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You can't compare these two antennas unless you can get the preamp gains to be the same. It's comparing apples to oranges. Televes has the nasty habit of adding the antenna gain to the preamp gain and then claiming these huge gain numbers for their antennas. This is just marketing and no one else I know of does this. The only thing that really counts is Noise Margin. You need to figure out a way to measure Noise Margin. Simply looking at the amplitude differences on the spectrum analyzer doesn't tell you anything when the preamps have different gains.
If the integrated amplifier is the issue, why not compare both antennas in passive mode (raw gain)? Just remove the power from the DatBoss LR so you have an apples-to-apples comparison. Although the heart of any Televes amplified antenna is its integrated amplifier. It rules!!

The 163XG is 15.5 feet
Holy cow! Cool! :cool:
 

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Although the heart of any Televes amplified antenna is its integrated amplifier. It rules!!
The integrated amplifier helps avoid signal loss and it automatically adjusts the gain to prevent overload issues. I have one of the Televes DAT Boss antennas and they work very well pulling in weak signals. I am not familiar with all the stats and figures debated here, but the built in amp is a very nice feature and works very well.
 

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One thing that amazes me is people buying these Televes amplified antennas who don't use the power source and just throw it somewhere in the garage! What is the point on expending the extra money for that? As I wrote before, the heart of a Televes amplified antenna is its integrated amplifier.It is like a little computer for AGC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
One thing that amazes me is people buying these Televes amplified antennas who don't use the power source and just throw it somewhere in the garage! What is the point on expending the extra money for that? As I wrote before, the heart of a Televes amplified antenna is its integrated amplifier.It is like a little computer for AGC.
I agree 100% !! Who in the hell uses a pre amp and doesn't plug it in?
 

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I bought the DAT Box Mix LR. Better than any antenna I have used. Not using the preamp already had the new channel master Hi Lo Gain in place so just used it. No more drop outs in wind or rain.
If I might suggest. Even though the DAT preamp allows pass through you are getting a certain amount of loss in this configuration.
You may want switch to the DAT PSU and preamp at some point.
 

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Dear Calaveras, this is Javier Ruano, GM with Televes USA. I’ve asked you before both in public and privately through this forum, and I’ll do it again here, do you have personal experience with any Televes antenna products? I’ve read your posts in this forum and others with interest over the years. You seem pretty well set in your opinions about our antennas, seemingly traceable back to incomplete and quite misinformed articles published many, many years ago, but it seems to me, without having first hand knowledge of Televes products. In case you have not had the opportunity and are just putting out opinions based on your interpretation or what you've read in the internet, I'd be happy to provide you with some samples for your perusal. Please, feel free to PM with an address.

Just for context, Televes is a company that has been involved with terrestrial television ever since its foundation in the 1950s. Nowadays we are a multinational covering many different verticals but deeply involved in anything that has to do with DTT (we are, after all, founding members of DVB). From the the design, development and manufacturing of broadcasting transmitters and SFN gap- fillers OEM'd by some of the main brand names in the industry, all the way to professional monitoring and test and measurement equipment, and everything else in between, from aerials and digital processing headends to distribution equipment all the way to the very last outlet in the home. To this day, and as opposed to most of our competitors in the antenna space in the US, we at Televes design, develop, and manufacture all our products in our state-of-the-art facilities located in the Northwest of Spain. When it comes to antennas we roll our elements from raw aluminum, inject our clamps and electronics shielding out of zamak, inject our own plastic parts out of only top performing ABS plastic, and use stainless steel hardware throughout. We make our own printed circuit boards, ensuring the reliability needed to put them inside a dipole on an aerial, all of this with quality assurance and traceability throughout the manufacturing process (for your interest, ISO 9001 and 14001 certifications can be found on the website). All of this manufactured in a 100% robotized Industry 4.0 Manufacturing process paradigm ensuring the most stringent quality control procedures.

We of course have our own certification labs where not only we can approve CE and UL marks, but more importantly subject all our antenna products to extensive EM testing, saltwater and UV resistance, temperature and vibration shock, etc., simulating decades of on the field life for any new products long before they ever reach the market. We actually certify some competitors in these very labs.

The result of this painstaking process are antennas built to quality standards that far exceed what you find in other brand names sourcing their products mostly from the far east these days, or otherwise. I trust you would surely recognize this should you ever be able to experience our products in person.

We currently have subsidiaries in 18 countries, our products are otherwise distributed and sold in over a hundred countries worldwide, and we are, by all accounts, one of the worldwide leading technology companies when it comes to DTT solutions. With regards to the US we've had an office in Denver since the late 90s, but truth be told we have never had a focus on terrestrial television here until fairly recently with the renewed interest in OTA over the last few years. Admittedly our design philosophy is quite different from what you are used to seeing and experience in the US market, flooded with very dated designs and OEM branded far East originated product frequently more concerned with profit margins, marketing and presentation than with quality and performance. As I said, we've watched opinions such as yours in forums from a distance an in amusement for a while, but we believe it's come a time to clarify who we are and what we are all about. I do apologize for this long and winded presentation of who we are as a company, but trust it is pertaining to put these discussions in its adequate context. We are no newcomer to the space, trust me on this.

For many, many years now our antennas have included preamplifiers built in right at the dipole, you will no doubt surely agree with me that this is the optimal location to apply amplification in a signal acquisition system, if amplification is going to be applied. This is rarely seen, and there is a clear business reason for it, it's not cheap to do it right. Sturdy shielding, temp resisting PCBs and quality componentry need to be used throughout. It's far easier to throw a preamp somewhere further down the line, or leave that worry to the customer. Our latest generation of antenna products incorporate what in the marketing literature is known as TForce, our newest iteration of antena pre-amplifiers that automatically adjust their gain to adapt for the conditions of the signal received by the antenna, aiming to deliver an optimum output level for distribution at all times, despite the changes in receiving conditions.

For this the Televes Corporation has designed and manufactures proprietary MMIC chipsets that allow to reach performance parameters not achievable with regular discrete component designs. Some of the key design elements and performance parameters of these solutions are proprietary and we are not at the liberty to share just anywhere, but believe me we have no "nasty habits" or engage in unfounded marketing gimmickry. Quite honestly we have struggled for decades with the US antenna manufacturers tradition of listing the antennas with "miles" ratings. We just develop solutions aimed at covering a wide variety of scenarios, subject to constant improvement and which prove their worth time and time again all over the world.

One should not think of Televes antenna products in terms of a traditional antenna plus a pre-amplifier. From the ground up our antennas and electronics are designed hand in hand to complement each other and provide peak performance, as a system. Of course our hardware antenna designs are fairly unique as well, many times misunderstood and although they've been copied ad nauseam over the years, remain top performing, compact, and imitated time and time again.

Now, going back to your above post if I may, I will be the first one to agree that amplitude differences in a spectrum analyzer plot are not what we should base our opinions on. I have to assume the OP customer posting this review here does not have access to a proper meter that can provide MER per carrier, which is what we would all like to see.

Actually sometimes when such graphs are brought up our antenna performance is often misinterpreted!. Please, allow me to elaborate. I am sure you'll concur with me than in a system comprised by a signal acquisition antenna and an amplifier, the best system is not necessarily that which has the highest gain. The best system will be the one that is able to deliver a larger number of carriers with the best carrier to noise ratio. Of course we have to be mindful that we are using the right tools so the measurement is not altered by noise floor of the measurement equipment itself, as it quite often happens. In a Televes TForce system the gain is variable and it is adjusted automatically. Very seldom the amplifier, which features a vast dynamic range, is applying maximum gain, so when compared to a preamp with fixed gain it will frequently show a lower amplitude, which is not indicative of a worse performance, quite the contrary. Furthermore an automatically self adjusting system such as this provides far greater flexibility for our antenna solutions to adapt to a much wider range of applications and changing circumstances in a particular install. Of course this is not just any AGC, as any adjustments due to energy entering the band for a number of reasons, need to be done carefully as to not induce decoding artifacts or locking issues in the tuning device. All of this is carefully taken into account in the TForce system. The input signal received by the antenna is not as relevant, as the system will adapt and the installation will continue to perform within quality parameters. As a manufacturer of antennas and provider of solutions this is an important parameter, the number of different scenarios where our different antenna models perform equally or better than competing products. Yet another factor, frequently overseen, is the physical volume occupied by the antenna solution. From a design perspective, as any RF engineer can realize, it really has to be a poor design if an antenna that's far larger still underperforms when compared to one of ours, yet it happens time and time again. With all of the above in mind, we trust we provide very flexible, adaptable, and top performing solutions, with a build quality that quite honestly exceeds what can be found in the market nowadays.

You are of course entitled to your opinion sir, but I would like for it to be educated and based on actual user experience. The offer stands if you wish to test any of our products. I trust you will be pleasantly surprised. After all one would think that a company that develops broadcasting exciters, transmitters, and spectrum analyzers, should know how to design and manufacture a decent enough over the air antenna.

Sincerely
Very good response! Have the Winegard Droopy 8200 w/29db preamp. Am 90+ miles west of Cleveland, OH. Get most stations clearly, though UNRELIABLY. Purchased 481381 DATBOSS LR. SURPRISED that, on instruction sheet, the "color coded pie", was applied to each frequency set---2-6, 7-13, 14-51. THAT'S DETAILED! Unfortunately, 2-6 reception dropped to "local range" on that chart!! Albeit with 24db. Was reason for purchase!! Completing assembly, hoping for the best.
 

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Who in the hell uses a pre amp and doesn't plug it in?
Someone who is using their battery operated TV during a power failure.
Portable LCD TVs with ATSC tuners

Audiovox PLV16081 8-inch TV2.jpg


Battery Pack for TVs2.jpg


The current battery operated TVs use a Lithium-Ion battery that doesn't give you more than 90 minutes on a charge. Charging a battery during a power failure isn't easily done.

The Televes DAT BOSS Mix LR allows you to easily bypass the preamp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Someone who is using their battery operated TV during a power failure.
Portable LCD TVs with ATSC tuners

View attachment 3038964

View attachment 3038952

The current battery operated TVs use a Lithium-Ion battery that doesn't give you more than 90 minutes on a charge. Charging a battery during a power failure isn't easily done.

The Televes DAT BOSS Mix LR allows you to easily bypass the preamp.
Good answer Rabbit. I'm surprised I don't have a battery-powered TV. 😃
 

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Man, don't you just hate these guys that have these massive antenna setups??? :mad: ;)
 

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Yea, me too. I have a DAT75 on top of my tower but the wind got the reflector and broke it off. I have been looking for a replacement, but at my age, climbing a 70' tower is a once a year event. The DAT75 was by far the best antenna I have owned, paired it with a channel master 7777. Looking hard at this new one with automatic pre-amp, since I live in the city with lots of multipath. Since the cut the UHF band down so much, Ive been waiting for antennas that dont waste all the directors on channel 82 or 51 now that 36 is the highest channel used.
 

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Yea, me too. I have a DAT75 on top of my tower but the wind got the reflector and broke it off. I have been looking for a replacement, but at my age, climbing a 70' tower is a once a year event. The DAT75 was by far the best antenna I have owned, paired it with a channel master 7777. Looking hard at this new one with automatic pre-amp, since I live in the city with lots of multipath. Since the cut the UHF band down so much, Ive been waiting for antennas that dont waste all the directors on channel 82 or 51 now that 36 is the highest channel used.
I just replaced my DB8e with the DAT BOSS LR with impressive results. The DB8e is a great antenna and probably works just fine for most but the Televes works best for my situation so far not to mention is lighter. I have strong RF 28 7 miles from me and can receive RF 29 60 miles from me most of the time and the antenna is pointing right through RF 28. The DB8e with the Juice preamp couldn’t even sniff RF 29. I did try the new Televes single and dual preamps with the DB8e and both preamps blew the Juice away in my situation but I did want to try the DAT BOSS LR with its integrated preamp and so far I’m impressed. Most nights I get stations 80-130 miles away even with the strong RF 28 close to me. Of course some of those come and go but I receive my locals and two other markets solidly and they are 60 and 80 miles away. The stations that are more distant is icing on the cake!
3118135
 

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I see there are several models with the same name on ebay and Amazon. What model number am I looking for? Looks like new ones have a VHF hi element I dont see on yours.
 
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Discussion Starter · #39 · (Edited)
So I got a little bored. I got the Televes DAT BOSS LR with VHF High and VHF low. More on that later.

I decided to hack my remaining two DAT BOSS LRs. This was never sanctioned by Televes and I couldn't get any technical advice so I just did it on my own. I took the two antennas and I had to make sleeves to get the directors to be the same distance.

It was kind of painful to disassemble two perfectly good antennas! But a hack is a hack!
3118188



It was a father-son project. My boy learned how to use a level, hacksaw, Drilling and fitting the directors in their new holes:
3118191


I'm 6ft tall. I don't remember if I measured it but I'm estimating 14 feet long. I'm calling it The DAT BOSS XLR. Extra long range.
3118195



Here you can see size comparison to the 163XG which is 15.5 feet long:
3118196



I have other spectrograms yeah, but this one was most convenient to find on my phone:
3118197
 

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So I got a little bored. I got the Televes DAT BOSS LR with VHF High and VHF low. More on that later.

I decided to hack my remaining two DAT BOSS LRs. This was never sanctioned by Televes and I couldn't get any technical advice so I just did it on my own. I took the two antennas and I had to make sleeves to get the directors to be the same distance.

It was kind of painful to disassemble two perfectly good antennas! But a hack is a hack!
View attachment 3118188


It was a father-son project. My boy learned how to use a level, hacksaw, Drilling and fitting the directors in their new holes:
View attachment 3118191

I'm 6ft tall. I don't remember if I measured it but I'm estimating 14 feet long.
View attachment 3118195


Here you can see size comparison to the 163 x g which is 15.5 feet long:
View attachment 3118196


I have other spectrograms yeah, but this one was most convenient to find on my phone:
View attachment 3118197
That is totally awesome for sure Chi and I would love to put some height to that! Really cool the young man was involved! It was actually you and some other posters over time that convinced me to try the LR. I’ve been creeping this forum for a long and really enjoyed some of the AVS superstars with their experiments, data, opinions, etc so I recently joined. I also liked the Televes Reps coming on and defending their product whether one agreed or disagreed with them. It made for some interesting reads. The 91xg and DB8e are some of my favorite long range antennas but the LR was better for my situation so far. Btw I hated to read about your recent rooftop disaster. PM me if you need a couple new ones to help with replacements. I have a few spares.
 
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