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Discussion Starter #1,522
Really wide section of 130db+. That looks incredible, what’s the enclosure volume? And do these drivers actually sound good?
I do not have the numbers in front of me but I think it would fall somewhere a little north of the Alpha for box volume. If the specs are accurate it should sound good...
 

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I can’t go any deeper than 24, is it possible to go wider or taller?

I’d definitely be down for trying one of these if this driver is really around 400ish like it appears
 

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Discussion Starter #1,524
I can’t go any deeper than 24, is it possible to go wider or taller?



I’d definitely be down for trying one of these if this driver is really around 400ish like it appears
I will see about wider when I get a chance. If I went do the very bleeding edge of the 10" bracing rule I can go out to 33" wide before adding the third rail. Taller would knock the resonate frequency down, it looks good where it is at, I will try to keep that in tact.
 

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Interesting that a PA460 works in a Mini Dev, with a Vas of 402 liters, BL2/Re of 88.8, Cms of 0.19mm/N, and only 6mm Xmax, and you wouldn't recommend a PSS555-8 with a Vas of 444 liters, BL2/Re of 163, Cms of 0.11mm/N, and 11mm of Xmax in a Dev.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for the PSS just because I bought 2, I'm really just curious why there is enough of a difference that one can be used but not the other. Is it just that the PA460 is stupid cheap and you feel the SAF is a better option at a similar price point to the PSS? The only real difference I see between the SAF and the PSS is a larger cone with a higher compliance resulting in a larger Vas for the PSS. The PSS wins out in the motor force factor category, and only lacks 2mm of Xmax. If the Xmech of the PSS was confirmed to be 19-20mm (which I don't think is too absurd to consider) would that change anything? I mean, the SAF Dev pushes the driver well past Xmax, way beyond the 70% BL range and that apparently works quite well?

FWIW, I am not planning on using my PSS's in a Devastator, it is just confusing that the PA460 can be used in a smaller volume Mini with a Vas that is not a heck of a lot lower than the PSS, and has a comparatively weak motor with higher compliance.

I also realize the PA is not the optimal choice for a Dev, but it has obviously been used to good effect in one.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,526
Interesting that a PA460 works in a Mini Dev, with a Vas of 402 liters, BL2/Re of 88.8, Cms of 0.19mm/N, and only 6mm Xmax, and you wouldn't recommend a PSS555-8 with a Vas of 444 liters, BL2/Re of 163, Cms of 0.11mm/N, and 11mm of Xmax in a Dev.



Honestly, I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for the PSS just because I bought 2, I'm really just curious why there is enough of a difference that one can be used but not the other. Is it just that the PA460 is stupid cheap and you feel the SAF is a better option at a similar price point to the PSS? The only real difference I see between the SAF and the PSS is a larger cone with a higher compliance resulting in a larger Vas for the PSS. The PSS wins out in the motor force factor category, and only lacks 2mm of Xmax. If the Xmech of the PSS was confirmed to be 19-20mm (which I don't think is too absurd to consider) would that change anything? I mean, the SAF Dev pushes the driver well past Xmax, way beyond the 70% BL range and that apparently works quite well?



FWIW, I am not planning on using my PSS's in a Devastator, it is just confusing that the PA460 can be used in a smaller volume Mini with a Vas that is not a heck of a lot lower than the PSS, and has a comparatively weak motor with higher compliance.



I also realize the PA is not the optimal choice for a Dev, but it has obviously been used to good effect in one.
The price point is the thing with the 460 with it being capable of 11mm of excursion without too much distress. Both of them lose the nicer
dome in the response when loaded into a smaller QW resonator on the Devastators, that is just how they handle. The 460 is a mid bass beast in a M18V1, but once you get into the HT deep bass it is not in its element. The 460 is just so cheap and throw a few 380s in a box and it will get interesting fast too.

I really do not have anything setup for the PSS with a smaller rear and a larger front chamber at the moment. The D21V1 is setup the best with a 266 liters in the rear chamber and the 1451cm² front cross sectional area. It might do okay in the slimmer rear chambers, 200 to 220 liters which seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of pro woofers. I put it in a Mini V5 HCR concept cab and the mid bass and low bass response got messy compared to the D21V1. The PAs like the lower compression ratios on the front and the PSS.

The SAF has a 2/3rd gap is right around 19mm or so, a couple mm inside that it will be doing fine. Dayton does not give gap height or winding depth in the spec sheet, which is a bummer, it would be nice to get an idea of where it will most likely start breaking up. For it to handle 1000 watts it needs to push 17 or 18mm of excursion if I remember correctly. At that power the SAN, DS and NSW would be around 12 or 13mm. The SAN and DS would still be inside 2/3 gap by a few mm pushing 2000 watts. The NSW would still be inside the rated Xmax of 21mm with all kinds of room to move.

The Dayton woofers under the PSS are just priced so well it makes a hard case for the 21". Unless that 21" can reach an unexpectedly high displacement like the 460. With what is known currently I would say it would make a great music sub. However, its smaller siblings when combined can really sneak up on it fast if you do not mind dealing with multiple woofers and more wood...
 

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Hi All,
What would be a better driver for Devastator 21" Finalizer? the LaVoce new SAN215.30 or SAN214.50 ??

Also, I can't feel the ULF in my room so I thought at least get the mid-bass punch & chest slam, so is the finalizer the sub I need or I would be better with a mini Dev ??

I only have room for one extra sub, currently, I have a Rythmik fv15hp

Thanks :)
 

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I will see about wider when I get a chance. If I went do the very bleeding edge of the 10" bracing rule I can go out to 33" wide before adding the third rail. Taller would knock the resonate frequency down, it looks good where it is at, I will try to keep that in tact.
33” is perfect honestly. I’m not sure what the 10” rule is, but I can go up to 36” if need be.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,529
Hi All,
What would be a better driver for Devastator 21" Finalizer? the LaVoce new SAN215.30 or SAN214.50 ??

Also, I can't feel the ULF in my room so I thought at least get the mid-bass punch & chest slam, so is the finalizer the sub I need or I would be better with a mini Dev ??

I only have room for one extra sub, currently, I have a Rythmik fv15hp

Thanks :)

The question between the 214.50 and the 215.30 is pretty easy for a Finalizer. 1w1m they look pretty close, but the 214 is a few mm less on excursion and a 1db ahead on the left corner when you start pushing 2000 watts. It is also less expensive, I would go that route. The Finalizer should bring slam at most frequencies, not the lowest tune out there, but it is very competent with the larger rear chamber and 16Hz tune :)



 

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Discussion Starter #1,530
I updated the M18V6 with the 18DS100-4 2000 watt simulation. It is a beast for the form factor.... :D



 

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The price point is the thing with the 460 with it being capable of 11mm of excursion without too much distress. *Snipped excellent explanation*
.

Quote is for reference back to my original questions and Red Five's response.


Thank you for the excellent response, and not reading my response as a jab since it was definitely not meant as one. I have a decent knowledge of different subwoofer designs, but regarding horns/bandpass and the seemingly infinite arrangements possible, I am still on the low end of the learning curve. It is interesting stuff though, and I appreciate everyone on this forum willing to impart their knowledge to the rest! Go team!
 

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Discussion Starter #1,532 (Edited)
Quote is for reference back to my original questions and Red Five's response.


Thank you for the excellent response, and not reading my response as a jab since it was definitely not meant as one. I have a decent knowledge of different subwoofer designs, but regarding horns/bandpass and the seemingly infinite arrangements possible, I am still on the low end of the learning curve. It is interesting stuff though, and I appreciate everyone on this forum willing to impart their knowledge to the rest! Go team!

Good news, looking at the simulation again it must be in one of the larger rear chamber the excursion gets looser. 1000 watts into the V1 looks like this -





Excursion with the BW 20Hz 2nd order high pass filter is at 14.5mm. That might be workable based on the 11mm spec, I would guess it is getting close to the end of travel before distortion really takes hold. Now it is close to an 18" with the same power in a smaller box on that left corner, but it has a mid bass advantage if you look at the SPL climb to 30Hz and beyond. The best use case is a smaller room that gains well. Most of the drop below 30Hz would fill in with good room gain. 20Hz is about 114db and 30Hz is 121.6db, close to a 8db slope between the two points and it would need to be a very fine room to deal with that...


Just for fun I will punch the tune up to 30Hz with the same chamber volume. This is what this beast is designed to do.



 

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Discussion Starter #1,533
33” is perfect honestly. I’m not sure what the 10” rule is, but I can go up to 36” if need be.

Here is an educated guess as to what a box would be for displacement and dimensions. The woofer has this part number - 24NDS151U1 I could probably knock the vent area down some, velocity sits around 18m/s, but compression would be a few tenths of a db with the current configuration.



 

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Discussion Starter #1,534 (Edited)
Mini Devastator 21" Version 5 HCR

This has been in the design queue for a few weeks now, glad to see it finished! Continuing with the fun and insanity in smaller packages theme, the M21V5 has an 18Hz tune and is designed to handle 2000 watts without issue. Featuring the top hatch configuration and rear port routing along with the higher compression front for added space savings. Gross cabinet volume works out to 15.35 cubic, smaller than a Full Marty cabinet (16.67 cubic feet), something to think about. The simulation is based on the SAN214.50, but other popular 21"s such as the DS and NSW will work just as well in this cabinet. A BW 18Hz 2nd order high pass filter was used for controlling excursion in the simulation.






1000 watt simulation for comparison to other cabinets, it hits the 115db mark at 20Hz with 1000 watts.





2000 watt data


















 

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Discussion Starter #1,535 (Edited)
Behold, a Dual PA380 Devastator running 500 watts pushing 9mm of excursion. Not bad for $160 in woofers...


 

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Discussion Starter #1,536
I am locked out of editing, above post should say 500 watts, not 5000 watts... the woofers would not be in the cabinet at 5000 watts...
 

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Lol!
 

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Yamaha RXa2060 - HTM12 / Pa460 3way LCR - Volt10s atmos - HT8s rears - (4) Dual JBL Devs - (2) F20s
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@Red Five, could you overlay my mini narrow 460 over this. Based on the size I am curious if this gained any down low.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,539 (Edited)
@Red Five, could you overlay my mini narrow 460 over this. Based on the size I am curious if this gained any down low.
105db at 20Hz and the 114db at 30Hz. It definitely has the advantage. The mobile for the weekend now, plotting will be a bit. 110 and 116 for the Dual 15".

Edit: 5db would be a out equal to adding a second mini.
 

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@Red Five, I'm getting ready to renovate my theater soon. This will include a false wall with a max depth of 22". The plan is to have three vertical 1099s, two HS24s in 19ft^3 (net) tuned to 17Hz and a pair of the BMD shallow cabinets loaded with the LaVoce SAN214 drivers. I'm also working on a 10Hz tune for the 24s. Do you think the shallow BMD would integrate well sharing the front wall with the 24s in those 17Hz cabinets?
 
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