[Harry P]

Yes, pretty lame I know, but I just had to say it. My pair of ACI Force subs arrived yesterday. OPS kinda messed up the delivery. Why did they come twice? Boxes looked like they'd been rained on. Luckily they packed them like they were ancient artifacts. Both subs in perfect shape. I like the hardwood contrast with the black finish. They are a perfect visual match to the Sapphires. I set them up to pound away and log some hours. First impressison is they seem like they'll have plenty of output for my requirements. Right now this is strictly a stereo setup.


Intested in any and all tips on setting up stereo subs. I did get the 85Hz passive filters but haven't tried them yet. Right now, just want to get hours on the subs. Any setup and tweak ideas are appreciated. Room is in the basement. Concrete walls,floor, medium size, maybe around 16 X 23ft. The Sapphires are on the long wall, about 4 feet out from the wall and around 8 feet apart. Thanks for any ideas!

 

[joaquin]

Harry,


I think you may want to check http://forums.smr-forums.com

 

[Kendrid]

I'm sure Mike can help out. Concrete walls...ick

 

[Mike Dzurko]

Congratulations Harry! Now the fun starts . . . .


I would recommend using the 85Hz passive filters in your system. They make all the difference in achieving great integration AND freeing up the mains from trying to reproduce low bass. You will also want to experiment with using the foam plug in the Sapphire ports. This will convert the Sapphires to a second order system and often results in a smoother transition. Key word in all this: experiment. Every room is different.


As you know, it makes sense to get some hours on the subs before getting serious about setup. Otherwise you'll be doing it twice.


Integrating a sub(s) is a process that requires following ordered steps. Some rooms/systems are easy, and some systems are very time consuming. The key is to eliminate each variable one at a time. It really helps to have a test CD with some pure sinewave tones. Second best is a CD with a very repetitious bass line.


Get your initial placement set first. This may be changed latter. From what I remember about your room. You'll likely want both subs along the wall behind your mains. One sub in the far right corner, the other sub about 1/3 of the way out from the left corner.


1) I'd start with the 85Hz filters in and the sub crossovers set at around 80Hz and adjust level to be easily audible. Using your test CD with a tone at about 80Hz or repetitious bass adjust phase switch for maximum output at the listening position. This is most easily accomplished with an extra person to adjust the knob.


2) Turn frequency all the way down. As you play music with a repetitious line, adjust the bass level upward until just consistently audible.


3) Experiment with the crossover controls you want the bass to be ful, but not bloated. It is possible the final adjustment may be as low as 50Hz


4) Sit back and listen with a variety of music, play with only the level until it seems just right, you're just try to fill in the bottom so most likely the level control will be just barely on.

 

[John Desmond]

Harry, I just hope the Lucas Lawyers don't sue you for using that cheesy phrase

 

[Harry P]

Quote:

Originally posted by joaquin Harry, I think you may want to check http://forums.smr-forums.com

Thanks. I lurked there a lot when I was checking out ACI to see if I wanted to try the Sapphires. My impression is that SMR as a forum is really only good if you're a Lexicon guy. The vast majority of posts are by the same handful of people. Not much new info as far as I'm concerned. Too bad, I'd personally like to see a more vibrant ACI forum.

 

[Harry P]

Kendrid:


The concrete walls are actually fired over an covered with sheetrock. It looks much better than raw concrete. The floor has a pretty thick carpet. It is actually a pretty decent listening space!


John:


I'll keep a watch up for the Lucas Lawyers I don't really need to get certified.


Mike:


Thanks for the setup tips. Pretty much what I figured. Do you really feel that the passive filters are the way to go? I know that many people have argued that the best way to integrate subs is to just run the mains full range and bring the subs up under them. With the Sapphires going strong down to around 40 I'd planned to just bring in the Force under that.

 

[Mike Dzurko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Harry P Thanks. I lurked there a lot when I was checking out ACI to see if I wanted to try the Sapphires. My impression is that SMR as a forum is really only good if you're a Lexicon guy. The vast majority of posts are by the same handful of people. Not much new info as far as I'm concerned. Too bad, I'd personally like to see a more vibrant ACI forum.

Harry:


The SMR forum is a bit of a quandry for us. It seems to me that several years ago it was a far more active forum. Then they had ISP problems that put them out for weeks. Since coming back, it seems they've never attracted a very large participation base. I'm sure part of that is due to the deserved success of this AVS forum and the Home Theater Forum.


As you mention, it is definitely the place that Lexicon users hang out. Unfortunately, only a handful of ACI customers chose to post at SMR.


We've considered opening up our own forum. Yet I think part of the problem is there are so many forums already that it has become fragmented enough. I guess we'll just wait and see!

 

[Kendrid]

Quote:

Originally posted by Harry P Kendrid: The concrete walls are actually fired over an covered with sheetrock. It looks much better than raw concrete. The floor has a pretty thick carpet. It is actually a pretty decent listening space!

I was thinking bare concrete walls - I have seen many people become very unhappy when they moved their system into their basement. With all of those hard surfaces they might as well buy a pair of $100 speakers.


Have fun with those subs.

 

[John Desmond]

Quote:

Originally posted by Harry P Thanks for the setup tips. Pretty much what I figured. Do you really feel that the passive filters are the way to go? I know that many people have argued that the best way to integrate subs is to just run the mains full range and bring the subs up under them. With the Sapphires going strong down to around 40 I'd planned to just bring in the Force under that.

Harry, I was one of those who thought the best way to integrate subs was to leave the mains run full-range and just bring the sub in under that. Mike D convinced me to try the passive filters. They make a big difference. I have a feeling that your Sapphire's bass response is somewhat similar to my Jaguar's bass response. My Jags sound so much better when they are high-passed. The integration is so much better. Go for it!

 

[Harry P]

My Force impressions-

Misc:

These are beautiful little subs. Small, HEAVY, very attractive. The wood panels are a great compliment to the black finish. They were very well packed and I got them when ACI said I would. All my dealings with ACI staff have been good-great. I do wish that Mike D were more available for the phone, but he does return Emails. The control knobs on the sub are too small, they make adjustment more difficult than it would be with larger controls or how about remote? I'd be willing to pay more to have remote control.


The Sound:

Some of the best bass I've ever heard. And yes, this includes some fine systems that cost WAY more. First, i had to get over my prejuidice against passive highpass filters. I kept trying to get the Force-Sapphire match while running the Sapphires full-range. It wasn't bad, but it never really jelled the way I wanted. Inserted the passive filters and thought that it changed the sound of the Sapphires. Turns out that yoiu need to adjust the volume down on the sub since the passives reduce the volume level of the Sapphires a bit. Once I had the balance right, the veil was gone. Also turns out that fiddling with the phase adjust ment on the subs made a pretty big difference. A friend came over and we took turns listening and turning knobs. Having another set of hands really helped. Much better than running back and forth from listening chair to sub. My friend's comments when we were done "I would never have guessed a system that costs so little could sound this musical" He just kept shaking his head. (He owns Watt-Puppy 6).

The bass goes low, real low. It is felt more than heard on instruments like pipe organ. String bass and grand pianos have a reality I've rarely experienced. Live rock tracks have a slam and punch that is just plain fun. I can't wait to get home at night and just listen! John, thanks for pushing me on the passive filters, you were right!

 

[Kendrid]

Nice review.


Time to order the filters... I've been playing with my Sapphires and SVS 25-31 running the Sapphires full range. It isn't bad, but I'm curious to hear how much better it can be with them crossed over.

 

[Evan S]

I don't use the filters for my Sapphire/Titan combo, but basically do the same thing by crossing the Sapphires over at 80htz internal to my Anthem AVM-20 processor. I find this to be much preferred to running full range and bringing the sub in to fill the lower frequencies. I also use the port blockers on the Sapphires and find this superior for integration without using the ports.

 

[Harry P]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kendrid Nice review. Time to order the filters... I've been playing with my Sapphires and SVS 25-31 running the Sapphires full range. It isn't bad, but I'm curious to hear how much better it can be with them crossed over.

Kendrid:


You've got to try the filters, a serious improvement not only in the transition itself, but in the openess of the upper midbass and even into the mids. I guess it really does make a difference when the Sapphires woofer isn't trying to pump as much air. The louder you play, the more apparent is the difference. Much better dynamics. Hard to beat for $29 !


Oh, and I agree with Evan, the port plugs offer further improvements to the transition.

 

[bob23_60201]

Mike D,


For people using larger models such as the Talisman, would you still recommend using one (or two) Force/Titan subwoofers (assuming that budget is not an issue)? And if so, what would you recommend regarding hookup/setup?


On a side note, a forum at your website may not have all the traffic of a major forum, but it will be a great place to get quality, accurate information about ACI products. People lurking on these forums inquiring about ACI can be directed to such a forum to learn more about your products.

 

[Kendrid]

Quote:

Originally posted by bob23_60201 On a side note, a forum at your website may not have all the traffic of a major forum, but it will be a great place to get quality, accurate information about ACI products. People lurking on these forums inquiring about ACI can be directed to such a forum to learn more about your products.

This is a very good idea. AV123 has done it , and their regulars now hang out there.


The software to run a Bulletin board is very cheap ($160). All you need is a Windows or Linux box and an internet connection.
http://www.vbulletin.com/order/

 

[Mike Dzurko]

Quote:

Originally posted by bob23_60201 Mike D, Bob: For people using larger models such as the Talisman, would you still recommend using one (or two) Force/Titan subwoofers (assuming that budget is not an issue)? And if so, what would you recommend regarding hookup/setup? On a side note, a forum at your website may not have all the traffic of a major forum, but it will be a great place to get quality, accurate information about ACI products. People lurking on these forums inquiring about ACI can be directed to such a forum to learn more about your products.

Each Talisman has a powered woofer built in. Same driver as the Force. Different electronics. Optimized more as a woofer-sub instead of a sub. With the AWS system, one can expect to adjust to extremely accurate response into the low 30s and mid 20s. And of course the normal placement for stereo towers is not optimum for that last octave. Many Talisman owners are fully satisfied to have their bass easily extend to 25-30hz in room. For those that want that last 1/2 octave, I'd recommend the new Maestro sub. No, it isn't quite ready yet, but it will be soon

 

[Mike Dzurko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kendrid This is a very good idea. AV123 has done it , and their regulars now hang out there. The software to run a Bulletin board is very cheap ($160). All you need is a Windows or Linux box and an internet connection. http://www.vbulletin.com/order/

Bob, Kevin:


It is a good idea and one we've considered. Cost is certainly not prohibitive. The reality is that right now there is no way I can free up the people-hours needed to setup and maintain our own site. Time is the resource that we are shortest on. Maybe once we are able to wrap up a few of our big projects The input is very much appreciated, it certainly does help us evaluate our priorities and plans.