the world would be littered with once-used speakers. The "Used" market would would be flooded with these demo speakers and the market for new speakers would disappear.


In your shop, do *you* encourage customers to take home *your* speakers to try them out and compare them to other brands? If you encouraged this, you would have a showroom full of demo speakers. They'd be all scratched up, the boxes would be ruined (if you still had them), the grills would be missing or broken and they would be worthless. And that's just the "supply" side of things.


From the "demand" side, I tried to do what you suggested when I bought my sub last year. I drove 75 miles to auditon a Velodyne DD-18. The salesman couldn't get it to work. I then went down the road and auditioned a Martin-Logan Descent. I liked it so much, I was actually allowed to bring it home and hear it in my room and compare it to my Mirage BPS sub. I took the ML back a few days later and again tried to audition the Velo. No luck. Two weeks later, after the Velo rep had been there, I drove the 75 miles *again* to audition the Velo. I asked if I could do an in-home demo. When the salesman stopped laughing, he informed me that they don't allow products to be taken out of the store.


When I said in a previous post that it is impractical to do what you are suggesting, I was speaking from experience. I will now go further and state that it is nearly impossible to do what you suggest. No dealer in his right mind is going to allow everyone who is *possibly* interested in a set of speakers to take them home for a day or two (or twenty). No potential customer is going to make the time and effort commitment to drive all over creation to pick up multiple speakers, pay the money for them, cart them home, set them up, attempt to optimize them and then spend countless hours deciding which is better, only to have to *return* all the rejects, and hope he gets his money back.


You continue to make the point that numerous people on this forum go to this length to audition speakers. I have been on this forum for a long time. The only person I've *ever* seen attempt something like this is craigsub. He currently has multiple sets of speakers and subwoofers at his home and is contantly changing his systems around. But he has the financial resources, the available time and, most importantly the *interest* to do this. Very few consumers, even *really* interested ones, are able to accomplish what you are suggesting. The only reasonable alternative is to do what FPB did. It ain't perfect, but it's certainly better than doing nothing.


I think your biggest beef is that *you* misunderstood his initial post. I didn't. I never assumed from his initial post that he had gone to the lengths *you* described. His statement that he did a lot of research and listening doesn't state that he did what you described. So it is *your* misunderstanding that has caused all this nonsense.


Just let it go.


Craig
 

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I use to suggest that people go to a few stores in their area and listen and discover which one from each store they thought sounded best , compared to the others there. Then , either buy a couple of the pairs and take them home, or buy one and take it into one of the other stores. This would also depend on lending policies, or restocking fees, etc.


I suppose that after finding the best of the possibilities of Regular brands, one could then buy from an on line company and compare the two. While this may seem like work to some, it seems a relatively easy pleasure and one that could provide better sound quality and peace of mind.


While some in the buisness might be annoyed at the returns, that is what the policy is there for and the Hobbyists among them should be willing to put the quality of their product up against any other in a fair comparison. That's why they carry more than one brand, so that people can make their own decisions without salespeople's or reviewer's own ears and biases getting in the way.


By definition a hobbyist is one who spends more time and money on this than normal people, yet I see many normal people take a decent amount of time auditioning.


I have read many threads about people challenging others intellect for not submitting to a blind A/B/X comparison so that they definitively "know" which amp is better (or that they sound the same), yet here in this thread everyone is willing to give a pass to those professing quality when they can't really judge because they haven't compared blind or in any side by side way.


The problem with all of us (myself included) having computers is that everyone has a voice. As hobbyists, we all seek to sort out whose voice has credibility, if not just for us, for others as well. If we post something and others challenge the validity of what we post, don't call them a spoiler, answer and give reasons. Both sides here have merit, but as with the multiple A/B/X amp discussions, eventually the points get a bit twisted.


If you fall on the side of doing direct amp comparisons as imperative to knowing which is better or if they are the same, why would this type of direct comparison not be essential for speakers? It seems to me that it is a good check against bias, among other things.



Back from Nevada, but not exactly glad to be back.
 

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Quote:
I've been in the industry , in many ways, for many years, .... I'm trying to educate you. Clearly, this is neccesary.
And....

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....only that buying without comparative demos makes one susceptable to influences beyond one's own hearing....
It's certainly great to know that you PERSONALLY have all of our collective backs and stand ready to save us from ourselves. I know I'm certainly going to sleep better tonight.


:rolleyes:
 

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John, I think you might be a little hard on this guy. He does come off a bit snooty but his basic premise that you should directly compare the sound of speakers is pretty hard to refute unless you just assume whatever you like and buy is the best. BTW, I am not familiar with the Audes line. Can you tell me where in Indy they are sold? PM me if that info cannot be put on public display because of forum rules. Thanks.
 

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 Tone Studio Is owned by Mark Maryanovsky who is a Cellist in the ISO.


When I met him, he was operating out of his home while he was getting approval on his new downtown studio. He bought an old historic church at roughly 10th and College. At that time he was planning on opening a two or three level studio with various different sound rooms in a small portion of the building. I believe the remainder was going to be renovated into up scale condominiums.


The web site looks to be still under construction because most of the links aren't functioning.


Mark is a GREAT guy who allowed me into his home on a snowy Saturday afternoon, fixed me SEVERAL cups of tea while we talked about the history of the ISO and his involvement with the Orchestra and allowed me as much time as I wanted to just sit back and listen. I think I was there almost four hours. An incredibly nice guy for sure.
 

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It's certainly great to know that you PERSONALLY have all of our collective backs and stand ready to save us from ourselves
The forum is all about helping people make better choices.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
The forum is all about helping people make better choices.
FINALLY.... I think you get it. THANK YOU.


;)
 

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Discussion Starter #55
One important point in this whole speaker choosing debate that is being overlooked is the "price factor". I have always been and certainly still am mainly motivated by the value quotient of a purchase versus the absolute best. What I mean is, a set of Swan 5.1's at way under $1000 is a much more satisfying purchase that a set of B&W speakers (or other expensive brand) at $8000, even if the B&W sound "marginally" better (which often they do not!). Not to go off topic, but I find it strange when people state a budget and then seek out speakers to fit, such as "I have $5K to spend on speakers, what should I look at". It has been shown time and again that price has little correlation with quality, and above a certain point the extra money spent serves no other purpose but bragging rights. Anyone with sufficient resources can purchase a "high end" speaker, the real trick is getting that "high end" sound at a bargain price. Each time I fire up my new speakers I enjoy the Hell out of the sound, and I smile contentedly as I think of the $7000 I saved by not getting B&W's!
 

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The only problem with that argument FPB.... is that value is a relative term to each of us just like the "sound" of speakers is subjective.


The EXACT same thing could be said for the guy that saved $15,000 by going with his B & W's and not Wilson's. To him and his ears and budget.... he got just as good a deal, if not better and feels exactly like you do.


The bottom line.... is that we all are happy with the coice we make. One should not be critisized for the methods of how they determine what they like or how they choose to spend their money.


That's where I get preturbed.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
"Value" should be a shared concept, not one based on one's bankbook. If $800 speakers can look and sound comparable to $8000 speakers, then which one is a true value? The man who feels he got a good buy with B&W over Wilsons, simply has too much money!
 

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If $800 speakers can look and sound comparable to $8000 speakers
But you see my friend.... that right there is the subjective part. To you that statement may be true, but to someone else, it may not be true at all.


Neither should be critisized.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I see what you are saying, but note I used the word comparable, not "better"! It should be obvious if the fit and finish is comparable, just as the sound can be. While some might prefer one sound over the other, a speaker can sound "comparable" if people say "I like this one a little more, but they both sound pretty darn good". The value part comes in when those same people say "wow, they sell for how much less? That's a good deal!".
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
The forum is all about helping people make better choices.


Better for whom?? Him..or you?? The only problem with this is he wasn't asking your opinion. But I'll be sure to keep you in mind if I ever need advice on a purchase. :rolleyes:
 
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