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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is 4K support a priority in your next receiver purchase?



Well, I am afraid that 4K format support nowadays is a joke, if not a lie, from all the AVR brands. Why?


Well, no one can see real 4K/60Hz video from any source decoded outside the TV itself because there is no standard way to deliver uncompressed video at enough framerate to the display. The only way to deliver 4K content to a TV is by sending the compressed stream to a player inside the TV, it will generate the video signal and then the internal data bus of the TV can deliver the high bandwith signal to the screen.


The limitation is imposed by the Current HDMI 1.4 specification. All the devices and high speed cables support up to 3840x2160 24Hz/25Hz/30Hz and only 4096x2160 24Hz . Not even 30Hz in full 4K. So we will have to wait for a new standard before thinking in delivering uncompressed video signal from one appliance to another with an external cable.


The current "4K" standard is not just a new screen resolution. The standard goes also up to 120Hz in framerate. It is funny to read when all the brands say that their receivers support 4K. Yes 4K but at only 24Hz....


When this standard had come into the home systems the standard won't be 24Hz for sure. With HDMI 1.5 (or most probably 2.0 or whatever number) 60Hz is going to be the standard and 120Hz will be the future HQ/3D. So be aware of that supposed 4K upscaling, or even pass through, in your favourite receiver. No receiver at this moment will support the real future 4K standard.


It is really easy to sell something that can not be tested and it is based in just misinformation from all the brands. As users we must be aware, and against, of these dark practices.


Now I ask the same question I did at the beginning of this post:

Is 4K support a priority in your next receiver purchase?


Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23094560


Stand-by...

HDMI 1.5 standards are due to be released shortly...


Just my $0.02.... 👍😉

Yes, the next HDMI standard must be close in time. Anyway no current receiver, all of them HDMI 1.4, is going to be forward compatible with the next standard. The point is that no current receiver is going to be 4K compatible even dough they say they are. Many people are taking into account the advertised 4K upscaling or 4K pass through features of some new receivers, taking them as futureproof features. It is just misleading marketing. Any current 2013 receiver MUST be replaced in order to have a full 4K ready system.


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Which is exactly why I just bought a Pioneer SC-1222-K for $479 from Newegg.....


I made a comment about this issue in another thread already. I was looking at the Denon 3313CI and a few other AVR's that advertise 4K support. I really wanted a receiver that is as future proof as possible and 4K was on my list of possible things. However, ALL current AVR's only support up to 4K 24hz & 30hz (25hz PAL?) due to the HDMI 1.4(a) spec limits. As the poster above said, the 4K standard will also include 60 & 120hz.


I'll probably get a 4K set once they are available and more affordable so, I figured since I'll be forced to buy a new 4K full feature compatible receiver when the time comes, I may as well save some cash now and get a good class D amp receiver (1080P only) for a great price and save my money for the next inevitable purchase.......


habe
 

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Nothing in AV can be future proof, you have to be naïve or ignorant to believe that.


It's not the first time a CE device doesn't do everything listed in the spec. Is that a lie?


Is it a big fat lie when DVD players sold in the US/Can cannot play 'PAL' 576i50 DVD then, or Blu-ray players not playing PAL DVDs, 1080i50 Blu-ray discs or decode dts-HD MA fully, even these are part of the spec? Or HDTVs that are only 720p or 768p, or TVs that won't display 50i signals or multiples of 24Hz? In the ROW the players and TVs are pretty all dual standard.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okibcn  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23094155


The limitation is imposed by the Current HDMI 1.4 specification.

Just so you know: the following is quoted from Wikipedia...
Quote:
Version 2.0


The HDMI Forum is working on the HDMI 2.0 specification.In a 2012 CES press release HDMI Licensing, LLC stated that the expected release date for the next version of HDMI was the second half of 2012 and that important improvements needed for HDMI include increased bandwidth to allow for higher resolutions and broader video timing support. Longer term goals for HDMI include better support for mobile devices and improved control functions. On January 8, 2013, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that the next HDMI version is being worked on by the 83 members of the HDMI Forum and that it is expected to be released in the first half of 2013.


Based on HDMI Forum meetings it is expected that HDMI 2.0 will increase the maximum TMDS per channel throughput from 3.4 Gbit/s to 6 Gbit/s which would allow a maximum total TMDS throughput of 18 Gbit/s. This will allow HDMI 2.0 to support 4K resolution at 60 frames per second (fps). Other features that are expected for HDMI 2.0 include support for 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, support for 25 fps 3D formats, improved 3D capability, support for more than 8 channels of audio, support for the HE-AAC and DRA audio standards, dynamic auto lip-sync, and additional CEC functions.
 

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This is really interesting... I'm in the market for a new receiver right now as my Onkyo 3007 just got plauged by the HDMI board failure issue and they won't cover my out of warranty unit. So what do I do? Do I buy a Pioneer 1222-k off Newegg only to have to replace it in a few months when HDMI 2.0 is realeased or do I go receiver-less for the next few months and wait?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by habe  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097326


Which is exactly why I just bought a Pioneer SC-1222-K for $479 from Newegg.....


I made a comment about this issue in another thread already. I was looking at the Denon 3313CI and a few other AVR's that advertise 4K support. I really wanted a receiver that is as future proof as possible and 4K was on my list of possible things. However, ALL current AVR's only support up to 4K 24hz & 30hz (25hz PAL?) due to the HDMI 1.4(a) spec limits. As the poster above said, the 4K standard will also include 60 & 120hz.


I'll probably get a 4K set once they are available and more affordable so, I figured since I'll be forced to buy a new 4K full feature compatible receiver when the time comes, I may as well save some cash now and get a good class D amp receiver (1080P only) for a great price and save my money for the next inevitable purchase.......


habe

I just checked Newegg and the price is $549, did it go up since you bought it?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097554


Nothing in AV can be future proof, you have to be naïve or ignorant to believe that.


It's not the first time a CE device doesn't do everything listed in the spec. Is that a lie?


Is it a big fat lie when DVD players sold in the US/Can cannot play 'PAL' 576i50 DVD then, or Blu-ray players not playing PAL DVDs, 1080i50 Blu-ray discs or decode dts-HD MA fully, even these are part of the spec? Or HDTVs that are only 720p or 768p, or TVs that won't display 50i signals or multiples of 24Hz? In the ROW the players and TVs are pretty all dual standard.

The 800lb pink gorilla of a difference though is that those devices (the vast majority that I've seen, anyway) are not marketed/advertised/presented/however-you-want-to-phrase-it to do so (yep, I think the current avrs are presented to be compatible with 4k media including future TELEVISION BROADCASTS). I'm not really to argue about it...I believe most reasonable people can make the distinction.


For me, just another reason to wait for this fall's PREPROS/AVRs...although I'm a bit timid that they'll have it/be doing it right in 5 months as the first wave are already being announced without any new HDMI spec.


James
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097554


Nothing in AV can be future proof, you have to be naïve or ignorant to believe that.

Nope, not ignorant or naive.


I fully understand that nothing in any electronics purchase is ever future proof. My decision was all about the pocket book. I was just about to pull the trigger on a Denon 3313Ci for $900. Since I don't have a 4K set right now, I bought a Pioneer SC-1222-K for $479 which was about half of what I intended on spending. I may have to buy a 4K receiver with the next HDMI standard in a year or so as to get better/full 4K compatibility but, I saved close to $500 in the immediate on a AVR that will do what I need for now.


If the Denon or any other current AVR supported full 4K standard, I would have spent the extra cash now........
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097818


I just checked Newegg and the price is $549, did it go up since you bought it?

They had the price last week at $529 shipped plus, there was a V.me sign-up promotion that gave you another $50 off. That promo was supposed to end on March 21st but, Newegg supposedly ended it early (from what I read on another site).


habe
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by habe  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23098052


Nope, not ignorant or naive.


I fully understand that nothing in any electronics purchase is ever future proof. My decision was all about the pocket book. I was just about to pull the trigger on a Denon 3313Ci for $900. Since I don't have a 4K set right now, I bought a Pioneer SC-1222-K for $479 which was about half of what I intended on spending. I may have to buy a 4K receiver with the next HDMI standard in a year or so as to get better/full 4K compatibility but, I saved close to $500 in the immediate on a AVR that will do what I need for now.


If the Denon or any other current AVR supported full 4K standard, I would have spent the extra cash now........

They had the price last week at $529 shipped plus, there was a V.me sign-up promotion that gave you another $50 off. That promo was supposed to end on March 21st but, Newegg supposedly ended it early (from what I read on another site).


habe

It was $371 shipped open box near the beginning of the month. Bought one and other than two small scratches on the underside of the unit, it's in new condition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by habe  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097326


However, ALL current AVR's only support up to 4K 24hz & 30hz (25hz PAL?) due to the HDMI 1.4(a) spec limits.

Nope, current HDMI specs covers up to 24Hz (film framerate) at 4K, no 30Hz or 25Hz.


BTW, good choice that Pioneer SC-1222K. I bough one last year and it is the receiver with the best value I've ever had.


Regards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097677


Just so you know: the following is quoted from Wikipedia...

Yes, and I know that the current draft is not considering all the 4K modes. They are leaving out all the 120Hz modes and 60Hz 3D. They (the same brands that sells all these electronics) are "building a highway" but it is better to have something that lasts only 3-5 years so they could change again the standard and force everyone to buy new devices. In this case it is not a technical limitation but a programmed obsolescence of the standard itself.


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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23097554


Nothing in AV can be future proof, you have to be naïve or ignorant to believe that.


It's not the first time a CE device doesn't do everything listed in the spec. Is that a lie?


Is it a big fat lie when DVD players sold in the US/Can cannot play 'PAL' 576i50 DVD then, or Blu-ray players not playing PAL DVDs, 1080i50 Blu-ray discs or decode dts-HD MA fully, even these are part of the spec? Or HDTVs that are only 720p or 768p, or TVs that won't display 50i signals or multiples of 24Hz? In the ROW the players and TVs are pretty all dual standard.

The DVD spec was also specifing regions, and formats can be linked to regions, this is why a US DVD players can not play PAL DVDs. It is a limitation described in the standard by the movie distributors. Of course you can hack that DVD player using service menu, patched firmware or whatever to play PAL DVDs. There are region free players too, but all of them, locked or unlocked meet the DVD specifications, otherwise they will not be certified.


I started this thread to warn those no geek but audiophile people (not naive, not ignorant) who think that buying a 4K ready receiver will make them use it for 4K blu-rays with the future 4K screen and that will NOT happen with any current receiver. By the way, new blu-ray video standard must be released supporting 4K media before that happens because there isn't a current standard for 4K video blu-ray yet.


I am not talking about hacking into the firmware and get more that the specifications from a device. It is usual in smartphones, PC overclocking, TVs, car ECU, etc... but you must be a geek to do that and the average buyer of AV receivers is not. By the way, do not count on a firmware patch for current receivers, that has not happened in the past and is not going to happen, that would jeopardize their new receivers sales.


Regards
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by okibcn  /t/1463947/the-big-fat-lie-of-4k-support-in-av-receivers#post_23098409


The DVD spec was also specifing regions, and formats can be linked to regions, this is why a US DVD players can not play PAL DVDs. It is a limitation described in the standard by the movie distributors. Of course you can hack that DVD player using service menu, patched firmware or whatever to play PAL DVDs. There are region free players too, but all of them, locked or unlocked meet the DVD specifications, otherwise they will not be certified.


I started this thread to warn those no geek but audiophile people (not naive, not ignorant) who think that buying a 4K ready receiver will make them use it for 4K blu-rays with the future 4K screen and that will NOT happen with any current receiver. By the way, new blu-ray video standard must be released supporting 4K media before that happens because there isn't a current standard for 4K video blu-ray yet.


I am not talking about hacking into the firmware and get more that the specifications from a device. It is usual in smartphones, PC overclocking, TVs, car ECU, etc... but you must be a geek to do that and the average buyer of AV receivers is not. By the way, do not count on a firmware patch for current receivers, that has not happened in the past and is not going to happen, that would jeopardize their new receivers sales.


Regards

So let me get this straight... no matter what companies like Marantz, Pioneer and others say about their products being able to do 4K passthrough, it's just not going to be possible with their receivers at all? Nothing? Nada?


What's the point of promoting it if it is useless to new TV's featuring 4K in the coming years?


Again, I'm in the market right now for a new receiver, not because I wanted to buy a new one but because I have to buy a new one, and the new offerings from Marantz and Pioneer look like a good choice because of the advertised 4K passthrough. If this is the case and these receivers will be completely obsolete in a few years when I decide to upgrade my 1080p Panasonic G25 to whatever 4K, I might as well buy something cheap and upgrade my receiver then as well. Man, that Pioneer SC-1222-k from Newegg is looking better and better at this point...
 

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I have brought up this "ever evolving" HDMI crap for just what it is to me...crap- and I've got pounded into oblivion by every hdmi apologist (seemingly employed by AVR manus and hdmi board members) in existence for "not understanding the technology".


Yeah, sure...whatever helps you sleep at night. The fact of the matter is that after such wonderful advances such as top-flight room correction, multi-zone capability, streaming ability, and just about every other weapon any A/V could ask for, the "reinvention" of the hdmi standard has become the MVP in forcing the consumers hand to purchase new gear to become, wait for it, "current".


Makes you wanna puke in your soup.


But, go figure. It's evolution, baby.



James
 
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