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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the recent announcement that 3 Chip DLP may be available 'sooner' than later to the committed hobbyist with a few dollars to spare, I've been wondering how DLP single chip projection will be judged in the future.


I've watched with interest over time, as the Sony VW10HT LCD projector is reassessed in light of new product performance.


I think history will say the 10HT was a genuine breakthrough product for its time, if ultimately flawed in key areas of image quality.


So how will history judge single chip DLP projection?



Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz
 

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I suspect single-chip DLP projectors will continue to be built for 5 or more years.


History will judge them as far and away the most critical technology in bringing home-theater projection to, well, the home.


The CRTs were too big, bulky, expensive.... the LCDs not really good enough.


While the single-chip DLP market is still small in units (for the home), of the first million home theaters (with projectors), single-chip DLP will be the most important technology among that category.
 

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Max

anti dlp thinking ?

dlp aims at reaching CRT qualities while improving its defficiencies.

what exactly do you have in mind ? ....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
My thinking actually started with a few comments I heard down here about the Sony 10HT LCD.


It's now selling for next to nothing here and a former owner said how time has really shown it to be far less than what it really was described as being at the time. (Which is little more than post-purchase dissonance from being an early adopter - but losing more than $13, 000NZ on this projector must hurt!)


Based on the ongoing revisionist history attributed to audio/HT products, my question is really geared to answering what will we all make of single chip DLP in the future? Audio and HT products are all revised over time, so will single chip DLP maintain its place or will it suffer from 'the 10HT effect'?


It might be a fairer comparison to nominate a projector, (maybe the NEC LT150), but I think the class of performance here is far more interesting to look at.


So will we still believe in time that single chip DLP was good as what we think now?


If not not why not - if so what will still be the key elements from single chip DLP that future DLP builds from.


Speculative I know, but I was quite taken by surprise by the somewhat rapid revision of the Sony's place.


Rapid progress in this market also leads to rapid revision of previous performance standards.


So how will history judge single chip DLP projection?


Max Christoffersen
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Max,


I think if you take one example you will see that the same thing has already happened with judging some single chip DLPs harshly after the fact. The Sharp 9000 was highly thought of here 21 months ago, but isn't now. If single chip DLPs were going away anytime soon I think they would have the same curve (put down in a few years). However, I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon. They allow for smaller projectors than the 3 chips, are cheaper to make, currently have better CRs, and help differentiate the market for TI.


So, I predict that in 5 years today's single chip DLPs won't be highly thought of here, but those released at that point will be. Of course, 3 or 5 chippers will still be considered better.


Not trying to start a war, but I don't think CRT will be highly thought of in 5 years either (other than for those looking for something real cheap). Guy has already pointed out that his HT1000 has better black levels within individual frames than his CRT except for the dark scenes. Once single chip DLP projectors pass CRTs in calibrated on/off CR it will mean that the CRTs have relatively grey blacks across the whole range compared to single chip DLPs.


--Darin
 

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Since the coming of DLP, the home theatre projector lifecycle seems to have accelerated incredibly rapidly. I remember auditioning an LCD projector in 1994 and in 1997. I don't remember being able too impressed by the improvements in image quality in those 3 years. However, since the coming of DLP, the incremental improvements every 6 months in contrast ratio and picture processing has been utterly amazing.


Just look at the HT1000, 2 years ago you would not be able to come close to that sort of contrast ratio for a digital projector even if you paid USD$100,000.00 but now every household can afford it for next to nothing.


I think DLP still has a bit more life in it as a technological platform. Isn't innovation amazing !
 

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I think very soon hardware will overtake software requirements so the HT1000 may not suffer from the 10HT effect because people will soon be asking themselves " how much more quality do I really need ?" "how much more black do I need when I can see dark movies superbly..."


Its going to be like the PC chips, and upgrading from a Pentium 4 2ghz to a Pentium 6 10ghz. I think people will realise at a certain point that you don't need to go any further with the technology.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp


Not trying to start a war, but I don't think CRT will be highly thought of in 5 years either (other than for those looking for something real cheap). Guy has already pointed out that his HT1000 has better black levels within individual frames than his CRT except for the dark scenes. Once single chip DLP projectors pass CRTs in calibrated on/off CR it will mean that the CRTs have relatively grey blacks across the whole range compared to single chip DLPs.


--Darin
Not trying to further a war but maybe you should include all of Guy's comments. From what I recall Guy's comments on the HT1000 approaching a "CRT like picture" only applied to a

IMHO digital and DLP have other issues that need addressed just as much as contrast and black level. I would really like to replace my XG110 with a digital next year when we move into our new house but at this time there is no way. As an example my fiance and I happened to stop by and look at a Sharp DLP (10000 I believe) this past weekend. It was on display at a local custom AV shop playing the CBS HD college football game. I have one word for you....dithering. My fiance, who is video technology agnostic, immediately noticed it and said "what was that". After I explained it she emphatically said "there was no way we are replacing our CRT with that".


I haven't seen a 3 chip DLP in action but at this time I feel DLP has too many issues for me. The only digital I have seen that I could replace my CRT with is the Sony SXRD. Even as impressive as the SXRD demo at Cedia was I would need much more audition time to commit to replacing my XG.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by GScott
Not trying to further a war but maybe you should include all of Guy's comments. From what I recall Guy's comments on the HT1000 approaching a "CRT like picture" only applied to a
A 70" 16:9 screen with a 1024x768 is equivalent to a 87.5" screen with a 1280x720 projector. Still not big by my standards, but in a few years I don't think we will be stuck at 720p for DLPs. Also, we are talking about 2002's technology in the HT1000. No dark segment to reduce the dithering in the low light level material and worse CR and brightness than the 10k (my measurements from both). TI figured out how to improve the images in the dark material in a way that I hadn't thought of, and I don't rule out improvements to the bright stuff with single chip DLPs either.


I agree about the artifacts with the 10k (I have one). I believe that the 3-chippers are better in this department and especially the LCOS technology. I have an SX21 on its way and it is reasonably high contrast LCOS that interests me the most.


I did not say the digital had a "CRT like picture". I basically said that the HT1000 has better ANSI CR than Guy's CRT and worse on/off CR, according to his posts about his experience.


--Darin
 

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How will history judge the Apple iPod? I don't know and I don't give a ****.

Huh?

Isn't the reality that everything we are looking at today destined for the techno garbage can

I have no illusion that in 10 years I'll look at my SX21 (that has not even arrived yet) and laugh that I got so excited about such a piece of junk.

That, after all, is what makes this so much fun.

The thought of what is round the corner.


Enjoy what you've got


if you've got nought

buy something now


settle back and enjot the show :)


Rob
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm sure that many of the products are destined for land fills, but that's not really the point I'm raising for discussion.


To clarify there are several issues here:


I think they are these:


A) Have we *today* reached a level of performance that introducing the reality of diminishing returns - ie (as is raised earlier in the thread), how much will we really need in the future that isn't provided by the stellar performers available right now; ie NEC HT1000/ JVC SX21?


B) Are there genuine classic pieces of projection equipment available right now, that utilise one chip technology that will stand up to scrutiny in the years to come and will be acknowledged as being 'ahead of their time' and *still* more than competitive in terms of image quality. (there are several pieces of audio equipment that can easily achieved this status).


C) Are the levels of performance that we accept now as being 'peak performance' truly that? Or is our collective experience still so low, that we accept that performance as simply being the best available given known limitations (ie the Sony 10HT factor) and a general acceptance of a reduced ceiling level of performance?



Max Christoffersen
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Ahead of its time translates to next years bargain bin model...


None of these machines stand 'the test of time' in that way... The pace of evolution is too rapid...
 

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Eventually there will be no need for any electronics, as all entertainment will be biological. Induced virtual reality.....we'll be "tweakin" alright!
 

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See, I think history judges the great gadgets as great, even though they become obsolete.


* The first iPod will be judged as great.

* I judge my first Macintosh and my Powerbook 170 as great.

* The original Tivo will be judged as great even though someday the machine will have terabytes of storage, play music out of the box, etc. etc.

* VCR. Great....


.....


Single-chip DLP? Well, if they still make them in 2010 -- which is not improbable -- it earns a spot in the CE Hall of Fame.
 

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Quote:
A) Have we *today* reached a level of performance that introducing the reality of diminishing returns - ie (as is raised earlier in the thread), how much will we really need in the future that isn't provided by the stellar performers available right now; ie NEC HT1000/ JVC SX21?
No, something better is always around the corner and the people that like to live on the edge will go for it. And even if something is good enough that you don't need to upgrade, if it breaks or you need a second you will still go with something better

Quote:
B) Are there genuine classic pieces of projection equipment available right now, that utilise one chip technology that will stand up to scrutiny in the years to come and will be acknowledged as being 'ahead of their time' and *still* more than competitive in terms of image quality. (there are several pieces of audio equipment that can easily achieved this status).
No

Quote:
C) Are the levels of performance that we accept now as being 'peak performance' truly that? Or is our collective experience still so low, that we accept that performance as simply being the best available given known limitations (ie the Sony 10HT factor) and a general acceptance of a reduced ceiling level of performance?
for right now, yes, for tomorrow no.


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Quote:
See, I think history judges the great gadgets as great, even though they become obsolete.


* The first iPod will be judged as great.

* I judge my first Macintosh and my Powerbook 170 as great.

* The original Tivo will be judged as great even though someday the machine will have terabytes of storage, play music out of the box, etc. etc.

* VCR. Great....
that is just nostalgia. it is not the gadget that was great, but the years that have passed. It is you wanting your youth, not the gadget. Look at the people who build MAME machines or people that buy used arcades It is not that the games were that great or that there are not good games today. It is just that they want to play pac-man because it is associated with their youth and all the hours they played on it. If you give that person an equivalent game of the time that he never played the sentiment that it is worth something will not be there.
 

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Darin,


Let me know how the SX21 works out. At this point I'm just evaluating things and I'm leaning toward keeping my CRT and moving it to the new theater room. The only LCOS based projector I have seen is the Sony SXRD and it was very nice. If Sony does actually come through with an inexpensive SXRD based projector next year then it may sway me back to digital but at this point I can't see paying more than $7k for something that will not be as good as my XG.
 

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Anthony P: I don't think it's nostalgia. I think great products are great in their time and -- looking back -- are recalled as great.


Those MAME players know a dirty, little secret: The game of yesteryear didn't have great graphics or sound or enough storage to create massive environments. So they had to be great games to play. And they still hold up over time on that score.


Mark
 
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