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Discussion Starter #1
Who will make the biggest lcos splash at CES surprise wise


1 Sony: With a new brighter sxrd projector with a high contrast ratio


2 Canon: We have the rumor of a HT projector from Canon, I bet it would be bright but will it have a high contrast ratio


3 JVC: Can JVC add a DI to the HD11k/HD12k line and be competitive. They might need to pump up the watt in the bulb too. Long throw, good lenses? and a two box setup are pros for JVC.


What is your guess? Will it be option 1, 2, or 3?
 

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Maybe Canon with its 235:1 projector and JVCs new stuff. Sony will be showing the same but will have heavy 1080 Ruby marketing including the launch of Blue Ray and play station all over the place.
 

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None of the above


4 A 1080p Optoma for $6,000. That seams to be the biggest unsubstantiated rumor. ;)
 

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Tryg,


Have you noticed that no one has responded to my points about why Optoma won't have that $6K PJ in the infamous thread?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Tryg,


Have you noticed that no one has responded to my points about why Optoma won't have that $6K PJ in the infamous thread?
Cause were all clueless ;) We cant figure out if it can or cant be done. :)


I'll bet someone in Tiawan/China will something that can do 1080p for under $3k very soon. It wont have a $1100 DLP chip in it though :p


I mean for god sakes if you can knock out 20 models per year of a digital camera (equally complex) for under $500 then why not a projector for 6x that?
 

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Quote:
The biggest lcos news at CES, Canon JVC or Sony?
Sony, of course. You mean there are other companies? I would have thought that by now any others would have just packed up, admitted defeat, and are cowering in the fetal position in a corner somewhere.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
I highly doubt ANY 1080P projector will Retail for under 10k, this year at least. I will be shocked if it does.
I won't be, because we have C2Fine and Bi:Na 6 still to come from the LCD camp, and they have traditionally been the low cost leaders. I could easily see them coming in in the 5-7.5K MSRP price point with their LCD models. And the latest LCDs are really pumping up the contrast too.


I can see Optoma pricing the H80 at $8K and H81 with scaler at $10K to get market share.


It's going to be an interesting year for FP and the 1080p charge is coming.


Best,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Keep your guesswork to lcos in this thread please. We have heard about the wide aspect ratio Canon projector but I wonder if that is the one rumored about since it has already been shown.


Perhaps there is

1 2x 1400x1050 blended wide aspect projector from Canon for various uses.

AND

2 1920x1080 ht oriented projector


Option one sounds complicated and expensive. Still the blending projector sounds cool so I am all for it.
 

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Yeah, that would be cool assuming it's got better contrast than the SX50...


A native 2.35:1 for HT....


I just wish it was true 1080p instead of 1050p if that's what they might show.


Cheers,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
I highly doubt ANY 1080P projector will Retail for under 10k, this year at least. I will be shocked if it does.
Alan,

How about C2Fine 1080P LCD projectors? These should have very high contrast, and with 1080P resolution, SDE should be a non-issue. Hopefully the new manner in which the panels are addressed with finally get rid of VB which is a nagging issue with LCD.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
John K.

My issues with the blending option can be organized as follows.


1 Blending will not be perfect with a projector lacking absolute black.

2 Converging 3-6 panels will not be easy

3 1050 vertical instead of 1080

4 double the number of panels and electronics will not go unnoticed on the price tag


My doubt remains above for ht use.


For 2.35:1 from a 1920x1080 panel you can add a lens external to the projector or Canon could integrate an anamorpic lens as the standard lens.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson
John K.

...

3 1050 vertical instead of 1080

..

.
That's 2.8% total meaning only 1.4% overscan. Is that so critical for HT? And PC desktop can be anything.


Ken
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
I highly doubt ANY 1080P projector will Retail for under 10k, this year at least. I will be shocked if it does.
...Says the man on December 31st. :D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Have you noticed that no one has responded to my points about why Optoma won't have that $6K PJ in the infamous thread?
Maybe they did and you didn't notice. :) I did notice that after you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Supposedly the new DMD has improved panel contrast ratio. So you need to make sure the lens is better for this as well if you want to realize this.
you then didn't respond to my comments here
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
And the ~500:1 ANSI CR of the H78DC3 would be enough for them to sell a lot. If the DMD has higher on/off CR that does not mean that a better lens is needed to get that higher on/off CR. It doesn't work like that. If you disagree, please tell me why a better lens would be needed to get higher on/off CR that the DMD provides.
You can explain your position that they "need to make sure the lens is better for this as well if want to realize" "improved panel contrast ratio" if you want. Now you can't so that noone responded to your points. :)


--Darin
 

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Darin,


I'm sorry I didn't notice.


Out of curiosity, who's actually measured 500:1 ansi with the H78DC3? That's about 33% higher than the 370:1 Greg measure on the H79 which is supposed to be the superior projector of the two from Optoma. Then again Greg uses a modified ANSI checkerboard (8x8) rather than a straight ANSI checkerboard (4x4) which could account for the discrepancy.


As for a better lens for better on/off, my position is pretty simple...


With a better lens, you have less imperfections inside the glass. Every imperfection in the glass gives you unwanted scatterings. Those scatterings in the end cost you in the ability to
  • Resolve pixels
  • Deliver improved contrast ratio


Granted, we don't know if the current lens is at its limits for these, so I might be incorrect on these. All we really know is that the lens is capable of delivering the limits of the H78. Even you don't really know without testing that it is capable of any specs beyond that unless you have test results with this particular lens showing it's capable of fully resolving 1080p at a claimed 10K:1 on/off CR. Care to show your work?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Out of curiosity, who's actually measured 500:1 ansi with the H78DC3? That's about 33% higher than the 370:1 Greg measure on the H79 which is supposed to be the superior projector of the two from Optoma. Then again Greg uses a modified ANSI checkerboard (8x8) rather than a straight ANSI checkerboard (4x4) which could account for the discrepancy.
That would be a reason as 370:1 for the center rectangles sounds reasonable just from memory based on what I got for ANSI CR with one. I don't remember Greg using an 8x8 checkerboard. I thought he used the center 4 rectangles of a 4x4 checkerboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
As for a better lens for better on/off, my position is pretty simple...


With a better lens, you have less imperfections inside the glass. Every imperfection in the glass gives you unwanted scatterings. Those scatterings in the end cost you in the ability to
  • Resolve pixels
  • Deliver improved contrast ratio


Granted, we don't know if the current lens is at its limits for these, so I might be incorrect on these. All we really know is that the lens is capable of delivering the limits of the H78. Even you don't really know without testing that it is capable of any specs beyond that unless you have test results with this particular lens showing it's capable of fully resolving 1080p at a claimed 10K:1 on/off CR. Care to show your work?
Come to my house and I will show you a modified H79 getting about 9k:1 on/off CR at D65 (and around 100 lumens). No changes to any lens elements either. As far as fully resolving 1080p, that depends on the individual lens as well as how we define resolving 1080p, but I think if you look up close to the screen with an H79 focused as tightly as it will go you will see that it can resolve things that are less than half a pixel in area pretty easily. Get the lens dirty and maybe that would change though. Would you say that a Ruby with 1 pixel of misalignment can resolve 1080p or not? I've seen some use an MTF number of 10%, but that seems like a pretty low bar.


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Come to my house and I will show you a modified H79 getting about 9k:1 on/off CR at D65 (and around 100 lumens). No changes to any lens elements either. As far as fully resolving 1080p, that depends on the individual lens as well as how we define resolving 1080p...
.


I can make this pretty easy. Use Greg's multiburst pattern from the HDG3000 at 1080i, which should properly deinterlace to 1080p. If it does work at full 1080p, you'll get every bit of detail.

Quote:
... but I think if you look up close to the screen with an H79 focused as tightly as it will go you will see that it can resolve things that are less than half a pixel in area pretty easily.
That's a pretty loose test, IMO.

Quote:
Get the lens dirty and maybe that would change though. Would you say that a Ruby with 1 pixel of misalignment can resolve 1080p or not? I've seen some use an MTF number of 10%, but that seems like a pretty low bar.
Any projector with misalignment whether it's CRT, LCD, Three chip DLP, LCoS of any flavor can't resolve its full resolution. This is not limited to the Ruby.


Regards,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches
Any projector with misalignment whether it's CRT, LCD, Three chip DLP, LCoS of any flavor can't resolve its full resolution. This is not limited to the Ruby.
Then let's make this easy. :) By this definition I think it is clear that Optoma doesn't have to resolve 1080p in order to sell a lot of 1080p projectors. If the price is right. Just like the Ruby.


Obviously I can't test the Optoma lens with a 1080p chip given that it has a 720p chip. I can only go by what I see and it can resolve the lines between pixels that are much smaller than the 1080p pixels will be. But then there is chromatic aberation.


I'm still not sure what definition you are giving for your, "Any projector with misalignment ... can't resolve its full resolution." I understand what you are saying, but it is completely unclear as to whether you would claim that a 1080p projector with 10% misalignment (either through panels or lens) is "capable of fully resolving 1080p." Or 20%, 30%, 50%, 80%, etc. If you are going to claim any number like 10% (given that a projector with 10% misalignment is a "projector with misalignment") then it should be obvious that Optoma doesn't need to meet that just because the panels are 1080p. Many will of course want them to, but there is a huge difference between they want the projector to do and what it needs to do to be a viable product.


--Darin
 
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