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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Maybe it's possible to have a civil discussion on this and maybe not. I guess we'll find out. :)


FWIW. Here's my take. For some reason, I'm much more apt to put the SW disks on than LOTR. Despite the EE on Phantom Menace :), I've watched both it and AOTC many times since. After I saw FOTR and TT, I really didn't have a strong compulsion to watch them again. I actually found myself fast-fowarding through many of the Frodo/Gollum/SamWise and even the battles scenes on TT. Alot of the film actually bored me. Maybe because I know the stories so well. I have to skip scenes in SW too, but there are some I can watch over and over again, and still find new things to entertain me. (Lucas definitely knows how to saturate the screen with interesting details.) And although Lucas revisits similar themes in each SW film, they all have a slightly different look, characters, locations, and feel. Each one is a new entity that's never been seen before.


My favorite of the SW films was A New Hope, hands down. It had a fresh and unique vision unlike anything before. And I think it was the most solid SW story in terms of shear dramatic arc, and had the most epic feel of all the films (despite some of the now cheesy lookin model FX). The different dynamics, the highs and lows, and the humor all seemed to hit the right notes at the right times, which I don't think Lucas has repeated since. With talent like Alec Guiness and Peter Cushing though, I'd expect nothing less. In some ways I think Lucas worked better in a cinematic sense when he was restricted to a more limited budget and analog FX. That required more invention, and a stronger story and direction to hold things together. I'm hopeful that the last film in the series, Episode III will come close to the level of A New Hope though. The stage certainly seems to be set for this anyway.


In contrast, the LOTR films are about as perfectly realised as any film in history. They are an unprecedented achievement. The Middle Earth Jackson and his crew have created seems virtually seamless to me, and utterly authentic. Aside from being slightly put to sleep by the story, I can't really find anything in them technically to criticize. In a bizarre way, I guess the fact that they're so good makes them less interesting to me. :)
 

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I too found some scenes in FOTR boring...i actually did fall asleep during the middle of it...and when i woke up, seemed like the movie was still in the SAME battle scene.


can't say the same for SW...


to be honest, i don't understand all the hype about LOTR in general, but that's probably just me (i know i'm not in the majority).


just my .02
 

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Hi,


I like SW, afterall I LOVE SF.


And I like fantasy too. But I just don't get The Ring.


The first Ring is ok. At least it's something flesh, and I usually like LONG movie! But it gets real boring in the TT with constant flighting and the same old CG.


When will Frodo kick some ass?


regards,


Li On
 

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Well, here's the problem I see with this.


If it were a simple case of SWs Episodes IV-VI, then I easily choose those over LOTRs. But if we're comparing Episodes I-II, then give me LOTRs any day of the week.


Star Wars was a groundbreaking experience and as a child it certainly shaped my interest in movies. Lord of the Rings was an epic experience and as an adult rekindled my interest of such fantasy/period pictures.
 

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I don't really see why these two series are being compared, but I'm going with LOTR. It takes a theme that could easily become corny and treats it with such care and respect that it becomes believable.


For me, Star Wars is a tainted classic. I saw the original in theaters as a pre-teen, and it was all I cared about for a whole summer. I eagerly awaited the sequels, seeing and enjoying each in their first week of release even though I was a young adult by the last one. I can't say the first sequels were perfect to even my young mind. I remember thinking "Oh NO, that's Grovers voice!" when Yoda first spoke. I still think that was a huge mistake. I also remember thinking the Ewoks were awful. As careful as they were with the special effects, they showed the bottoms of the Ewoks feet a few times, and they were just plain black vinyl. It looks so bogus, like costumes out of a 50's movie.

Star Wars completely fell apart for me with Phantom Menace. Those early original trilogy "disturbances in The Force" were now beating me over the head. When Jar-Jar Binks uttered his first lines, I flashed back 20 years to my Yoda reaction, but this time it was "Oh Jesus, the NAACP is gonna have a field day with this... Lucas made a space *****". I was waiting for him to get down on his knees and say Mammeeee!. Maybe the worst realized character in the history of sci-fi.

The kid was too young for the Pod Race, and that whole thing just seemed thown in to me to copy the breathtaking Speeder Bike chase in the original trilogy. The cartoony fat slave owner flying with thos little tiny wings, ugh. I cringe just thinking about

The original Star Wars has quite a few hokey moments, but they're kind of endearing. The new one's hokey moments are real groaners.


I think Lucas just waited too long to start these, and lost the magic. He was already too revered for anyone involved in the making of Phantom Menace to just say, "You know what George, this Jar-Jar really sucks. Maybe you should re-consider it, or at the very least change the voice". They just rolled on his credentials, and created a huge train wreck.


I'll still see the third one in the theaters, but actually just for closure. Before Phantom Menace came out, I remember reading that Lucas decided not to do the final 3 films. At that time, I was hugely disappointed. Now I'm actually glad, which pretty much says it all for what's become of Star Wars.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
Hi,


I like SW, afterall I LOVE SF.


And I like fantasy too. But I just don't get The Ring.


The first Ring is ok. At least it's something flesh, and I usually like LONG movie! But it gets real boring in the TT with constant flighting and the same old CG.


When will Frodo kick some ass?


regards,


Li On
Actually The Two Towers had a bunch of non CGI special effects which I loved. As for Frodo kicking ass, if you haven't read the books, you are in for a huge surprise.


Back to the topic, I saw Star Wars the day it came out and at the time there was no equal, not even close. Subsequent years of copying and technical evolution have diluted it a quite bit, but taking it in the context of it's time, it's still my favorite adventure movie. The original trilogy has a "fun factor", not found in the new episodes.


I have highly enjoyed seeing Jackson's treatment of J.R.R. Tolkien's masterpiece, but it's an adaption, not breaking any new ground for me. I don't hold it "religiously" as do a lot of people.
 

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The LOTR films are boring and SW dumb. I'll take dumb.
 

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As films, I rank them this way:


The Empire Strikes Back (NON-SE)

Star Wars (NON-SE)

The Fellowship of the Ring

The Two Towers

Return of the Jedi (NON-SE)

















Attack of the Clones

The Phantom Menace



Peter Jackson is a far, FAR superior filmmaker to the George Lucas of the past six years.
 

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TOK,


VERY well put. I agree 100% with your sentiments. Ep. I and II did seem to lose that Star Wars "magic" to me. They lost me from the beginninig moments in the Phantom Menace when those alien guys started talking with the silly samaurai voices.


Unlike the original trilogy, IMO, there is just no real chemistry between the characters in the new movies. The lines all seem so forced, and there is no real emotion to them. It seems like the characters in the new trilogy all take themselves too seriously or something. I know these people are good actors, but you sure wouldn't know it by their performances in these two movies. I blame that on the director (Lucas). I think these movies would have been much better served if Lucas had allowed somebody else to do the directing.


The original trilogy had a roughness about it that made it much easier to identify with. The new movies are too sleek and steril, and they just seem to feed on their own spectacle. They have more or less ignored the human element that makes you actually care about the characters and what happens to them. There's no emotional attachment, IMO. This is where the LOTR movies are so different. They are still an incredible spectacle, but at the same time, they have characters that deliver performances that the viewers can connect with on an emotional level. Yes, they do move a bit slow at times, but as a whole, they are very satisfying.


Anyway, there's still hope for them to at least improve in the final Star Wars movie, but they have long lost their opportunity to make these prequels anything near as special and endearing as the first trilogy was.


I put the LOTR movies just slightly below the original Star Wars trilogy on my all-time list. Not because I think the original SW trilogy is better, but mostly because of the fond memories I carry with me from seeing them as a young boy. Those movies (along with a couple others like Raiders, E.T. and Back to the Future) defined the culture of my childhood. For that reason alone, they all hold a special place in my heart.


--Scott
 

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When I saw the original SW flick, my reaction was that Lucas had drawn heavily from Tolkein in developing his plot...Luke Skywalker for Frodo, Obie Wan for Gandalf, the Emperor for Sauron, Darth Vader for Saruman, etc. I still think that the first three SW films are the best screen rendition of Tolkein to date.....
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
When will Frodo kick some ass?
If that's what you're after, I would stay far away from ROTK :) What happens is wayyyyyyyyyyy heavier than that. On the other hand, Eowyn is going to kick amazing, witch-king ass.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MFrank
When I saw the original SW flick, my reaction was that Lucas had drawn heavily from Tolkein in developing his plot...Luke Skywalker for Frodo, Obie Wan for Gandalf, the Emperor for Sauron, Darth Vader for Saruman, etc. I still think that the first three SW films are the best screen rendition of Tolkein to date.....
WHAT?!?! Saruman is Frodo's father? OH MY GOD!
 

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The first SW (ep. IV) was the most exciting movie I had seen, ever. The next two were great - very imaginative and with characters you really cared about. The next one (ep. I) was boring and felt contrived. I didn't really care much what happened to any of them. That whole thing with the microscopic critters who compose the Force was just too much to take. Lucas should just have left well enough alone and left the Force more mysterious.


LOTR does have boring moments, but it's a much more substantial story with characters that I really care about. It's more emotionally involving than SW's current crop of films. I'll watch the last in the SW series, but I'm not anticipating it nearly as much as I am ROTK.
 

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Sorry folks, you just can't compare the two. Star Wars has become a thinly veiled excuse to sell toys. It's all flash and no substance. The Lord of the Rings has so many more demanding themes than SW ever had, so I can see where some who are less willing to see beyond the magnificent visuals would get bored. It's like comparing U571 to Das Boot!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I agree on the commercialism of SW, Mark. However per my remarks here I think SW has more depth than it's frequently given credit for. And I think Lucas might defend the merchandising of the film as giving young people a way of "acting out" some of the important themes in the film. (Not that I'd agree.) It's also possible he does alot of charitable things with the profits his enterprises generate, above and beyond all the people they employ.
Quote:
The Lord of the Rings has so many more demanding themes than SW ever had, so I can see where some who are less willing to see beyond the magnificent visuals would get bored.
I don't doubt this. But can you give a for instance?
 

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Emotions....


I was 9 years old when Star Wars came out. I still remember the feeling I had when I left the movie with a big smile on my face. I had a mystical feeling about 'the force' and looked at things differently. The theme and the effects blew me away. I was consumed by this movie for a year or two. I loved it.

Then the Empire Strikes Back came out. It was 'cool'; lots of action and adventure. Was also a great movie, it kept the feeling of the original star wars alive.

Unfortunately, change came with the Return of the Jedi. Ewoks....This must have been when Lucas had kids cause it seemed like he gave them these 'teddy bears'. The Star Wars feeling had faded with this movie, riding the wave of the previous two. Two HUGE things happed with RotJ: 1)TONS of special effects, even too much. 2)Characters targeted toward 6 year old kids.

The Star Wars films had gone from an epic, adult space fantasy to a franchised, children's tale.


Being much older when LOTR came out, I may have a different viewpoint so its hard to compare the two. When I saw LOTR I was awed. PJ really brought the books to life. For those who loved the books, the movies where great. The story telling, sets, costumes, effects...all were incredible!


LOTR is a much more polished and epic movie(s) where the first two Star Wars movies gave us a new feeling all together. However, many see StarWars as tarnished now because not only had GL created the new movies in the series as children's slap stick comedies, he had gone back and done the same to the originals! This is why so many are bitter toward lucas and have jump ship to the 'adult' movies of Jackson.
 

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I am a fan of both, actually Lucas in one interview said he got inspired by the books the LOTRs go figure. Both stories are simple, the epic battle of good verses Evil. The Ring symbolizes power and control, I guess you can compare it to the Death Star, hahahaha JK! Bottom line it is a matter of opinion, this is almost like discussing is vinyl better than Cd's ;) I agree with Eric , I too was around the same age when I saw Star Wars and was amazed on how cool it was, saw it 9 times, and I loved Empire Strikes back, but started to loose some interest after the 3rd one for the same reasons. I was told that the Ewoks planet was actually originally suppose to be Chewies planet, but not sure on that one.


LOTR: is still one of my favorite books too read, and I think Jackson does a masterful job at painting the big screen with vivid characters and good actors to make this movie flow smoothly. I hope he decides to do the Hobbit Next!!!!!!
 

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"WHAT?!?! Saruman is Frodo's father? OH MY GOD!"



I was rolling on the floor after reading this one........

Thanks MR. Poindexter
 

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Quote:
I think SW has more depth than many people give it credit for.
And I think it doesn't. Salon magazine did a good job of debunking the whole "Star Wars is grand mythmaking" idea in this article:

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feat...cas/index.html


Star Wars has more to do with the pulp scifi magazines of the 30s and 40s and kid oriented serials such as Flash Gordon than with serious fiction such as Lord of the Rings, no matter how much Lucas tries to claim otherwise. In fact, it's contradictory to claim that Lucas is engaged in "grand mythmaking" while at the same time claiming that the godawful dialogue in the prequels is simply trying to imitate the "style" of 30s and 40s movie serials. Also, I remember that when people complained about all the kiddie stuff in TPM, there were responses from Lucas fanboys along the lines of "of course it's kiddie stuff! Kiddie stuff is all Star Wars was ever about!" Fascinating how people try to have it both ways.

Quote:
I think Lucas might defend the merchandising of the film as giving young people a way of "acting out" some of the important themes in the film.
Yeah, and the makers of He-Man, Transformers, and other product-commercials-posing-as-entertainment could claim the same thing, with the same credibility.
 

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RobertR: Hollywood in general is like that, Lucas to has gotten good ideas from other people and put together a pretty darn good series(at least the first 3)... Peter Jackson does the samething, I just think he did it better, but he had allot of good information to go off of. Don't forget the LOTR series of books are about as detailed as they come.


Now what I like about Jacksons approach:

He is putting the movies on DVD right away and he has two versions too choose from. I just wish Lucas would put his films on DVD Now!!!!(First Series) Also I must add he did have to do with the Indiana Jones Series also.
 
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