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Denon AVR-X3500H; Sony UBP-X800M2; EFE speakers; Outlaw Model M amps; SVS sub; Epson 8350 projector.
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Schadenfreude,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
The forum is all about helping people make better choices.
I could not agree with you more. But there is a big difference between helping someone by answering their question and going out of your way to trash a person's demo methods or speaker opinions (especially when they did not ask for your help to begin with). The latter is not being helpful, it is merely being a jerk.


Luckily, there only seem to be a couple of people on this site who get their kicks by denigrating other posters. Whatever your intent this time Shadenfreude, you came off as living up to your screen name. It's time to apologize and let it drop.
 

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After reading the entire thread, it seems to me that everyone was giving a lot of crap for someone asking for clarification and then for him getting a little peturbed that people turned his arguement into one about ID brands, rather than what it was, a repudiation of buying speakers without comparative demonstrations.


If people get themselves in a tissy because someone suggested that purchasing without proper , extensive, A to B auditions, is not a good idea, then I feel sorry for them, both for getting hostile, and for poorly choosing speakers.


While he did get snotty, as someone put it, others have been much more hostile, and his tone hasn't continued as others has.


I would bet when others here have had their speakers judged poorly by another, one of the first questions they ask is what did you hear at that time that you liked better. I believe we need head to head comparisons, it has nothing to do with where you do them or what kind of speakers you are purchasing.
 

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In general I think it is a good idea to audition speakers. This is, however, getting harder every year. High end shops are often staffed by snooty pissants who act if your not ready to drop 20K your a cretin, and at CC and BB you need to compete with the 16 year old trying to hear how loud the latest car sub will get. Further, most of the best deals are ID; I'm convinced.


I support FPB and am waiting for picts and further reviews, but this continuing trashing of Schadenfreude is not helping the free exchange of ideas.
 

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Quote:
In general I think it is a good idea to audition speakers. This is, however, getting harder every year. High end shops are often staffed by snooty pissants who act if your not ready to drop 20K your a cretin,
You can certainly audition without much help from salesmen, and you can likely find at least somebody decent in MOST hi-fi shops, and if your arguement is that this isn't true, then for the neccesity of auditioning , I would deal with Samesman [email protected], if I had

to. This being said , it is becoming increasingly easier to audition In-home, it takes a bit more effort and perhaps a bit more money (initially at least), but the reward is too great to do otherwise. I agree it has become increasingly more difficult to audition and some hi-end shops don't want to worry too much with budget customers, but the reason for that is that we , the consumer, have gone downmarket in supporting Walmart-like electronics stores and to a lesser extent the on-line stores (notice I didn't say ID manufacturers). If we are unwilling to support a cost structure that rewards stores and salespeople that provide demo opportunities and salespeople who are educated in their trade, we will not get these things. As demos get less prevalent, MARKETING (especially stealth advertising, as has been discussed by others) will make up people's minds for them. For whatever reason this happens the incessant drone of net repitition of surperiority is not a good thing.
 

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Very well stated Jake. Unfortunately a vicious circle with no easy answers in sight. For all of us "old timers" that had the opportunity to spend hours and hours at our favorite audio.... *ahem*.... "Stereo" store remember how nice it was to be able to do that and learn.


The troubling part of the equation today, is the mass marketers and big box superstores have won the big battles and all of the newer folks entering the hobby, don't have the coices we had. They can't go hang out for a Saturday afternoon and just listen.


A sad state for sure.


:(
 

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I remember spending hours listening, adjusting, comparing. The salesperson, owner, manager knowing I wasn't really in the market was always cool and happy to show off his stuff. Most of the stores where I grew up (Grand Rapids, MI) are gone. I drove by Audio Advisor a year ago when I was visiting, it is basically a office warehouse, I didn't stop to see if they had a listening room, I doubt they did.


Most of the independant shops here in Houston are gone. Tweeter purchased Home Entertainment a few years back and has gone downhill since.
 

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Quote:
For all of us "old timers" that had the opportunity to spend hours and hours at our favorite audio.... *ahem*.... "Stereo" store remember how nice it was to be able to do that and learn.................the newer folks entering the hobby, don't have the coices we had. They can't go hang out for a Saturday afternoon and just listen.
There are still some out there, and even the hi-end shops will do their best to help the newer and younger guys along a bit....today I sold a pair of Titans , a pair of Atoms and a CC270 to a young man who had been in auditioning three times before over the last couple of weeks. I frankly didn't expect he would be able to spend that much, but he did, cash no less....he had a Yamaha Sub , but was listening to some Velo's, so I know I'll see him again. He's got a Yamaha rcvr that's got a few years on it as well, but we're in no hurry.
 

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This whole auditioning discussion struck a chord with me. There is really only one decent B&M shop around here (El Paso, TX) where I can audition higher-end gear. And they have a no-return policy and do not allow in-home demos. The salesman told me that "people who come here usually know what they want," and proceeded to tell me how people drive all the way there from Mexico City and buy a pair of B&Ws without even listening to them. As if asking for a demo implies that I don't know what I want.


So right now I'm really thinking seriously about Swans, at least I can return those if I want to. In any case, I'm not buying anything from that store. Even if I do buy a pair of B&W speakers, I'll get them used over the internet so that if I don't like them I can sell them again without losing much.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricT43
This whole auditioning discussion struck a chord with me. There is really only one decent B&M shop around here (El Paso, TX) where I can audition higher-end gear. And they have a no-return policy and do not allow in-home demos. The salesman told me that "people who come here usually know what they want," and proceeded to tell me how people drive all the way there from Mexico City and buy a pair of B&Ws without even listening to them. As if asking for a demo implies that I don't know what I want.


So right now I'm really thinking seriously about Swans, at least I can return those if I want to. In any case, I'm not buying anything from that store. Even if I do buy a pair of B&W speakers, I'll get them used over the internet so that if I don't like them I can sell them again without losing much.
Good for you man. That salesman sounds like an arse. I have seen people blindly walk into an audio shop, head over to the most expensive speakers and purchase without listening. I guess the rich can do whatever they want.
 

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Quote:
I guess the rich can do whatever they want.
God Bless America!
 

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I have been seriously considering purchasing either a pair of Swans 6.1, Paradigms, or B&W's for a 2 channel music only setup. After reading this thread, and many of the others like it, I am really tempted to give the Swans a try. My only concern is that my receiver is an HK AVR235 and the Swans are rated at 6Ohms. No where in my manual does it say to not use 6ohm speakers with the HK nor does it say that I can. Would it be advisable to connect 6 or 4 ohm speakers to this receiver?


Also the AVR only outputs 65watts per channel in stereo into 8 ohms. Would this be enough to power say the 6.1 swans or 602 or 603 B&W's?


A new amp is not in my current budget ~$1000, but I am considering purchasing one in the future (perhaps this summer).
 

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You should probably post your question in the receivers and amps forum. But from what I have read, I think the HK receivers are pretty much the only ones that can go down to 4 ohms without shutting off. But with 6 ohms you should be OK.


Your 65 watts would probably work alright with the B&W's, but the 6.1 are very large and will need more power than that to sound their best.
 

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Eric is correct in saying the 6.1s are a bigger speaker than the 602 or 603s. They are much larger class of speaker and they will enjoy more power. You should be ok at decent volumes with the HK though. They rate their power output more conservatively than most. Personally I would not compromise my speaker selection based on the receiver you have now, and especially since you are planning on upgrade. Get the best speaker you can and let your equipment grow into it. The 6.1s or 6.2s are in a different class than the 600 series B&Ws. You need to step up to the 700-800 series to get the same level of speaker as the 6 series Swans.


I would seriously give the 6.2s a look too. They have improved the response just a bit over the 6.1s. They don't look as good as the 6.1s do though.. IMO.


Also, I thought the 6.1s were 8 ohm speakers and the 6.2s 6 Ohm. You might want to check this.


Thanks
 

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Thanks for the informed replies guys. I think I will upgrade my speakers soon, and listen at moderate volumes until I can put together enough money to get a 2 ch. amp or a pair of monoblocks.


The reason I was thinking of the Swans 6.1/6.2's and the B&W 602's or 603's is that they are in similar price categories. I am trying to find the speaker that I like most in the $1000 to possibly $1500 (per pair) range.


I mostly listen to Hardcore Punk, some Metal (Metallica) and classical/spanish guitar. Any sugestions of speakers that I should audition (in addition to the Swans and B&W's) that would do this type of music justice?
 

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You might want to check out the Monitor Audio Silver series. They have been getting praises all around recently and you can pick up some models in your price range. Based on your music prefs, I would lean more towards the Swans due to their good mid bass and lower bass. The B&Ws were excellent for Jazz and acoustic, but when played with rock sounded a slight bit thin (except the 804s).


I just got finished listening to Rob Zombie through my 6.2s so I know they can handle the heavier stuff with ease. :)
 

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Wow. Just wow. :rolleyes:


I too am in the "industry", I'm a television broadcast engineer with +25 years in both radio and television production. I can not for the life of me find an argument for testing speakers in different locations, using different media, and different equipment. None.


I routinely fool people with my home system entertaining them with just the front presence speakers. They see the huge towers and subwoofer and their un-trained ears make them think that the sound it good - it is but it's only the front presence speakers. I then turn the subwoofer on and the lowest 60 Hz returns. After a bit I'll actually turn on the tower speakers and the rear surrounds and the gig is over.


The human ear just as easy to fool as the eye. Sonic memory is no where accurate enough to survive days between auditions. (IMHO) I have found that professional musicians have the ability to "record" a better sonic "picture" in their head - I was wired with the engineering side of my brain and can not do that. Great few that have that ability - most of us don't - and that means side-by-side shoot offs.


Even with my trained ears I wouldn't dream of visiting two different showrooms expecting to do a comparison. One or the other speaker needs to visit the other - hopefully you've got the ability to take the winner home with you for an at home test too. When I lived in Japan the owner of my favorite audio store would allow me in early before they opened or to stay late after they closed to audition equipment (and shoot the breeze). I would always have a 30 days no questions asked return policy with the guy. Finding a relationship like that with a BB or CC is next to impossible. I do like the direct Internet sales companies that allow for the in home trial. Grab the speakers and make off to someone's home or business for a side-by-side demo.


Buy whatever you want for whatever reason you want - they look pretty, they're what some guy on the Internet liked, they're the right size, they cost the right amount, or they sound good to you. But just don't argue that buying speakers because they sound the best is wrong. I will recommend that you buy your speakers on how they sound to you and you are the only one who can determine that in the end.


Schadenfreude offered sage advice and gets slammed for it - whatever (and really sad). I certainly hope that this isn't a forum where one's wisdom is measured by the size of his post count, join date ... or checkbook. :cool:
 

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Well, I'm not in the "industry" and I'm a noob compared to most posters here but I don't see what Schadenfreude did that seemed to piss off so many people. From the first post, I wasn't sure how FPB demoed the speakers. Since they were both ID brands I thought he probably received both speakers and sent the ones back he didn't like but the post didn't really say this and some parts made me think it was based on reviews. Either way, I didn't find it clear how he demoed the speakers and see nothing wrong with Schadenfreude asking. I know it is not practical for most people to A/B speakers in their home and I understand that. I do not think it is something that should be required to post a review of the speakers either. I do think that it would be best for all reading if the poster gave some information on how the demo was done though. If that information was not clear, I think asking should be reasonable.


I do not read the boards a lot any more and have to wonder if there may be some prejudice against Schadenfreude from something that happened in other threads that I'm not aware of. Schadenfreude didn't seem to be nearly as rude or confrontational as others in the thread and seemed to try to avoid it. If there is some history I'm missing out on, maybe Schadenfreude deserved the response he received but I saw nothing in this thread that did.
 

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Why don't some of you understand that not everyone can or wants to go to B&Ms to demo and take home speakers. The nearest B&M stores are 50 miles from me. I work a full-time and a part-time job, the time off that I have, I have other things to do than go spend a few hours listening to speakers. There's no guarantee that even if I went, the showrooms would be set up correctly, so they may sound like crap anyway. As far as taking them home to demo, I'm a 5'1" female, 120lbs, do you think I could lug big speakers back & forth from the store, to my home, and back? No, when I bought the speakers that I have, I had to get help to even unpack them. Doing store demos won't tell you how it's gonna sound with your equipment, room, etc, anyway. If you read reviews, and enough people like them, you can get at least an idea of their sonic charicteristics, and be reasonably assured they aren't crap. In the end, if you buy a pair that you don't like, sell them and try out another pair. How hard is that? If you're lucky and have the time to go audition, I say go for it, but not everyone has that luxury. I'd rather spend my time off at home listening to tunes on speakers that I bought unheard and LOVE! :D I did research online for about a year before purchase, though. Point is, however people decide to choose their speakers, good for them, let them enjoy instead of hounding them about the way they came to their decision. If you don't hold weight to their demo method, ignore it. What's next, should we bring home multiple HDTVs/Plasma TVs for in home demos?? :eek:
 
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