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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,


last year Ekki (Cine4Home) reported that they experienced a loss in contrast with many SXRD projectors over their lifetime. See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=222
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=229

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home /forum/post/15046844


We measured a few SXRD projectors already, which are continously losing their native contrast. Worst case is a Pearl, which is already way below 1000:1 natively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home /forum/post/15047981


We do not know how many SXRD projectors will be affected. We measured like 5 of them in the last half year and all showed some degradation in contrast, color unformity and bright corners. This might not be representative (yet), so we do not make ane prognosis.

At that time there were some people suggesting Ekki to have some weird motives to invent false claims. Now I've stumbled across this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168031

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee /forum/post/16936514


I'm fairly new to SXRDI bought a Sony HW10 back in February and was quite pleased with it. (it wasn't perfect, but about as good as I could get for the money)


However, it seems to be ageing very badly.


[...]


Every hundred hours or so when I've gone to do a touch-up calibration it's needed increasingly larger white balance corrections. Some are now around 15/20 points rather than the 1/2 it was when I got it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr /forum/post/16938636


I have seen this type of degradation with many SXRD based products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr /forum/post/16941373


I suspect it is thermal degradation of an adheasive on the SXRD chip, but I do not know for certain. The hotter you get these units the quicker they seem to fail. Image director is not likely to be a permanent fix. It will only get worse over time.


It is one of the reasons I own a JVC product myself.

Now I'm *really* worried.


Does anybody have good Sony contacts and can ask whether this problem was taken care of in the meanwhile? I'd hate to buy e.g. a VW85 only to find out that it ages badly...


Thanks!
 

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long time ago i had a sony qualia.

i sale it to one guy and about 1.5 years later i buy this pr. back from him.


when i sale the pr. the running time was 350 hours when i got it back it have

arround 1400 hours on.


i measure cr. befor i sale it and when i got it back.


the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!


this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with

dust and dust beside some other issues are the biggest cr. killer as i had post here many times in the past.


thats is also "one" reason why i use a barco cinema unit as this is the only

cinema unit that have a closed light engine and therefore

dust not comes so easy inside.

all other cinema pr. have air gabs that is not as good as the barco design.
 

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Discussion Starter #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer /forum/post/17025062


long time ago i had a sony qualia.

i sale it to one guy and about 1.5 years later i buy this pr. back from him.


when i sale the pr. the running time was 350 hours when i got it back it have

arround 1400 hours on.


i measure cr. befor i sale it and when i got it back.


the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!

Ouch! And the loss of CR could not be explained by an aged lamp, I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer /forum/post/17025062


this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with

dust and dust beside some other issues are the biggest cr. killer as i had post here many times in the past.

But both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr, who are both highly respected persons on this forum, have stated that they haven't experienced such contrast loss with JVC projectors. Also I thought that dust was less of a problem for LCOS because you can cool LCOS from the backside while you can cool LCD only from the inside. So basically cooling LCD has to be done "inside" of the light path, while you can cool LCOS separately from the light path.
 

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I have the VW60 and had the VW50. The VW50 (Pearl) had uniformity issues that started out as barely visible on a 100% stim full white pattern, but got significantly worse over a two year period, to the point that it was visible on normal projected video images. My VW60 on the other hand appears to not suffer from this degradation (so far). I don't think there are any consumer projectors out there that don't degrade over time in various ways to some degree.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
@usualsuspects, have you done native contrast measurements when you received your VW60 and later after a couple of hundred hours?


Maybe all projectors do degrade somewhat. But the question is how much. Maybe 10% over a projector's whole lifetime would be acceptable. But 50% after a couple hundreds of hours? I sure hope that's not the norm.
 

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If this was a big problem, don't you think there would have been many threads and posts by Sony owners complaining of lost contrast?


We know what happens when dust gets into a projector's light path: see LCD dust blobs. I don't recall a single case of a SXRD projector dust blob.


I can see cigarette smoke causing issues because it is finer than dust and might find its way into places it should not be. I would not recommend smoking around any projector (or at all for that matter).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi /forum/post/17025140


@usualsuspects, have you done native contrast measurements when you received your VW60 and later after a couple of hundred hours?

I don't have an accurate enough probe to get reliable contrast measurements (anything under 20% stim is not reliable on my probe).


I wonder how much bulb issues and measuring devices limitations have a part to play in this. This argument could be made: Bulb dimming should not matter re contrast - the contrast should be exactly the same, just at a lower peak white level (assuming the projector itself has not degraded - AND - that the bulb has a linear dimming of the specra - this is clearly not the case for any bulb technology). My observation of the images thrown by the vw50 and vw60 is that subjective contrast improves dramatically as the bulb ages and gets dimmer. This appears to be due to the black floor being lowered. I wonder how accurate some of the measurements of the black level are. I know that this is one of the most difficult things to measure accurately - black level. There are so many reasons one could get different measurements at different times in a projectors life that unless you had a very controlled experiment I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from any single data point. Having said that, I think that it is logically (and empirically in the case of my vw50) obvious that any piece of equipment is going to change over time in some way.

Quote:
Maybe all projectors do degrade somewhat. But the question is how much. Maybe 10% over a projector's whole lifetime would be acceptable. But 50% after a couple hundreds of hours? I sure hope that's not the norm.

My experience with the Sony SXRD projectors is that major image quality changes in short periods of time are all related to bulb issues. This has just been my experience with the projectors that I have owned. I hope it is clear that I am not trying to say that projector degradation does not occur with SXRD, I think it does, but getting a handle on "how much" is going to be very difficult - I don't think anyone is willing to do the controlled experiments on a sample of 10 or more of the same model projector that would be needed to give a reasonably scientific answer to this.
 

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Discussion Starter #8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/17025203


If this was a big problem, don't you think there would have been many threads and posts by Sony owners complaining of lost contrast?

Would there be? How many Sony owners measure native contrast multiple times (with exact enough measuring equipment) over the course of the lifetime of their projector? If native contrast slowly degrades, you might never notice. It's not like it jumps from 10k:1 to e.g. 3k:1 in one day.


Ok, so please everyone who has a Sony SXRD projector and who has measured native contrast (with good enough equipment) on the new projector and then later during the lifetime, please post here and let us know your measurement results. I'd be *VERY* happy if aging was not a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspects /forum/post/17025224


I hope it is clear that I am not trying to say that projector degradation does not occur with SXRD, I think it does, but getting a handle on "how much" is going to be very difficult - I don't think anyone is willing to do the controlled experiments on a sample of 10 or more of the same model projector that would be needed to give a reasonably scientific answer to this.

This is exactly the reason why I'm worried: Both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr should have seen plenty of projectors (more than any normal consumer), and they surely have the right equipment (better than any normal consumer) to do reliable tests. So if they both share the same sentiment of SXRD being much more prone to aging compared to D-ILA, that does make me worry.
 

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There have been questions about the aging of SXRD panels since the first RPTV hit the shelves, mostly questions related to the green glob (panel color continuity). This is the first time I've heard anything related to degredation of contrast, but I imagine this is the sort of thing consumers wouldn't notice so readily.


I have a Sony Pearl that still looks pretty good, but I haven't measured contrast.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi /forum/post/17025271


This is exactly the reason why I'm worried: Both Ekki/Cine4Home and umr should have seen plenty of projectors (more than any normal consumer), and they surely have the right equipment (better than any normal consumer) to do reliable tests. So if they both share the same sentiment of SXRD being much more prone to aging compared to D-ILA, that does make me worry.

This just seems like classic FUD (fear, uncertainty doubt). There is no way to disprove it. 10 people can come forward and say that they have no problem. This doesn't prove anything to someone who is worried. The worried person fears that they will be affected even if the 10 unaffected people weren't. Where there are real problems, people tend to notice, especially anal people who frequent these forums.
 

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Discussion Starter #11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/17026521


This just seems like classic FUD (fear, uncertainty doubt). There is no way to disprove it. 10 people can come forward and say that they have no problem. This doesn't prove anything to someone who is worried. The worried person fears that they will be affected even if the 10 unaffected people weren't.

Let only 3 people come forward who made appropriate measurements over the lifetime of their SXRD projector, and say that they have measured no problem and I'll happily shut my mouth.


But evidence is quite the opposite right now: We have 2 totally unrelated experts (Ekki, umr) with access to many projectors who both say that they've experienced aging problems. Then we have 3 consumers (andrewfee, W.Mayer and usualsuspects's VW50) now who say they have experienced SXRD aging problems, too. We don't have a single consumer yet who has measured contrast over the lifetime of his projector and found no aging. Let's wait a few days, maybe some such consumers will show up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/17026521


Where there are real problems, people tend to notice, especially anal people who frequent these forums.

Would you notice a 50% drop in native contrast, if it happened very slowly over the course of a whole year? Even if you didn't expect it and didn't look for it?
 

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"the cr. on off drop by almost 50% the ansi cr. almost the same!


this is not only at lcos pr. or sony pr. every dlp or lcd pr. have to deal with

dust"


I'd expect dust to affect ANSI but not on/off.


An aged lamp could lower CR because of changing shape of the "fireball" and how the light hits the reflector.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 /forum/post/17026732


Is DLP the most problem free then..... theoretically?

Lots of threads out there about noisy or failed colorwheels on DLP. I would turn the question around and ask: what technology or manufacturer or model or whatever is issue-free over the life of the projector? Do I hear crickets?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspects /forum/post/17026951


Lots of threads out there about noisy or failed colorwheels on DLP. I would turn the question around and ask: what technology or manufacturer or model or whatever is issue-free over the life of the projector? Do I hear crickets?

Maybe this would lead one to feel that the best bet for now is to not invest too much in a PJ, and wait a few years and see how LED or the next big thing pans out as far as reliabilty/durability.


For example, buy a Panny 3000 (or something in that neighborhood), enjoy it, and know that you will be lurking for a more "reliable" replacement down the road.
 

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its not the bulb as i change it to a new one after i make the measurments.


than with the new lamp i measured again with the same results

as with the old lamp.


the room where they put this qualia inside was a no smoking conference room.

so very good condition about clean air.


smoking can be a nightmare for most pr.as the partikels are very very small.


dust have more impact on ansi cr. than on on off cr. so seams there is some kind of decrease at polarizer filters i guess as well involved.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi /forum/post/17025271


Would there be? How many Sony owners measure native contrast multiple times (with exact enough measuring equipment) over the course of the lifetime of their projector? ..

I would like to see the data from Cine4Home and UMR on the projectors they have measured and the resulting contrast loss before I reached any conclusions.


IIRC from the original thread Cine4 cited a single VW50 where he had measured significant contrast drop. Has he update us with any additional measurements?


FWIW my (ex-wife's) VW100 just got a bulb change and calibration at 1,400 hours, still doing 3,000:1, 5,000:1 and 16,000:1 on/off. I know, I just paid the bulb replacement bill.
 

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Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod /forum/post/17027560


Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can?

The simple answer is "yes".


To save you any effort, i would be happy to come and collect.

I will make sure it is recycled in an environmentally friendly way.


I will have to perform a few checks first though.

I would want to check that the SXRD panels really do deteriorate.

I would need two to three thousand hours to make sure.

After that, i would return the projector to you if it proves unfounded.

If it turns out that the panels have failed, i will bin it immediately!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan /forum/post/17027535


IIRC from the original thread Cine4 cited a single VW50 where he had measured significant contrast drop.

Just look at the first post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan /forum/post/17027535


FWIW my (ex-wife's) VW100 just got a bulb change and calibration at 1,400 hours, still doing 3,000:1, 5,000:1 and 16,000:1 on/off. I know, I just paid the bulb replacement bill.

Sounds good. Are these the numbers you got when the projector was new, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod /forum/post/17027560


Does this mean I should take my VW200 and toss it in the garbage can?

No, you're supposed to measure it and tell us whether there was a contrast loss...
 
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