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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There's a very interesting update at the Newform speakers site:

http://www.newformresearch.com/whats-newfr.htm


Look in the August 2003 update.


Basically they are recommending bi-amping their speakers using a Behringer digital crossover... and a Panasonic XR45 receiver, which costs all of $300.


It's a new digital receiver, and according to John Meyer, is up there with some of the best amps around.


Interesting, no?



Steve
 

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I wouldn't think it'd be a Krell killer because if I'm gonna spend that much on an amp there's no way I'm buying a $300 Panasonic I don't care how good it is even if it was handmade by God (well, maybe then I'd look into it) I'd still pass. I can't associate passing on a Krell amp for some $300 mass market amp. The article is alittle unbelievable for me but we'll see I wouldn't get all excited just yet.


Daniel Smith
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DanielSmi
I don't care how good it is...I'd still pass.
Why? You're not going to tell me a badge on the faceplate is more important than the quality of amp?


Sanjay
 

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Come on now!


Jim
 

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Very interesting article. Seriously, read it before posting.


The solution of the digital amp + x-over is a very good one and a total bargain.


Whether it truly will eclipse a Krell and a high-end x-over is another matter. Probably not, but for a fraction of the price, it probably comes darn close.


I run pre-digital amps, the Sunfire's, and a speaker processor, the DBX DriveRack 260 feeding my Martin Logan Monolith's and the sound and resolution is awesome.


The only better solution would cost me $20,000. That would be a TacT Millennium II for the panels an S2150 for the woofers and an RCS 2.2x for EQ and crossover.


Note the Millennium II is the 'other' all digital amp, and when combined with an RCS, it provides fully digital signal paths.

However, the price: $10,000 sort of keeps it exclusive.


But these digital amps, room EQ and multi-way X-overs technologies are going to hit the sub $5K and maybe even the sub $2K price ranges rather quickly.
 

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I've never been fortunate enough to own any Krell gear :( - but, saying that something from Panasonic is a "Krell Killer" might be going a bit far. But, it's good that some of the other "lower end" pieces are making some decent sound to attempt to compete at the better gear that's out there.


However, the statement "Krell Killer" is kind of like calling a Yugo a Aston Martin "Killer" -- it ain't gonna happen. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
In a way it is here now. Assume that the designer of the Newform speakers isn't deaf.


Let's say you wanted a very simple CD system, with room EQ, for your full range speakers.


The CD player of your choice with a digital out to the Behringer DEQ2496 then digital out to this little Panasonic.


That's a full digital path to the speaker for under $1K, with automatic room EQ, plus a 10 band parametric EQ, plus RTA etc etc.


Not bad.


I also use a dbx Driverack 260. Let's imagine it had digital ins and outs.


If I bought a used Meridian 565 I would have a digital outs for all my sources including DD/DTS, a three way digital crossover/EQ, and with 3 x Panasonics a fully digital six channel amp for about $2500.


It's really just a matter of someone putting the right connections on the boxes. The technology is there.


I can't wait.


Cheers


Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by wje
I've never been fortunate enough to own any Krell gear :( - but, saying that something from Panasonic is a "Krell Killer" might be going a bit far. But, it's good that some of the other "lower end" pieces are making some decent sound to attempt to compete at the better gear that's out there.


However, the statement "Krell Killer" is kind of like calling a Yugo a Aston Martin "Killer" -- it ain't gonna happen. :)
I have owned Krell equipment, but I am perfectly prepared to be open minded about new technology such as digital amps.


Check out these threads:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4782


http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=2297



They are long, but the first is summarizing a view held by more than one person that a $750 Carver Pro digital amp is the best they've heard bar none.


The second is basically saying that the new Sony digital receivers and digital combo SACD/DVD/receivers are scarily close to that.


Unfortunately I need a six channel amp for my mains or I'd give it a try.



Cheers


Steve
 

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I believe I said something about amplifiers being the next phase of the digital revolution ;-)

By golly, I did


Having heard digital solutions from Sharp, Bel Canto and Tact I'm convinced that it's only a matter of time before (A) I own one and (B) they are the dominant amplifier technology.


I haven't heard this Panny amp, but I'm sure it can do a more than credible job if engineered well. "Krell killer" OTOH, is in the ear of the beholder.


Regards,
 

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Interesting article.


I have some questions for the more-learned. Please indulge my lack of knowledge.


Am I correct in assuming that the active crossover replaces the passive

xo in the speaker cabinet?


If so, shouldn't this also lower the cost of speakers as well since

designing the xo is one of the major costs in a speaker?


In the described system, the speakers make up 2/3s of the cost.


Couldn't a DIYer simply build the desired design minus the xo

and dial-in the crossover specs?


It seems to me that the one cost saving left out here is in the

speaker side.

Why?


TIA
 

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Had Krell KSA-150 and can tell you there were many amps from Audio Research, Musical Fidelity, Pioneer, Yamaha. Sound is personal perception, but bigger badges worth more money necessarily doesnt mean better sound.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by JonFo

[

I run pre-digital amps, the Sunfire's, and a speaker processor, the DBX DriveRack 260 feeding my Martin Logan Monolith's and the sound and resolution is awesome.


[/b]
I'm a musician and I find it interesting that you are using equipment that was primarily designed for sound reinforcement in live performances. Has any considered using PA amps in a HT application? Also, it seems funny that XLR are new to receivers. Pretty much all the interconnects that I use when I play live is all XLR. Just my $.02. I just found it interesting.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Dodds
I have owned Krell equipment, but I am perfectly prepared to be open minded about new technology such as digital amps.


Check out these threads:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4782


http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=2297



They are long, but the first is summarizing a view held by more than one person that a $750 Carver Pro digital amp is the best they've heard bar none.


The second is basically saying that the new Sony digital receivers and digital combo SACD/DVD/receivers are scarily close to that.


Unfortunately I need a six channel amp for my mains or I'd give it a try.



Cheers


Steve
Steve, Thanks for the additional links. I look forward to reading the material. Oh, I'm very open to new products, too. It just seems that out of the box, the Panasonic wasn't much until the reviewer was able to get the system into a mode where the surround sound wasn't playing, etc. However, it was a good article.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by WCunha
I'm a musician and I find it interesting that you are using equipment that was primarily designed for sound reinforcement in live performances. Has any considered using PA amps in a HT application? Also, it seems funny that XLR are new to receivers. Pretty much all the interconnects that I use when I play live is all XLR. Just my $.02. I just found it interesting.
Well, Steve mentioned the Carver pro amp that some have rated highly. A common use for pro-amps in 'consumer' systems is subwoofer amplification, given that high-frequency noise specs are less of a requirement than brute power for low frequencies.


One item that everyone should note is that mating un-balanced consumer gear with balanced pro-audio gear is to pay attention to the appropriate impedance match and isolation. When I first put in my DriveRack 260, the hum and buzz was a distraction (although previous pro-Crossovers did not suffer this problem in my system).

The fix was to purchase a Jensen Transformers ISO Max RM2-2RX RCA to XLR balanced isolation/matching transformer. Absolutely cleaned up the issue, highly recommended.


Here is more info on connecting un-balanced to balanced gear:
http://www.rane.com/note110.html


Many times when people try a pro-gear piece in their audio rig, they complain about noise or hum and blame the quality of the pro-gear. However, the real culprit is inappropriate matching and a Jensen transformer will fix that pronto. Don't knock a piece till you've mated them correctly.


Of course, all this analog BS with impedance's etc. goes away with an all digital path between pre-amp, processor and digital amp. Although I'm sure new challenges will surface there :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Milt,


That's exactly what I have done. I have three way active speakers that I triamp. There is nothing between the amps and the drivers.


The crossover comes between the preamp and the power amps.


Of course, the money you save on normal passive crossovers you pay for with the active crossover, but it is worth it.


Here's what they guy who invented one of the most popular crossovers says:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q40


I believe Jonfo pulled the passive crossovers from his Martin Logans to create much the same effect.


But yes, we still await the connection puzzle... an all the way Firewire would be great - source-prepro-eq-crossover-amp. Just one cable in between each.


Ahh, bliss.


Cheers


Steve
 

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Well, if I don't turn up any ugly dirt on the XR-45 in the next day or two, I may end up volunteering to be a guinea pig on this.

I've got a homebrew multichannel DSP xover speaker project on the go, and so I need lots of amp channels. Not all are what I'd call 'critical', though, so I figure that even if the XR45 is only 'ok', I can still use it as a plain 4 or 5 channel amp, so the risk is minimal.


After digging some info up on diyaudio among other places, I'm led to believe that there is some great potential in this unit, although I strongly suspect that it'll be greatly constrained by the analog front end/conversion. If 'we' can come up with a way to run I2S directly into the XR45 - either from say a Behringer or an I2S native soundcard (ie Envy24-based cards)- this could be a true giant-killer.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Dodds



I believe Jonfo pulled the passive crossovers from his Martin Logans to create much the same effect.

Yep, sure did. And here is a write up and a diagram of my bass management and speaker crossover in my rig:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jonfoulke...anagement.html


Only change to this is that there is now an additional Sunfire CG driving the side speakers. Still need to get another DriveRack and do the crossover removal surgery on the Sequels to bi-amp them.
 

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I had the XR25 (same amp section as the XR45). I found it to lack detail, and distortion seemed high. You could get this unit at Best Buy.


Definitely not a well executed digital amp, IMHO.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by JonFo
One item that everyone should note is that mating un-balanced consumer gear with balanced pro-audio gear is to pay attention to the appropriate impedance match and isolation. When I first put in my DriveRack 260, the hum and buzz was a distraction (although previous pro-Crossovers did not suffer this problem in my system).

The fix was to purchase a Jensen Transformers ISO Max RM2-2RX RCA to XLR balanced isolation/matching transformer. Absolutely cleaned up the issue, highly recommended.



Many times when people try a pro-gear piece in their audio rig, they complain about noise or hum and blame the quality of the pro-gear. However, the real culprit is inappropriate matching and a Jensen transformer will fix that pronto. Don't knock a piece till you've mated them correctly.
I'm glad you mentioned the impeadance issue. I forgot completely about an unbalanced source witn an unbalanced source. That is very important. If you buy quality pro gear you will not have any problems if thay are mated correctly.
 

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I have never heard of impedance causing hum - I think the problem is the difference in ground potential between the balanced and unbalanced circuitry that causes the hum, and an isolation (balanced) transformer is a well known cure for that. The Carver ZR1000/1600 has ground lift switches to help reduce ground-induced hum.


Dsmith
 
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