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yea...they sounded way different than my lrs and my focals and every speaker I have heard recently...very different.
I'll go as I will be live blogging the show so that will include the Pokes.

Mark's employer, Vertical Scope, cancelled his flight, reservations and plans to go because of the Corona virus.

You know I don't mince words about anything. And I tell it as I hear it, which makes a bunch of peeps quite unhappy with me. They, however, are free to go and do some live posts of their own instead of it all me.
 

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I'll go as I will be live blogging the show so that will include the Pokes.

Mark's employer, Vertical Scope, cancelled his flight, reservations and plans to go because of the Corona virus.

You know I don't mince words about anything. And I tell it as I hear it, which makes a bunch of peeps quite unhappy with me. They, however, are free to go and do some live posts of their own instead of it all me.

I like your vlogs...do what you do.
 

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Discussion Starter #223
you’re talking about playing odds. it is not possible to test a fraction and make it statistically acceptable to say “99.999%” because of that “human mind”.

yes. i am a medical professional. and medicine is mostly about guessing “believe it or not”. you get lab results or imaging results or even pathology results and most will say “could be this, this, or this”. and the biggest farce is people actually believe that we say “yep, you 99.999% chance you have this...”. of course i am exaggerating a bit, but the point is made. that being said, there ARE certain things we can say “yes, you have this, i am 100% positive”. but it isnt as many things as you would like to think.

the saying “there are no sure things in life” comes to mind. and while 99.999% iant a sure thing, 99.999% isnt realistically achievable most of the time when discussing human perception.


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I think we're talking past one another. You don't need to test 100% of the people to see how they perceive THD to have statistical confidence in the bell-curve you generate. Once you generate the bell-curve, you have the limits of what the tested humans can hear. If there's a human outside the bell-curve, their anatomy would, likely, have to be sufficiently different from the tested ones, yes?

Now, you have the limits, you measure the gear. Under the limit? Yes. Under it by a wide margin? Yes. Well, with pretty good confidence, we can say those in the bell-curve can't hear the THD generated by the component, agree? If yes, then we can disagree on how to extrapolate the bell-curve to the rest of the population, but...I think we can agree to disagree there, because, to date, under controlled tests, the bell-curve bears out in practice. Like I said, find me the outlier, then we'll adjust.

So, we're still back to, "we aren't measuring enough". Fine...what else can we measure? That's on you, though...I can't think of anything. I'd rather simulate the human "perfectly" and then measure my simulation. Barring that, I can simulate the entire signal chain (through our knowledge of physics) like I mentioned way, way, back in the thread. If I simulate the entire signal chain and "measure" the expected cone-response of the speaker, then, under super-high-speed camera, and say, see how well my simulation matches the real event, well...now we're getting somewhere.

Actually, that just spawned another thought. I mean, the speakers *are* the signal generators. Wonder if we could figure out how much we must modulate them differently to change our perception and then record them at super high speed with different amps and compare that recording.... If there's no difference in how the cones move, there can be no difference how we hear it. If there is a difference, it has to be of sufficient amount to be audible....awwwww crap, what amount is that...back to (in your opinion) not being able to accurately measure it?
 

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Where, in your bolded statement, is there anything with a 3rd dimension. I consider 3d listening to mean I can close my eyes and triangulate in 3d space the location of the image. I can't do that, not in a live performance, not in my 2-channel rig. I don't know if I can do it with headphone 3D stuff, but I'd bet I have a better shot at it because there everything needed to do it can be controlled in the tiny room around each ear (unlike your room which would need to be dead as heck with flashlight speakers pointing strictly to your left and right ears to be headphone like, right?).

Now, the things you are describing in that paragraph -- that I can perceive with my system. It is incredible! And, I get similar effects on modern music, too. Little tiny bright artificial objects that twinkle around my sound-stage are the most fun. I also really love when I can hear an overdub, like voice-on-voice right next to one another, one a bit quieter than the other. None of this, IMO, is "3D", though.

That said, ALL OF IT, is something I'd LOVE to join up with some exceptional signal processing folks and try to create an "AI listener" to show me -- like: "I", the AI listener, at 1:10 in the track, hear: signal x, 5' from the left wall, it has width 4", dB level q, it lasted for 2 seconds; in addition, "I" hear signal y, 6' from the left wall, etc, etc. That would be some bad-arse computer program! AND, should I be able to one day create it, I may recreate my Dad's dream of an algorithmic, true-to-source, "light show" -- like artificial synesthesia!
Different paradigms.

And, no not with headphones as that is very different.

I want to do this with no DSP and one stereo mic preferably in all analog. I want to keep this as simple as possible so that's what I strive for.

I will say that even at nearly 80 years of age, there's a bunch of electronica that's I find quite fun, given the synthetic three dimensional aspects of the creation.
 

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the sales guy when playing the polks as I sat in the prepositioned listening chair...said no, these arent those speakers...get up walk around. I was like wtf...very different in a great way party/whole room/house speaker/sound. most chest slam I have ever heard at low volumes. was listening to old rock and roll.
Yeah, like the Beogram 90s at the show a couple of years ago. Almost 'beam forming'
 

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I like your vlogs...do what you do.
I do or I won't do it.

Last year was tough because of who I had with me badgering me not to do it all and how he hates forums, etc. This year should be better because I can see, and hopefully, in a better mood because no one is going with me.

It will be an open thread so anyone can post too so we have a bit of varying opinions. Mine is hugely the minority for a forum such as AVS. This is not 'naturally' my place to be so that's why I'm here.
 

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Discussion Starter #227
Different paradigms.

And, no not with headphones as that is very different.

I want to do this with no DSP and one stereo mic preferably in all analog. I want to keep this as simple as possible so that's what I strive for.

I will say that even at nearly 80 years of age, there's a bunch of electronica that's I find quite fun, given the synthetic three dimensional aspects of the creation.
Maybe one day I'll get to hear your system, maybe you'll get to hear mine, but...I think your "3D" is my "2D with SPL differences", lol. Is the SPL difference the 3rd dimension?

The messed up part, this really goes back to my dynamic range thread. I really think it's the "third dimension" that I now hear a lot that makes me perceive music that isn't very dynamic as being more dynamic. If, in the middle of a complex recording, all of a sudden, at a tiny little spot in a sound-stage (or even a large spot) some sound just pops up out of nowhere (especially if it is a high frequency sound) I "perceive it" as more dynamic. And that happens all the time.... I just can't explain it well.

Did you ever listen to that Sunn O))) stuff I posted? It does this a lot. But, you have to get past the droning...though, the droning is very interesting at times! It'll be like someone just cranked some odd little knob just offset from the right speaker, just a touch, in the middle of some other droning, and (if I were actually a synesthete) I'd imagine it like a pop of light from that spot just got brighter and brighter and then it was shut off. Then, another one, from the left this time, ooooooooooh boy, here it comes. It's sick. It's not "3D", though, lol.
 

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I think we're talking past one another. You don't need to test 100% of the people to see how they perceive THD to have statistical confidence in the bell-curve you generate. Once you generate the bell-curve, you have the limits of what the tested humans can hear. If there's a human outside the bell-curve, their anatomy would, likely, have to be sufficiently different from the tested ones, yes?

Now, you have the limits, you measure the gear. Under the limit? Yes. Under it by a wide margin? Yes. Well, with pretty good confidence, we can say those in the bell-curve can't hear the THD generated by the component, agree? If yes, then we can disagree on how to extrapolate the bell-curve to the rest of the population, but...I think we can agree to disagree there, because, to date, under controlled tests, the bell-curve bears out in practice. Like I said, find me the outlier, then we'll adjust.

So, we're still back to, "we aren't measuring enough". Fine...what else can we measure? That's on you, though...I can't think of anything. I'd rather simulate the human "perfectly" and then measure my simulation. Barring that, I can simulate the entire signal chain (through our knowledge of physics) like I mentioned way, way, back in the thread. If I simulate the entire signal chain and "measure" the expected cone-response of the speaker, then, under super-high-speed camera, and say, see how well my simulation matches the real event, well...now we're getting somewhere.

Actually, that just spawned another thought. I mean, the speakers *are* the signal generators. Wonder if we could figure out how much we must modulate them differently to change our perception and then record them at super high speed with different amps and compare that recording.... If there's no difference in how the cones move, there can be no difference how we hear it. If there is a difference, it has to be of sufficient amount to be audible....awwwww crap, what amount is that...back to (in your opinion) not being able to accurately measure it?
What if there's no cone?
 

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Maybe one day I'll get to hear your system, maybe you'll get to hear mine, but...I think your "3D" is my "2D with SPL differences", lol. Is the SPL difference the 3rd dimension?

The messed up part, this really goes back to my dynamic range thread. I really think it's the "third dimension" that I now hear a lot that makes me perceive music that isn't very dynamic as being more dynamic. If, in the middle of a complex recording, all of a sudden, at a tiny little spot in a sound-stage (or even a large spot) some sound just pops up out of nowhere (especially if it is a high frequency sound) I "perceive it" as more dynamic. And that happens all the time.... I just can't explain it well.

Did you ever listen to that Sunn O))) stuff I posted? It does this a lot. But, you have to get past the droning...though, the droning is very interesting at times! It'll be like someone just cranked some odd little knob just offset from the right speaker, just a touch, in the middle of some other droning, and (if I were actually a synesthete) I'd imagine it like a pop of light from that spot just got brighter and brighter and then it was shut off. Then, another one, from the left this time, ooooooooooh boy, here it comes. It's sick. It's not "3D", though, lol.
No

This sorta stuff is fun and approachable.

https://tidal.com/browse/album/80271929

or Robelledo is quite fun too


https://tidal.com/browse/track/74837784

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381870

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381868

https://tidal.com/browse/track/74837780

Not nearly as crazy as some of the stuff I listen to. I explore deeply to find a genre, I've not heard before.
 

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Maybe one day I'll get to hear your system, maybe you'll get to hear mine, but...I think your "3D" is my "2D with SPL differences", lol. Is the SPL difference the 3rd dimension?

The messed up part, this really goes back to my dynamic range thread. I really think it's the "third dimension" that I now hear a lot that makes me perceive music that isn't very dynamic as being more dynamic. If, in the middle of a complex recording, all of a sudden, at a tiny little spot in a sound-stage (or even a large spot) some sound just pops up out of nowhere (especially if it is a high frequency sound) I "perceive it" as more dynamic. And that happens all the time.... I just can't explain it well.

Did you ever listen to that Sunn O))) stuff I posted? It does this a lot. But, you have to get past the droning...though, the droning is very interesting at times! It'll be like someone just cranked some odd little knob just offset from the right speaker, just a touch, in the middle of some other droning, and (if I were actually a synesthete) I'd imagine it like a pop of light from that spot just got brighter and brighter and then it was shut off. Then, another one, from the left this time, ooooooooooh boy, here it comes. It's sick. It's not "3D", though, lol.
I don't think it's sick. I find it quite fun. All we need are some quality shrooms and we can zoom around the planet and chase those little lights.
 

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Discussion Starter #231
What if there's no cone?
Well, electrostats still create sound through movement...just less of it. Higher speed camera, lol? Probably also need a better angle to see through the speaker, lol. Radar?
No

This sorta stuff is fun and approachable.

https://tidal.com/browse/album/80271929

or Robelledo is quite fun too

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381870

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381868

https://tidal.com/browse/track/74837780

Not nearly as crazy as some of the stuff I listen to. I explore deeply to find a genre, I've not heard before.
Have to check them out when I get home...which, I suppose I'll head to now.

'Night folks!
 

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the sales guy when playing the polks as I sat in the prepositioned listening chair...said no, these arent those speakers...get up walk around. I was like wtf...very different in a great way party/whole room/house speaker/sound. most chest slam I have ever heard at low volumes. was listening to old rock and roll.
Yep, this is what I was talking about for years … a way to control, but not quite eliminate cross talk for much better imaging.

This 'guy' makes my skin crawl, but this speaker, I will go take a listen to. It's doing something a little similar to the Beogram 90 https://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/speakers/beolab-90 with highly controlled directivity.

 

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I think it is much better to do intra-aural cross channel cancellation in the electrical domain [ex. "Carver Sonic Holography"] rather than the acoustical domain [Polk SDA/SDA Pro]. For one thing you have more control from the seated position, including an A/B comparison button.
 

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It's doing something a little similar to the Beogram 90
I've heard (and sold) a few varieties of these omnipolar speakers like those, including some discontinued Mirage and these DBX, several decades ago:

https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/787432-dbx-model-sfc1-soundfield-imaging-controller-or-the-model-1a-soundfield-controller.jpg
They have pluses and minuses. Sort of a mixed bag.

My overall impression was

+ added sweet spot area with even an ability to walk around the room a bit.
- less precision in the specific focus of the image localization, when seated at the ideal position
 
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I've heard (and sold) a few varieties of these omnipolar speakers like those, including some discontinued Mirage and these DBX, several decades ago:



https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/787432-dbx-model-sfc1-soundfield-imaging-controller-or-the-model-1a-soundfield-controller.jpg

They have pluses and minuses. Sort of a mixed bag.



My overall impression was



+ added sweet spot area with even an ability to walk around the room a bit.

- less precision in the specific focus of the image localization, when seated at the ideal position


i am using a pair of mirage MX bookshelves for my rear left and right. they work well because my seating ia right up against the wall.

i also have a full set of the mirage nanostats downstairs in a box. those were my old speakers....they worked well. may use them for the rec room in the basement somewhere down the line

mirage were pretty good for the entry person. way better than the over-priced bose


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Now now now ... don't confuse us with facts.:):)
If modern day DACs (non-red zone) differed in regards to their musicality in some regard there would be published listening studies in scholarly science journals testing/evaluating it. There aren't any.
 

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I've heard (and sold) a few varieties of these omnipolar speakers like those, including some discontinued Mirage and these DBX, several decades ago:

https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/787432-dbx-model-sfc1-soundfield-imaging-controller-or-the-model-1a-soundfield-controller.jpg
They have pluses and minuses. Sort of a mixed bag.

My overall impression was

+ added sweet spot area with even an ability to walk around the room a bit.
- less precision in the specific focus of the image localization, when seated at the ideal position
True as was the case with the Beogram. Really didn't do at all what I was expecting and what I've worked really a lifetime toward in soundstage and imaging.
 

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Discussion Starter #240 (Edited)
No

This sorta stuff is fun and approachable.

https://tidal.com/browse/album/80271929

or Robelledo is quite fun too

https://tidal.com/browse/track/74837784

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381870

https://tidal.com/browse/track/60381868

https://tidal.com/browse/track/74837780

Not nearly as crazy as some of the stuff I listen to. I explore deeply to find a genre, I've not heard before.
So, I don't know if you hear what I hear on those tracks...but...if you do, I totally get why you listen to them. And, if your chasing little lights comment is why...yeah, get it. I was going to listen to more, but had to post after the first one "Perpettum Mobile" off that Mikrovolt album. There was one sequence where it sounded like it was going around in an ellipse (now, I know it wasn't, but it was going left to right to left and its level was changing up and down, so it sounded like it was moving front to back). Anyway, if that's the kind of imaging you get, and love, and have chased...then, yeah, I totally follow!

Of course, this is just with my M2s and Crown amps. And some mental...modifications...? I need to be in the right mood to listen to my system with this level of...detail. The lights must be off, or near off, enough that I can close my eyes and really pay attention to nothing but the music. Once I get into the groove, it settles in and if the lights go on I can usually hear through it for a time, but it takes me out of the illusion. It's like watching a movie in the theater in the dark vs. in my living room. I can close my eyes hard enough to get there whenever, but...it comes easily in the right state of mind, if you're picking up what I'm putting down.

Anyway...I'll continue listening, but...if you like this for the..."3D" sonic canvas?...it paints, you really should check out the Sunn O))) stuff. This one starts off with a horse and steam engine that sounds like its slowly coming round a corner and then cranks into some guitar wailing. I get it, the issue with this stuff is it really has no melody, per se. But, they do some interesting things with sound. I think you may need quite some low end grunt to pull off some of it, because it often gives me some low end growling that occasionally rumbles my back just a touch. That said, it is one of those things I can train into and then let go on in the background, like now, and still hear the staging even with my PC in front of my. So, it's good ambient music to work to!

Oh, and as an aside, I always think I don't need or wouldn't miss lyrics until they're gone, lol. Then, sometimes, all of a sudden they come in...I love tracks like that. And sometimes, the lyrics are really weird and creepy!!!

So...maybe y'all sound check out some of these tracks and see if you guys pick up what we put down. If so, :cool:, hope you enjoyed the tracks. If not, maybe you got some work to do, or maybe our ears are just different? I'm not going to say it's "synergy" just yet, but...there's something to it and the room probably has a lot, but...who knows what else. All I know is, this is a first for me! In my many years, and...as I keep harping on...even with this same gear (minus the pre...oh crap!) in my last house. I'm going to go with room and setup long before pre, though...if someone wants to bring one to A/B, I'm down to try, though, haha! We will need to be able to access Tidal, though, and I use my pre. Any quasi-locals interested? @Gooddoc @craig john @Blackdevil77 My room is pretty basic, need a more comfy couch for sure, but...three people rotating on the couch would be fine...if anyone likes pool, a few at the table and chilling in the back.... Just need to dodge all my daughters' toys, lol...grrr! All it'll cost me is a shopping day for the wife and my mother, lol.


edit: holy crap, this track popped up and I will be darned if the drums don't sound pretty punchy given all the ambiance in the low end that's going on in the background. I'd bet it has no dynamic range....lol :angel:.
 
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