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We received this today through the contact form on our website:


Name: Ethan Winer

Email: xxx

Phone: xx

IP address: xx


Hi Ted,


This is just the first of *many* to follow:

h ttp:// www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1251291


Ted, if you want a war, I'll give you a war and I promise you will lose.


Again, I am not David L or any of those other people you and your pal Frog think I am. I understand your frustration that someone who actually knows how audio works and has the balls to expose ******** is taking you on. Such is life. I feel sorry for you. I really do.
 

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^^^


it's highly unlikely that you will find much sympathy here... ethan is highly respected in these environs... and rightfully so....


posting private communications is EXTREMELY bad form...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer /forum/post/18669249


pretty much everything that company sells is based on pseudo-science BS

--Ethan

I think that's a really unfair statement - I've used a lot of cables and treatments over the years and honestly the Synergistic stuff is the best I've heard. Maybe it's not for you, maybe there's a specific kind of tone that you prefer but for me at least adding their cables made a bigger difference in overall 'audiophile experience' than anything else I've done.


I for one have a set of MIGs - I put them under my Denon AVP - and it made a difference. Not sure how or why, but it added something measurable. My suggestion would be to try a set, return them if you don't like them.


BTW: I also have their Power Cell and their speaker cables. The best $$ I have spent on gear.
 

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hoo boy.... here we go again....



if the best money you ever spent on gear was for cables and "power cell", i'd hate to think what you have for speakers (not to mention the rest of your equipment)...


it's (imo) silly statements like that that drive the objective crowd into frothing at the mouth....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj /forum/post/18670960


i'd hate to think what you have for speakers (not to mention the rest of your equipment)...

.

I appreciate that you can comment on the outcome of my investments in audio while having never heard my system.



I have a nice set of components: Denon AVP, Mac 501s, and B&W 802Ds. They sound great - each item I've added has made a nice difference, different cables have added different qualities, playing around with speaker placement has helped with balance, etc. My system is not an esoteric audiophile-grade setup, but I think it's really good for a music + HT setup.


I have had a number of successful mods to my system - as an example adding the Mcintosh amps really made a huge difference in the sound of my system. It warmed it up, but also added a ton of dynamics. Very big difference.


The Synergistic interconnects actually added more impact than the amps - suddenly it wasn't 'stereo' anymore, it was like having a live sound in my room. Every instrument had the right placement from left to right. I had previously used Nordost and Goertz - they were both really good but the Synergistic was in a different league.


The biggest improvement? Synergistic power cables and their Power Cell conditioner. Yes - the biggest improvement was improving the quality of the power. I have no idea why - I'm actually a skeptic on this front - but it really genuinely turned my sound into something altogether different. Without it my system sounded great, with it my system sounds amazing. Notes float in the air now, like they're suspended in water. Makes no sense to me, but that's the way it sounds, and everyone that hears it says the same thing. My business partner is a DSP scientist and a skeptic. He says it can't work. He also says that my system is the best he has ever heard. Ever. One of my best friends is amongst the most respected audio engineer-types in Hollywood (film, not music). He literally said WOW when he heard my rig. And then he just sat there. Yes, driven by a Denon and some nice commercial gear.


So, call me silly, you have lots of posts over me to add to your credibility. But you should know that this stuff actually makes a huge improvement. Given my experience, I would suggest you try some of the stuff out, then comment. My guess is you'll be pretty surprised...
 

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I have No credentials to speak of so my post here will probably be of little use, that being said...


Are you f'ing kidding me? Sound reproduction is not magical. If your system sounds good, it's because of good gear and setup. That's it. No isolation mounts or power conditioner or speaker wire is going to lift any veil or separate sounds left from right. Not unless you were using 30 guage wire and a power cord from 1902.


You say measurable result. Show me the measurments. Show me your measurments standards and I can guarantee they are not up to the standards to be taken seriously.


People that perpetuate this bull should be ashamed of themselves. People that sell this bull should be put out of business.


Edit: As a small aside but still related, when I read publications like stereophile talking about speaker wire changing the tone of a speaker, I really want to just throw up. These are grown men, getting paid, for what? They obviously have no idea what they are doing if they are spewing this crap. I'm not saying everyone, but more than once have I read such nonsense in respected mags.


Sorry for the rant but this stuff really makes my blood boil. It's like a bunch of Nice, well educated, well off men are literally morons...


This kind of crap gives true "audiophiles" a bad name.


Whether that is mr winer or not, doesn't matter, bad form for a company. If it is though, good for him. Someone needs to shut these

people up.
 

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I'm confused - why would anyone get upset about things that they themselves have never experienced? Do you have the equipment that I have? Have you heard the changes in the quality of sound that I have? Have you had the people listen to the differences that I have?


This is my last post on the subject, but you should know that your blood can boil because you don't believe in the idea that changes in the signal flow can dramatically influence the overall quality of the sound, but it doesn't make it untrue. It only makes it something you don't believe in. I myself have never - EVER - met a person who is presented with an A/B comparison of different interconnect cables that doesn't hear a marked difference. I know platinum record producers who go around town with their own power cables. Why? Because they hear a huge difference with them. Are they giving you 'audiophiles' a bad name? Or are they just producing albums that go platinum?


I understand that I can't win an argument on a posting board - and I shouldn't even try. But I want to be clear: the changes that the addition of great interconnect and power added to my system are remarkable. This is not a subjective conclusion, it's what I myself have seen. Now, if you're happy with your system the way it sounds, then be happy. If you're not happy with it, then find a way to make it sound better. But don't just sit back in your smug negative way and make grand statements about things that you yourself have not directly experienced. It makes you seem like someone who is more interested in being 'right' than in actually knowing something. Given your interest in high end audio I will personally assume this isn't accurate, but re-read your post and I'm sure you'll see how others might reach that conclusion...
 

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Zeejayzee, the higher the resolution your system + the better your room acoustics = directly impacts the degree cables, power cords and interconnects make. What your hearing is real. Enjoy the improvements to your system! You, I or anyone else will never convince the vocal at AVS that cables can make a difference. It is the readers in the background that often see the other side of the fence and try them for themselves. Many here are just too blinded by a never ending quest to find objective scientific evidence.


I recently did a blind study of high end sub cables from JPS labs and Synergistic Research vs Mogami Pro xlr cable. They ALL sounded noticeably different and the blind study proved no placebo at work. If you ask members here what to get for a sub cable they will anwer with just get a $20 sub cable and their justification, low frequencies (or any frequencies for that matter) make no difference with a very high end interconnect. Completely wrong. Sub frequencies with a high quality cable have a direct impact on hearing high quality sound at all frequencies, including the bass. What they are all missing! If they ever see the light, they will do so quietly and never post about it.
 

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I would love to pick apart every sentence here, but I don't have that kind of time.


If there is a difference, measure it.


My cousin doesnt change his underwear for days at a time because it affects his luck. He's a pretty lucky guy...but an idiot all the same.


People will hear a difference everytime because of bias. Especially the one who just spent alot of money on wires and power conditioning.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe52985 /forum/post/18671888


I would love to pick apart every sentence here, but I don't have that kind of time.


If there is a difference, measure it.


My cousin doesnt change his underwear for days at a time because it affects his luck. He's a pretty lucky guy...but an idiot all the same.


People will hear a difference everytime because of bias. Especially the one who just spent alot of money on wires and power conditioning.

A VERY carefully done BLIND study proved otherwise, no placebo and no bias. When the results were in, I thought about you guys....



Care to describe your system, room acoustics and cables you have tried/compared? Not including cables you just read about?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex /forum/post/18671902


A VERY carefully done BLIND study proved otherwise, no placebo and no bias. When the results were in, I thought about you guys....



Care to describe your system, room acoustics and cables you have tried/compared? Not including cables you just read about?

Can you point me to the study? Would be an interesting read. When it comes to an individuals taste, to each his own I guess. The problem is companies propagating bad science covered up with fancy and passionate wording.


I feel no need to tell you about my setup. It's modest, at best. My speaker cable is 14 guage home depot though
. I don't feel I'm missing anything.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeejayzee /forum/post/18671586


why would anyone get upset about things that they themselves have never experienced? Do you have the equipment that I have? Have you heard the changes in the quality of sound that I have? Have you had the people listen to the differences that I have?

That's a great question. I object to scammers selling bogus audio products for the same reason I object to scammers selling any BS product. This includes "alternative" medicine, magic magnets that claim to increase your gas mileage, weight loss miracle diets, ad nauseum.


As for assessing and understanding the affect of audio tweaks products, here are two links I promise you will find interesting:

A common-sense explanation of audiophile beliefs
AES Audio Myths Workshop


When you understand what's explained in the article and video above, you'll understand why products such as those sold by Synergistic Research are a scam based on wishful thinking rather than science.


You may also find this interesting: Companies that sell BS tweaks rarely offer proof of their efficacy. Often they'll say that "science" doesn't know how to measure what their products do, to explain away a lack of verifiable product data. But Ted Denney, head of Synergistic, bucked that trend two years ago by promising in another forum to offer proof that his magic ART bowls improve room acoustics in a way that can be measured using conventional metrics.


A year later, after much badgering from me and others to fulfill his promise, Ted finally posted waterfall graphs made with the Room EQ Wizard software showing Before and After in a large loft using nine of these way-too-small doo-dads. As an acoustic expert who uses REW all the time, I immediately spotted Ted's data as falsified. Both the Before and After graph were exactly the same, with only the software's window settings changed to make it look like the response and ringing were improved at bass frequencies. Of course I called him out in public, and eventually Ted admitted his data was, let's just say, "not correct." He promised to provide corrected data soon, but that was a year ago.


Such intentional faking of data shows that this guy is not only selling BS, but also shows that he knows he's selling BS. It doesn't get any more dishonest than that.



--Ethan
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe52985 /forum/post/18672376


Can you point me to the study? Would be an interesting read. When it comes to an individuals taste, to each his own I guess. The problem is companies propagating bad science covered up with fancy and passionate wording.


I feel no need to tell you about my setup. It's modest, at best. My speaker cable is 14 guage home depot though
. I don't feel I'm missing anything.

he can't, because it doesn't exist... he's tried to bring these "studies" up before, and the flaws in them have been repeatedly pointed out...


zeejay, if you've never met a person who can't hear a "marked difference" between interconnects, you need to look farther than the mirror...
as far as the rest of it, classic expectation bias placebo...
 

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That's all Mr. Synergistic had to offer? One post? In the words of Creedy from V for Vendetta, "Pathetic."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrags /forum/post/18668825


Anyone using the Synergistic MIGs under their Equipment?

The Russians still fly some MIGs but not sure if they are Synergistic or not. Not sure if they have them in your size though.
 

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I find it very interesting that there is so much controversy on this subject. On one side you have the 'purist audiophiles' who think that you're crazy if your cables aren't suspended on a polymer web hand woven by french gypsies who are electromagnetically inert. On the other side you have the folks who think that any attempt to improve the quality of your sound by upgrading the quality of cables or power is a silly, useless waste of time.


There's tremendous rigidity of thought on both sides. Question I have is: who actually wants to be a rigid thinker? When you're young, we call that a know it all. Is it any better when we're older?


The FACT is that cable makes a difference. It's actually makes little sense to argue otherwise. Let's look at HDMI cable as an example - I have used very cheap HDMI cable and I have also used expensive cable. To me, the visual differences are not very noticeable - there might be a difference but if there is one it's not something that I'm too concerned about. I'm told I'll get deeper blacks, slightly more sharpness, etc, with better cable. Doesn't matter to me. See, I don't care with regards to HDMI - but it doesn't mean that better cable won't improve the quality, it just means that my feelings on the subject aren't too strong. Now, take the cheap HDMI cable, and stretch to, say 15 feet. Suddenly there are HDMI handshake issues. Stretch it out to 50 feet, and there's no chance my DVD player synchs to my TV. Replace it with expensive HDMI cable (as I have had to do), and everything is fine. Hmmm - better cable handshakes, cheaper stuff doesn't. Why? Maybe the better cable has slightly less transmission loss of the digital signal.


Now, look at audio. The interconnects as an example carry similar signal, though because it's analog there's no binary connection like with HDMI. The signal can change in infinite ways between the preamp and the amp, and the amp will still take that signal and pump it way up. These changes are really small, but the signal itself gets amplified many many times, so whatever change there is becomes much more obvious. The more accurate the amp and speaker - and the better the room sounds - the more obvious these changes become. Yes, just like an HDMI cable can change the signal enough to lose synch, an analog cable can change the audio signal enough to modify the sound. In fact, it makes much less sense to believe otherwise - to believe that somehow the microdynamics of the signal woud be unchanged by the cable. That's actually far less reasonable a position to take. The material of the cable, the length of the cable, the diameter of the cable, the dialectric, the quality of the ends of the cable: how can these NOT affect the sound? Well, of course they do.


Take it to an extreme: use a hair-thin, unshielded strip of copper to connect all of your components. Does that sound good? Have fun with that. One of you guys uses 14 gauge cable. Why not 50 gauge? Probably because you know that the thicker the gauge the better the transmission. So why stop at 14? You all probably believe that the shielding matters. So why not the kind of shielding? Well, actually, it does matter what type of shielding.


How about inductance? Yes, that matters too, just look at low-inductance cable - like Goertz. Ever try it? The cable's material and winding pattern allows the electrons to run very smoothly down the signal path - the US military uses that cable for a number of installations where speedy transmission is essential. (oh, yes, the military believes VERY strongly in the differences between cable). The downside? Low inductance usually translates into high capacitance. Go ask any electrical engineer what high capacitance does to audio (you may know the effect as what we call a low-pass filter). Not surprisingly, Goertz is known in the audiophile world as a good cable to smooth out harsh sounding systems. B&W dealers used to sell it with their older 800 series speakers to offset some of the tweeter's bright qualities. Now, according to some of you this is all nonsense, no cable can make the sound any different from another. But in the case of Goertz, the low-pass effects of the cable reduces some of the higher frequencies. Oh, and BTW this is all fully measured - the response of the cable (both its electrical properties and its effect on sound) have been fully measured. Go ask the Navy.


So here we have cable material, winding pattern, inductance, resistance, capacitance, shielding, gauge, dialectric, length... each of which clearly have an impact on sound (that's why you are not using a single strand of unshielded copper for your systems). Each of these is fully measureable. So I ask: how is it possible that anyone can claim that cable doesn't make a difference in the quality of a sound system? Not to be snarky, but it's like believing the earth is flat even after seeing pictures proving otherwise.


I read the articles that Ethan put up - I appreciate his biased passion for his belief, but from my perspective (and yes, my perspective is biased, too), his is a singular mission: to show that any claims regarding high-end audio - outside of the use of his own acoustic panels - are BS, a pseudo-science, and that somehow all of the incremental changes that I and everyone else has heard in my system were a function of slight adjustments to my ear placement. Instead of the more likely probability that the changes to my system were the outcome of significantly different materials and cable design carrying the signal to my amps.


So here's the thing - if you're happy with your sound and don't think that cable makes much of a difference, that's great. Being happy with your sound is the only thing that matters. If you're not happy, you should try playing around with different combinations of componentry and cabling. It really makes a difference. But commenting so rigidly on someone else's journey to audio nirvana is just not cool, and it's not the reason why most people use these boards.
 

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typing a lot of words will not change the fact that you are incorrect...



when you can present proof, rather than just tying together a bunch of phrases, then you might make some headway...


Ethan (and others) have science and tests on their side.


you don't.
 

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I appreciate the diplomatic approach, and like I said, to each his

own. Science has proven again and again that the type of difference you are hearing (large, unmistakable) just doesn't happen with cables unless your previous cables were defective.


If a cable/wire/box changes the frequency response of a speaker by acting like a high pass filter or something like that, it's either poorly designed or made by deceptive individuals.


The main goal for all of us is accurate reproduction of movies or music. If something brings us closer to the goal and is within our means, perfect. This psuedo-science just muddies the waters and leads people to make bad decisions with hard earned money.


There are alot of very smart people here, and you would be well served to pay attention to what they say.
 
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