AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 50 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It's bad enough how much they crop it. Now I noticed what I thought was a speeding up. Turns out they speed it up a full 7.5 percent.


The test:


My computer has a tuner card. I used this tuner card to digitally record Seinfeld from Fox Chicago roughly 10 years ago (I archived the entire series). Then I found which episode was on TBS tonight. In the upper-right window is a live feed from the tuner card. The source is TBS's SD feed via Dish Network. The lower-right is video playback from the digital recording, also recorded from Dish Network in 2003. I fed the audio from both the live feed and the video clip as well as the video from the S-video out on my video card to an external DVD recorder, then uploaded the final result to youtube. After 202 seconds of playback, the TBS live feed had advanced a full 15 seconds over the recording. This amounts to nearly 2 minutes over the course of a full episode.


I lined up the windows as closely as possible so you can also see cropping. Between that and the extreme speed increase, TBS is butchering a classic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,549 Posts
Fairly typical of cable nets. Have you never seen a movie indicated as being "time-compressed"? If you watch Friends on Nick at Nite it can sometimes be like watching Alvin and the Chipmunks.


Example: http://www.visualdatainc.com/time_tailor.htm
Run times reduced up to 10%. All without deleting scenes or altering original content & virtually undetectable to the viewer


Yeah, as long as the viewer has never seen the original or just doesn't pay attention.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionOn  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23733218


Fairly typical of cable nets. Have you never seen a movie indicated as being "time-compressed"? If you watch Friends on Nick at Nite it can sometimes be like watching Alvin and the Chipmunks.


Example: http://www.visualdatainc.com/time_tailor.htm
Run times reduced up to 10%. All without deleting scenes or altering original content & virtually undetectable to the viewer


Yeah, as long as the viewer has never seen the original or just doesn't pay attention.

Friends on Nick at Nite is fast and the sounds are all a slightly but noticeably higher pitch because Nick sourced their content from the European PAL versions which run at 25 fps vs. the NTSC versions which run at 24 fps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts
Stations do this so they can cram in more and more commercials and make more money. They butcher the episode, slap screen clutter all over the screen, and saturate it with commercials just so they can make more money selling ads. If that isn't enough pay TV prices have soared to over $100 a month these days. I cut the cord 5 years ago because if this. Pay TV has been ruined by corporate greed.


TBS is no longer a Super station.


I have some old recordings of shows off of TV Land from the late 90s. Today's TV Land is a shell of its former self.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,747 Posts
The stations have a choice, either time compression, or content removal. Which would you prefer? They are not going to show whole thing at the original rate, because they "say" that they "need" the additional commercial time. I guess they feel that using compression, they don't need to cut out any content. I don't like either one, but that IS the reality. Even with pitch adjustment, itsuresoundslikepeoplearetalkingveryfast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23745821


The stations have a choice, either time compression, or content removal. Which would you prefer? They are not going to show whole thing at the original rate, because they "say" that they "need" the additional commercial time. I guess they feel that using compression, they don't need to cut out any content. I don't like either one, but that IS the reality. Even with pitch adjustment, itsuresoundslikepeoplearetalkingveryfast.

So... a broadcast channel that actually paid for the program can run it on free TV with however many commercials they aired, but a cable station that gets subscription money "needs" to run more commercials. Yeah right
. Now their programming is essentially worthless to me, because I simply won't watch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,610 Posts
Its not only pay tv channels that do this. OTA non network stations do the same thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,747 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof/0_100#post_23746042

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23745821


The stations have a choice, either time compression, or content removal. Which would you prefer? They are not going to show whole thing at the original rate, because they "say" that they "need" the additional commercial time. I guess they feel that using compression, they don't need to cut out any content. I don't like either one, but that IS the reality. Even with pitch adjustment, itsuresoundslikepeoplearetalkingveryfast.

So... a broadcast channel that actually paid for the program can run it on free TV with however many commercials they aired, but a cable station that gets subscription money "needs" to run more commercials. Yeah right
. Now their programming is essentially worthless to me, because I simply won't watch.

Look, a first run of Seinfeld was guaranteed enormous ratings, and the commercial time was worth solid gold. On any station showing syndicated reruns, the revenue for the commercial time is minimal. Even though the cost for the programming is lower, the economics have always been that the stations need to increase commercial time for the slot to be profitable. That's one reason Startrek was cut by almost ten minutes per show, even in the 70s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts
The primary driver of the ever rising cost of cable is NOT licensing fees. People the primary driver is GREED. Simply put the vast majority of subscribers are held hostage by a price gouging monopoly protected by layers of government "regulations" who's sole purpose is not to protect the consumer but to protect the monopoly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23746715


Look, a first run of Seinfeld was guaranteed enormous ratings, and the commercial time was worth solid gold. On any station showing syndicated reruns, the revenue for the commercial time is minimal. Even though the cost for the programming is lower, the economics have always been that the stations need to increase commercial time for the slot to be profitable. That's one reason Startrek was cut by almost ten minutes per show, even in the 70s.

Star Trek reruns in the 70's were on local OTA stations (I presume). If ad revenue is minimal, why bother trying to squeeze in an extra spot or two? TBS is getting an average of 60 cents per subscriber a month (TNT is double that), with just under 100 million subs. They ain't hurting for cash. Seinfeld has been off the air for 15 years now. How expensive is it to air an episode?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,123 Posts
It's cropped slightly at the top, but more than made up for by the extra video on the sides. You don't agree? Would you rather see 4:3 HD?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,123 Posts
Incentive for purchase of Seinfeld when it comes out in Blu-ray. Perhaps the Blu-Ray will have an option of either 4:3 or 16:9.


Most syndicated shows cut portions of the episode; e.g., The Dick Van Dyje Show. Apparently Seinfeld does not do this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23749058


Incentive for purchase of Seinfeld when it comes out in Blu-ray. Perhaps the Blu-Ray will have an option of either 4:3 or 16:9.


Most syndicated shows cut portions of the episode; e.g., The Dick Van Dyje Show. Apparently Seinfeld does not do this?

I think its both sped-up and cut.

The TBS airings were edited to reduce running time, cutting certain lines—even rearranging the position of the stand-up scenes—and showing the credits earlier during the last scenes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seinfeld


The cropping on the other hand, doesn't look too bad. About as much is gained on the sides as is lost at the top and bottom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23749910


What, a giant conglomerate can't make a buck? Why do you hate America?

Are these sentences intended to go together?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,747 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof/0_100#post_23749326


I think its both sped-up and cut.

The TBS airings were edited to reduce running time, cutting certain lines—even rearranging the position of the stand-up scenes—and showing the credits earlier during the last scenes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seinfeld


The cropping on the other hand, doesn't look too bad. About as much is gained on the sides as is lost at the top and bottom.

This has been happening one way or another since the existence of syndication. You are acting shocked. I would be shocked if they DIDN'T do something to increase advertising time. It's a fact of life. If you can't deal with it then buy the DVDs, it's your only other option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23746930


The primary driver of the ever rising cost of cable is NOT licensing fees. People the primary driver is GREED. Simply put the vast majority of subscribers are held hostage by a price gouging monopoly protected by layers of government "regulations" who's sole purpose is not to protect the consumer but to protect the monopoly.

Within the narrow scope of syndicated pprogramming this is neither greed nor a monopoly. It is pretty basic economics.


First, this isn't a monopoly. In fact the competitoin for top shelf syndicated programming is pretty fierce. USA, TNT, TBS, Comedy Central, FX, Nickelodean, TV Land and more compete to grab the best programs. At the same time, network TV is producing fewer and fewer comedies that become widespread hits. This discussion is specifically about "Seinfeld" which has been off the air for 15 years. Not every show that is eligible for syndication becomes a hit in that arena.


So, we have tremendous competition and a limited supply of programs. The demand remains high however, as reflected in the ratings for these shows and number of cable/satellite/fiber subscribers that haven't cut the cord. This drives the cost of obtaining the hit shows higher and higher. As a business, the cable channels have both a right and obligation to pursue a return on this investment. And they generate that revenue through commercial ads and subscriber fees. That's why they have to jam in as many commercials as they can and use graphics that clutter the screen to promote their upcoming shows. This is just business. One person's greed is another's reasonable profit.


Jedi,I know from previous posts you are a big fan of Me TV. I am as well. When I see Emergency! on I will stop watch if just for a few minutes and relive a show I loved as a child. But shows like that do not draw a broad audience and thus are very inexpensive which allows Me TV to show for free over the air. Most people under 35 have never heard of Emergency! or Kojak.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23750482


This has been happening one way or another since the existence of syndication. You are acting shocked. I would be shocked if they DIDN'T do something to increase advertising time. It's a fact of life. If you can't deal with it then buy the DVDs, it's your only other option.

Shocked? No not at all, and reading through my previous posts I'm not sure where you determined that. Fed up and a bit incredulous that anyone watches a program that has been sped up until the actors sound like chipmunks? Yes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,630 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by apk8  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23751533


Within the narrow scope of syndicated pprogramming this is neither greed nor a monopoly. It is pretty basic economics.


First, this isn't a monopoly. In fact the competitoin for top shelf syndicated programming is pretty fierce. USA, TNT, TBS, Comedy Central, FX, Nickelodean, TV Land and more compete to grab the best programs. At the same time, network TV is producing fewer and fewer comedies that become widespread hits. This discussion is specifically about "Seinfeld" which has been off the air for 15 years. Not every show that is eligible for syndication becomes a hit in that arena.


So, we have tremendous competition and a limited supply of programs. The demand remains high however, as reflected in the ratings for these shows and number of cable/satellite/fiber subscribers that haven't cut the cord. This drives the cost of obtaining the hit shows higher and higher. As a business, the cable channels have both a right and obligation to pursue a return on this investment. And they generate that revenue through commercial ads and subscriber fees. That's why they have to jam in as many commercials as they can and use graphics that clutter the screen to promote their upcoming shows. This is just business. One person's greed is another's reasonable profit.

It is a monopoly because the pay TV companies are charging the same high prices for the same bundle of channels. The price of pay TV has more than doubled over the last 10 years. It hasn't been regulated like it needs to be.


There are 60 years of programming to choose from. There are great shows that haven't been on TV in years. Why don't these channels show some of them instead of all the cheap made reality crap they show. The customer is paying a lot more and getting a lot less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,947 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul  /t/1490528/tbs-speeds-up-seinfeld-a-full-7-5-percent-here-is-the-proof#post_23752226


Shocked? No not at all, and reading through my previous posts I'm not sure where you determined that. Fed up and a bit incredulous that anyone watches a program that has been sped up until the actors sound like chipmunks? Yes.

Though the good time compression algorithms make sure the pitch of sped-up audio doesn't change - so whilst the dialogue is faster (which can ruin comic timing) - the voices don't go up in pitch.


In Europe, we have got very used to US movies and scripted drama and comedy series being played 4% faster as 24fps film/film-look video content is replayed at 25fps (to avoid having to do frame interpolation etc.), so for us it is sometimes a bit of a shock to see the US originals at normal speed (common now 24p Blu-rays are available) Most conversions these days don't alter the pitch, just the speed, but that isn't always the case.


ISTR that at least one comedy writer/performer doesn't allow the 24/25 conversion and instead mandates frame-interpolation conversion (which avoids the speed change), because they think that the change in pauses kills the comic timing. Can't remember who it is now...
 
1 - 20 of 50 Posts
Top