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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

Hello everyone,

 

is there any way that active shutter glasses just sync once with a monitor, and dont relly in continuous Bluetoth/Infared communication so they can play with monitors from crts to every 120hz+ monitor that has no emmiter? Of course no nvidia.
 

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From my personal experience across the various platforms (Bluetooth, IR, and DLP-Link), all of the active 3D systems require that the glasses maintain sync with the display or the 3D effect is lost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Oh, and by the way no DLP.

 

This cannot be true (that glasses nedd to maintain connection); any monitor runs at a fixed (not variable) framerate ( i.e. HZ) unless the user changes it, so glasses (those too run at a fixed framerate/HZ) should work fine if they get to sync once (you may though need a "flip switch" because a 3d content may start at even/odd time).

Of course this might BE true for games, but I dont know how the game/monitor sync works (thus glasses may need to resync).

By the way, any idea how the eDimensional kit(s) works?

 

EDIT: so if the above are indeed true, then the continuous sync "methods" are just a "made" necessity so a company can sell their own and not loose that market segment with universal active 3d glasees..
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24486228


Hello everyone,


is there any way that active shutter glasses just sync once with a monitor, and dont relly in continuous Bluetoth/Infared communication so they can play with monitors from crts to every 120hz+ monitor that has no emmiter? Of course no nvidia.

It is not possible to even sync them once, without sending a signal to them at a precise moment. So if you could do this once, keep doing this, would be the easy part.

So technically, the difficult part would be to keep a single initial sync for the duration of a movie (which would actually require two initial signals so that the glasses could measure the frame rate), because it would require a very high precision internal clock inside the glasses (a quartz in stabilized temperature), and also an equally high precision internal clock in the source (PC, blu ray, camcorder, broadcast stations). So even if you made the "perfect" glasses, that wouldn't work for more than a few seconds, as the sources' clock isn't precise at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Are you telling me that a PC monitor hasn't accurate 120hz per sec, and that a quartz (that most watches have if I am correct) is too much to put in glasses (do monitors have quartz as well?) ? Hard to accept that, cause as far as I know a monitor (not talking for crts) if says 120hz then IT IS 120hz.

 

Correct me if I am wrong.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24515359


Are you telling me that a PC monitor hasn't accurate 120hz per sec, and that a quartz (that most watches have if I am correct) is too much to put in glasses (do monitors have quartz as well?) ? Hard to accept that, cause as far as I know a monitor (not talking for crts) if says 120hz then IT IS 120hz.


Correct me if I am wrong.

It probably won't happen. It wouldn't be cost effective, since the manufacturers can already maintain sync with a continuous signal. And there honestly aren't many people looking for this capability (you're the only one I know of), so it's an extremely small niche market.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

The reason I ask for this is because:

 

1) not all monitors have FM/bluethooth emmiter (even with this method, isn't any delay until the glasses recieve the signal?)

2) I dont want IR in my face

3) I dont want "line of sight" methods (dlp/IR)

4) I dont want constant bluetooth radiation (just a little bit for sync ok, but continuous no)

5) nvidia out of question
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24515359


Are you telling me that a PC monitor hasn't accurate 120hz per sec, and that a quartz (that most watches have if I am correct) is too much to put in glasses (do monitors have quartz as well?) ?


Correct me if I am wrong.
Most devices don't use quartz crystals, they use ceramic resonators which cost less and take less space, but they are 250 times less accurate. A common quartz has +-20ppm accuracy (1/50000) vs 0.5% accuracy of a common resonator (1/200). This means that even if all devices (camcorders, video recorders, blu rays, glasses etc) had quartz crystals, after 50000 frames, the sync would be off by a whole frame, which at 60fps would happen in 50000/60fps/60sec = 13.9 minutes, but the problem would be apparent much earlier, in less than 2% of that time = 16 seconds.

Only if both the current playback device and the glasses were using a temperature controlled quartz (oven) as I mentioned earlier, that would increase precision about 1000 times and only then it would be feasible to watch a whole movie without noticeable sync loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24515359


Hard to accept that, cause as far as I know a monitor (not talking for crts) if says 120hz then IT IS 120hz.
That would require infinite precision to be absolutely true.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24515577


The reason I ask for this is because:


1) not all monitors have FM/bluethooth emmiter (even with this method, isn't any delay until the glasses recieve the signal?)

2) I dont want IR in my face

3) I dont want "line of sight" methods (dlp/IR)

4) I dont want constant bluetooth radiation (just a little bit for sync ok, but continuous no)

5) nvidia out of question

1. The delay of the Ir/radio signal by the speed of light for a few meters is negligible in this case.

2, 3, 4. Try to make/hack a custom wired pair of glasses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Whoa, ok, interesting.. I had no idea on this topic. But are u sure that moniotrs and glasses use ceramic oscilators? Arent there any other cheap accurate oscilators?

A bit trolling, I have no knowledge in integrated circuits and electronics so just to get the idea: perhaps a config of two oscilators, lets just say one @ 1hz per sec (meaning one tick per sec), which in turn activates a second oscilator @ etc. 120hz, both in monitor and glasses; wouldn't that be more acuurate?

 

Anyway, how to do 3d with a monitor that has no emmiter and a pc that has any kind of gpu? Hacking/custom is a last option, so any "normal"/less hacky way is welcome!

 

EDIT: I talk about dealy in FM way (not IR/DLP) due to circuitry, connection method and such.
 

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- Precision costs, so it is only used when it is needed. Your concept requires ultra high precision which costs even more and there is no cheaper alternative.

- You would get exactly the same precision but a huge and expensive crystal would be required for 1hz. That's why such crystals don't exist.

- Any consistent delay can be compensated in the TV / monitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24516577


Anyway, how to do 3d with a monitor that has no emmiter and a pc that has any kind of gpu? Hacking/custom is a last option, so any "normal"/less hacky way is welcome!
1. Cheapest option: Anaglyph. Cons: You get only 2/3 of the colors max (the wrong ones), plus eye strain.


2. Medium priced option: 1080p passive 3D TV, or monitor. Cons: You get half the vertical resolution for each eye. Some cheap passive monitors have almost disturbing picture quality.


3. Best option (but for a new cheap Nvidia graphics card): Ultra HD passive 3D TV (3840 x 2160). In contrast to option #2, the Ultra HD resolution provides a full HD 3D picture. So you get full HD 3D, flicker-free image with the cheapest glasses and no sync issues, plus a 4K resolution for photos, 4k camcorders and for future 4k broadcasts and blu rays. Cons: Higher price.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24516577


Whoa, ok, interesting.. I had no idea on this topic. But are u sure that moniotrs and glasses use ceramic oscilators? Arent there any other cheap accurate oscilators?

A bit trolling, I have no knowledge in integrated circuits and electronics so just to get the idea: perhaps a config of two oscilators, lets just say one @ 1hz per sec (meaning one tick per sec), which in turn activates a second oscilator @ etc. 120hz, both in monitor and glasses; wouldn't that be more acuurate?


Anyway, how to do 3d with a monitor that has no emmiter and a pc that has any kind of gpu? Hacking/custom is a last option, so any "normal"/less hacky way is welcome!


EDIT: I talk about dealy in FM way (not IR/DLP) due to circuitry, connection method and such.

In high-speed electronics, "cheap" and "accurate" don't go together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Thanks for the info so far guys!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24517352



In high-speed electronics, "cheap" and "accurate" don't go together.
I said I dont have any expertise on this topic, and I dont know about much about oscilators/alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoToS  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24517317


- Precision costs, so it is only used when it is needed. Your concept requires ultra high precision which costs even more and there is no cheaper alternative.

- You would get exactly the same precision but a huge and expensive crystal would be required for 1hz. That's why such crystals don't exist.

- Any consistent delay can be compensated in the TV / monitor.
-ok.

-Are you sure? Cause if the 1hz is accurate (enough), then even if the second (120hz) is innacurate, it only pulses 120 times and then (acording to my thought) resets, so the decline might be measureless. Also how the monitors change their hz and can have a various range of hz?

-What do you mean by that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoToS  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24517317



1. Cheapest option: Anaglyph. Cons: You get only 2/3 of the colors max (the wrong ones), plus eye strain.


2. Medium priced option: 1080p passive 3D TV, or monitor. Cons: You get half the vertical resolution for each eye. Some cheap passive monitors have almost disturbing picture quality.


3. Best option (but for a new cheap Nvidia graphics card): Ultra HD passive 3D TV (3840 x 2160). In contrast to option #2, the Ultra HD resolution provides a full HD 3D picture. So you get full HD 3D, flicker-free image with the cheapest glasses and no sync issues, plus a 4K resolution for photos, 4k camcorders and for future 4k broadcasts and blu rays. Cons: Higher price.
1. Out of  question of course! Who even though of it in first place? Its just the most horrible way for 3d.

2. I am thinking of it; perhaps a checkerboard pattern will be the best option. Any thoughts on this?

3. No nvidia. I cant afford 4k, no need for that. Plus I want 120hz monitor (144hz monitor so 120hz doesn't drive the monitor in the fullest) , not gong back to any less (recently I bough benq xl2411t, returned 2 times back, and finaly returned for good and got my money back, cause it had the scanlines issue only @ 120hz).

 

So there is no way that I can do active 3d? There must be away! Its absurd that you have to buy nvidia!
 

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Malekos, you want to sync two devices (the display and glasses) together and with the video signal. Even with all the circuitry in the display, every single frame of video has a sync component to keep the display's video in sync with the information in the signal. If a display--with all its processing power and internal clocking--has to be essentially re-synced every frame, why would glasses be any different or easier to do with a one-time sync?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

I know that now, I didnt said more against it, so the only question is how to do active 3d with any monitor that has no emmiter and with any kind of gpu.

I thought that the problem could be easily solved with my suggestion, given the fact that the timings were perfect, but as you guys said, thats not happening.

 

Anyone with experience with chekerboard passive 3d vs line-by-line?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Anyone, any ideas (checkerboard in particular)?

After a bit research, I think that the (any) monitor syncs with the signal from gpu, hence my ex-monitor that had no emmiter can sync with the nvidia kit. So if I get it right, both monitor and glasses acually sync with the gpu, right? So, how to sync glasses with the video signal?

 

Side note: I had contacted before xpand3d about my monitor, and told me that the cannot do anything, cause only nvidia (and thus amd too perhaps) have "access" to the lower levels of gpu, hence the can get the sync signal via usb uninterrupted.

 

So no usb for anyone else, so what about a small gizmo/adapter that gets between the gpu and monitor (connect to the cable) and gets the sync signal, and then transmits the signal to glasses (wired/wireless)?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekos  /t/1522663/sync-once-3d-active-shutter-glasses-for-120hz-monitors-no-nvidia-of-course#post_24547025


so what about a small gizmo/adapter that gets between the gpu and monitor (connect to the cable) and gets the sync signal, and then transmits the signal to glasses (wired/wireless)?
This is how other companies did the sync about a decade ago. They provided the sync with an adapter that was placed between the gpu and monitor. Then you had to plug the wired glasses or the infrared emitter. Amazon has such a cheap (wired) kit listed. Search Amazon for "3D Wired Shutter Glasses". It requires a vga output.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

I DIDNT KNEW IT! What I said was just a plain thought! Then why this is sort of "buried"? There was almost no reference besides yours!


There is no point to look for old hardware, the lcds in these will be slow. U need a good responsive lcd. Is there any new aproach in this method?
 

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The newest I can think of is Nvidia's 3D Vision Wired Glasses for PC.

Another approach: Some older (by a few years) AMD FirePro graphics cards and Nvidia Quadro had a Vesa 3-pin stereo connector for glasses or emitter. Current models from these series are normally very expensive -but not the older ones, but I wouldn't buy them unless I talked to someone that still uses one of them today (after I found glasses with that Vesa 3-pin connector).

Two examples:
DELL G953M AMD FIREPRO V8700 1GB PCI-E GDDR5
Dell 1.5GB nVIDIA Quadro FX4800 PCI-E .
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Not options for me; What I found is that all I need is a SYNC SPLITER with Vesa 3-pin port. I saw a vga dongle, but I use dvi-d (dual), and keep in mind dispaly port. How to extract the vsync signals from dvi-d? Any dongles?
 
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