AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
dear forum i am a newbie so please forgive my simple question.
i want to buy a dvd or blue ray recorder with a hard drive. i am not that bothered about the manufacturer as long as it's not panasonic.
i want a machine that is reasonably priced with a small hd that i can upgrade to the largest possible size. i know it seems impossible to find one with a external hdmi, god bless you sony :) but i would like to have a rgb input so i can record from other devices NOT composite. Do these machines exist any more ???? Thank you in advance for your time and patience.

scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,219 Posts
Sorry but you are way late to the party. The "age" of DVD Recorders is over. The last models since the DTV transition were the Magnavox units and it appears the last of their new stock is finally gone. What is available is on the secondary market for prices that way exceed the original purchase price and most of them are used.

No American models had BD burners, only DVD in standard definition. Aside from digital OTA or clear QAM tuners, the inputs were composite or S-video; component input was extremely rare in pre-digital days and non-existent post-digital; HDMI or rgb input was never. The Magnavox models with digital tuners had HDMI outputs. HDD's could be replaced on some but the name brands all had the size encoded in firmware so they could not be made larger. Magnavox allowed a modest increase, i.e. 500GB -> 1TB, for some models.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott McMahon

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,298 Posts
Do these machines exist any more ????
No, and as Kelson said, they never existed in the first place.

Only a tiny handful of early DVD recorders had RGB (component) input, and most of those models were so unreliable and poor video quality that little or nothing was gained by using their RGB inputs (aside from getting a true 16:9 widescreen signal recorded from decoder box outputs). In any case the signal recorded was standard definition.

After the mass market migrated to large HDTVs and digital broadcasting, it was game over for recorders. In North America, at least, most people were forced into cable or satellite subscription services because the off-air digital TV signal wasn't steady enough. Cable and satellite lock down their signals and shift their proprietary specs around so often that no independent recorder can keep up with them aside from TiVO (which has no inbuilt disc burning facility and no useful ability to patch into satellite).

No recorder sold by a recognizable brand name ever had HDMI inputs: the entire point of the HDMI standard is to prevent recording. DVD/HDD recorders had been such a colossal dud in North America that no mfr ever opted to market the followup BluRay/HDD recorders here. They were only available in Europe, Japan, Australia and NZ. None had external inputs that allowed recording in high definition from any source beyond a select few camcorders. The only high definition signal they could record was supplied by their inbuilt broadcast and satellite tuners. And, unfortunately for your stated preference, outside Japan the only serious seller of BluRay recorders was Panasonic. If you live in a country where they were available, you can still pick up a recent model second hand at reasonable cost. But I believe they were nearly all discontinued by 2017 (and models made after 2011 were widely panned as crippled garbage anyway).

If you're willing to pay the extravagant price, JVC made a pair of "professional" BD/HDD recorders with high definition external SDI inputs. If you throw enough money at aftermarket adapters and accessories, you could probably find a way to patch HDMI into that. But the recorder alone sold new for $3500: by the time you add in the necessary adapters it would be much more. And for all that money and effort, you'd still be stuck with a recorder made by JVC, who never mfd a disc recorder that didn't commit suicide the day after its warranty expired. Not a good bet.

In North America if you want to record high def off-air or cable TV signals, consider a TiVO which you can patch into your PC to make backup archives or disc conversions. Otherwise, everyone still interested in recording these days cobbles together some sort of entirely PC-based system. The rapid cultural shift to on-demand streaming has just about killed the market for recorders: most people wanted a recorder only for time-shifting, but with streaming you watch whatever, whereever, on a variety of devices. The notion of a personal library of recordings is on the verge of extinction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
thank you so much for your detailed advice and information. obviously it has not been cost effective to develop these recorders due both to copyright pressures, constrictions and the introduction of stream on demand services. guess they put the final nail in the coffin of video recorders. i agree that most that were available copied in very low resolution and never took advantage of using lossless compression such as h264 h265 and ended using up huge hard disk space that produced appalling picture quality........ they could have made a fantastic machine but it would have never got off the ground because the industry would have never have allowed it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,091 Posts
In North America if you want to record high def off-air or cable TV signals, consider a TiVO which you can patch into your PC to make backup archives or disc conversions.
When it comes to cable, that little quote above is were Americans differ from Canadians.

1) Cable companies in Canada don’t have to legally lease cable cards to subscribers and that makes TiVO useless to the majority of Canadian cable subscribers.

2) Because of the above cable companies in Canada are legally obligated to directly sell AND let electronic stores sell cable set top boxes including DVRs to subscribers. The subscriber even owns the cable card inside the STB but the cable company will not let you pair the cable card with a unit like TiVO and will of course deactivate your STB if you don’t pay your subscription bill.

3) With the outrages subscriber package fees most cable companies will not charge you any extra fee to run any STBs even STB DVRs on your package.

So the majority of Canadian cable subscribers about 99.9 percent do not own TiVO but own STBs they purchase and are free to re-sell on eBay, Craiglist or anywhere else. For building a PC based system most Canadian cable subscribers are forced to take the signal out of the STB and get a PC add-on like the Hauppauge recorder.

…using lossless compression such as h264 h265
Although more efficient than mpeg2 - transcoding to h264 or h265 is far from being lossless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,298 Posts
Cable companies in Canada don’t have to legally lease cable cards to subscribers and that makes TiVO useless to the majority of Canadian cable subscribers. [...]
Thanks for the detailed clarification of the Canadian cable situation. Strangely, before you made this post I don't think anyone else ever mentioned these differences between US and Canadian cable (at least, not on this recorder forum). Good to know: I'll refer back to your post in my replies to such questions in future.

Assuming, of course, we get any more such questions in future: they've tapered off quite a bit since 2012. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,091 Posts
I just rechecked the numbers and Canada’s 6th largest cable/sat/iptv co Cogeco is offering TiVO.

So the top 6 cable/sat/iptv companies represent 10,526,000 homes (there are only 35 million people in Canada) and out of that 10.5 million subscribers 738,000 have access to TiVO (assuming all Cogeco markets offer TiVo.)



Year 2017 numbers.

Source:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/431299/tv-subscribers-canada-corporation/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/cogeco-sees-payoff-with-tivo-as-rivals-start-launching-new-tv-platforms/article34639782/

You are correct CitiBear people not very active here at the DVDr forum anymore.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,493 Posts
In Northern Ontario(Thunder Bay and North around the lake to the Sault) I've only seen Rogers, Shaw and Bell. I'm sure Toronto has more choices :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
paraphrased (by jwillis84)
1. i want a dvd recorder that uses a hard drive
2. i am not bothered about the manufacturer
3. i want a machine that is reasonably priced
4. i want a machine that is upgradable
5. i want external hdmi input
6. i want external rgb input
7. do these machines exist?

scott
yes, without the dvd burner.. DM295 .. and it comes with a remote
it works okay standalone, but the pc drivers don't work and its kind of flimsy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,298 Posts
paraphrased (by jwillis84) yes, without the dvd burner.. DM295 .. and it comes with a remote
Looks more interesting than usual, tho remains yet another of the many nameless "here today, gone tomorrow" Chinese wonder boxes (that inevitably disappoint American buyers looking for a cheap TiVO knockoff with no fees).

More complete info and specs can be (momentarily) found here.

Whether or not you'd find it a suitable candidate to replace an aging DVD/HDD recorder depends on your priorities and intended usage. Like all such similar boxes, it has no tuner, so forget off-air unless you hook up an external tuner. It has the (industry unsupported) HDMI recording feature, but the spec sheet is coy on whether it honors HDCP from cable/satellite outputs (if it does, you'll need additional accessories). The timer is for one event only (one-shot or repeating): no multi-event time shifting is possible. HDD is not built in: per usual, you'll have an external USB drive hanging off the thing. It has a remote, but its primarily to make settings and for simple playback of recordings (you cannot remote-control-edit HDD videos ala DVD/HDD recorders). All editing and disc burning is done externally via the bundled PC software suite.

For certain specialized purposes this type of unit far exceeds the capabilities of a DVD/HDD recorder, but for mundane convenient day-to-day time shifting and archiving to disc it falls far short. Everything today does, really: the DVD/HDD recorder was the high water mark for consumer standalone video devices. Unfortunately, DVD/HDD is a relic of the analog broadcasting era (at least in North America). For our current digital HDTV age, there is nothing similar: not even the followup BluRay/HDD recorders sold in Europe/Asia were as convenient as DVD/HDD (the BluRay units were choked with additional restrictions and functional limitations). Today and in future, its roll-your-own: full-on PC solutions, or hybrid PC+ sketchy no-name Chinese recorder box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,219 Posts
yet another of the many nameless "here today, gone tomorrow" Chinese wonder boxes (that inevitably disappoint American buyers looking for a cheap TiVO knockoff with no fees).
You hit that nail square on the head. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
I've never paid for TV. Never. Going on 40 yrs. I remember when there were no commercials between movies. And definitely no commercials during movies. HBO, Cinemax, etc was all the rage and it was cool. But that was short-lived, fees went up, commercials were introduced and introduced.....and introduced. I was a rebel: OTA Only!

I rented VHS, then Laserdiscs, then DVD's. Then my local library began stocking DVD's for free borrowing. If they didn't have it, they'd either borrow it or buy it. Worked for me. Now with 'streaming' in vogue, the cable/sat conglomerates (ATTTIMEWARNERCOMCAST) are suffering due to "cord cutting" being in vogue. Millions have JUST SAID NO to escalating fees, lousy CS and paying for dozens upon dozens of junk channels they never watch.

There is much to watch on-line even with my rather slow 6 Mb/sec ADSL. I can also watch Austrailian, European, Swedish TV stations, movies, sports without paying anything. Period. Further the technology exists to record any video playing on a screen. That's easy.

Welcome To The New World Order!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,298 Posts
Welcome To The New World Order!
Yes, well, not everyone is entirely thrilled with it. As with every sea change, there are good and bad points.

First, "cutting the cord" sounds like you're really sticking it to the man, but the reality for most consumers in North America is more akin to "meet the new boss- same as the old boss". Independent cheap DSL service thru the local phone company is disappearing almost as quickly as dvd recorders. As Verizon inevitably wraps up its decade-long push to permanently deactivate its century-old copper wiring landline infrastructure, more and more households are being forced to give up standard landline/DSL service and choose between a FiOS Trojan Horse option from the "neu" phone company, or migrate over to a cableco phone/internet package. Lucky stragglers who still have phone company DSL service should think twice before bragging about cord cutting: you'll be joining us here in cableco billing hell soon enough. One way or another, by 2020 every web user in USA will be lining the pockets of Verizon FiOS, Spectrum, Charter, Optimum, ComCast or ATT Uverse. Doesn't matter that you valiantly resist taking the TV part of the package: after the initial promo deal, the rate is the same whether you take the TV service or not, so the point is moot. Cord-cutting (in the defiant sense people think it exists) will be an extremely short-lived phenomenon.

Second, the "new world order" is a freaking PITA to those of us who were perfectly happy in the old world order. Not everyone is overjoyed by the performance of streaming services, and the decadent convenience of armchair remote-control editing on a standalone integrated recording device is now gone forever: a serious loss. Perhaps this is a generational thing: if you were born with an iPhone in your hand, odds are you have no problem gluing your face to a computer screen 24/7. Those of us who remember the Jurassic Era get a little fed up with computer screen domination during the workday, and like to chill out with a more distant, larger TV screen when it comes to media manipulation. The idea of having to sit at yet another PC to capture a stream (that wasn't meant to be captured BTW), edit the commercials with software, then convert it to something archivable, is not as appealing to some of us as the old dvd/hdd recorder paradigm.

It isn't that we're luddites: we understand the simple workflow of off-air VCR or DVD recorder is gone forever, and we need to move on. Most of us already have. We just don't particularly enjoy the new paradigm as much you do: for many of us, literally the only solid improvement we got out of it is HDTV video quality. The rest is a wash at best, and bitterly disappointing at worst. And in the long run, it continues to backfire on Hollywood: witness the explosion in popularity of the "scene" exchanges. As convenient personal recording options are eliminated, more and more people jump on the "scene" bandwagon to bypass all the new hurdles and get straight to their desired end result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Yes, well, not everyone is entirely thrilled with it. As with every sea change, there are good and bad points..
I agree with much of what you have written CB. I'm nearing 60 myself and have seen a lot of changes. Change for change sake is never a good idea.

I have lots of hobbies and interests: woodworking, cooking, astronomy, sailing, kayaking, electronics repair & restoration, audio & acoustics, writing, in addition to I enjoy reading. I do like movies and British mystery programs. In other words, getting home and turning on the TV isn't my first priority. I usually turn on music instead and listen while doing something else.

I don't qualify as a 'cord-cutter': I've never had one to cut. The amount of $$$ + taxes + fees/month they asked for was too much and better spent elsewhere. Over the last couple of decades though OTA TV has been heavily de-contented. Particularly sports. "Sunday Night Movies" are long gone as well.

I'm all too familiar with fighting rATT, their 'plans' and lousy customer service. It's ridiculous what they charge for ADSL. In addition to them confusing 'bits' vs 'bytes' and answering questions I did not ask, they indeed want me to give it up for their u-verse service, (still delivered via 50yr old copper BTW. No fiber-to-the-curb in my neighborhood). Problem is UV is already on its way out as well, according to an article I read a few years back.

I have indeed checked the rates and TV service adds at least $50/mo + taxes to the deal even after the 'teaser' 12-month period expires. This is for the lowest 300-channel 'package'. Dealing/negotiating/paying rATT is a RPITA so I'm not scot-free by any means. Further, my decades old landline number is now heavily targeted by robocalls; of which rATT is impotent to do anything about...in 2018!

We agree the 'new world order' is a RPITA. I was being sarcastic.

I wish I had caught on to DVD/HDD recorders much earlier than I did. I found the first about 7 yrs ago in a garage sale for $10. I had to use an external tuner to record OTA. Otherwise it works fine. Later I picked up a unit with an internal HDD for about the same price. Both are still in use, the later after an recent extensive repair. We're definitely getting screwed in the USA by not being allowed to buy the newer units. That's nuts...

No social media here; no 'smart' phone either; I'm too old for that generation, but most around me have been absorbed into the 24/7 media collective and panic at the thought of being DISCONNECTED. I'm no luddite. I'm a EE. While comfortable with technology 99% of people don't understand, I also don't allow it dominate my life. I'm not an addict and can say NO by setting limits. Most are unable to now as they're now addicts. I'd never allow a child of mine to have these devices until much older. Their brain needs time to develop WITHOUT them to prevent them from becoming and growing up, addicted.

Very rare is there a movie hollywood produces that I'm interested in now. There's just no there, there. CGI for the sake of itself and to compensate for a lousy story-line to begin with is like eating five pounds of cotton candy expecting sustainence. Hollywood is only brain-food for the brainless: The "old days" are long gone and the kids are largely clueless.

At 88, Clint Eastwood is still in the game and doing an excellent job. He would definitely draw me to the theater or to borrow a DVD from the library.

I still use old CRT TV's as well. They still work, have excellent blacks, no moving image artifacts, much less artifacts period. When something goes wrong, I fix them. I recently tried to fix a large Samsung LCD. It began arcing at only 2 yrs old: A 42" ozone generator! A neighbor was going to trash it. I took it all apart to see how they were built and to learn about the technology. Not easily serviced. No schematics nor service manuals available. $450+ tax down the drain. The LCD was burned-in already by network icons too. It's just junk. I repaired one section only to discover another preventing the OS from booting. That's just nuts.

I have the skill to repair damn near anything. But even I tire of it in our modern age. It just wears on you....

So I often retreat to the Analog Domain: go on a bike ride, kayak, gaze at the Moon & planets, woodwork, walk a dog, read a paper book, lay in the Sun and do nothing....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,886 Posts
Wow, you guys hit it right at home!
Yeah I remember how I thought what a great deal when AT&T gave me an offer for cheap internet for a year to make the switch to U-Verse. And then the price escalated and no turning back to total wireline. The so-called 'loyalty' (or retention) program for my decades of loyal service is rapidly disintegrating in usefulness [this last one became a 'package' deal for a one size fits all speed, in which they also sneaked in a hike to the modem 'rental' fee despite the rep. telling me there wasn't one in the 'package']. Now it appears my neighborhood is transitioning to fiber all the way to the home - can't wait for this price hike for speed I don't need! Hey, gotta keep up with cable!

OTA-only TV 60 year old EE
 
  • Like
Reactions: CitiBear

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,219 Posts
Technology marches on. :)

However, nothing follows the market closer than tech-toys. Something new is always being introduced so as soon as consumer demand for a tech-toy slacks, it is dumped like a hot coal. Once consumers start to move on from an old toy to a new one, it's irreversible -- the old toy is dead. There is no profit in pushing a toy with negative growth prospects. Video disk recorders were just a perturbation of video tape recorders which were already on the way out. Tape recorders had a pretty long run. The age of disk recorders was comparatively short and ended at the DTV transition. The market was left to bottom-feeder funai who basically sold the same recorder for the next 10 yr -- putting out a cosmetic "upgrade" every few years to make consumers think a new model was released.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting to hold onto the old ways. They just don't amount to a market worth considering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CitiBear

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,298 Posts
Wow, the price for a refurbished Sanyo at a place that has good deals! Yeah a Sanyo. Playing the lack of supply and [small] unique demand.
Yikes! And the only reason they even found some leftover stock of the Sanyo is nobody ever knew it existed. The volume seller, and most popular version (by far) of this chassis was the Toshiba, followed in distant second place by Magnavox. Bringing up an obscure third place was a version with Funai's own name on it, a late entry marketed primarily thru catalog vendors and QVC. The Sanyo was dumped onto the market without so much as a cursory product announcement: if you didn't happen to be perusing a random vendor site like 220electronics on a particular day they had one, you never heard of it. Last time I checked a year or so ago, the only remaining Sanyo sellers were random dubious fly-by-night sites so blatantly sleazy I wouldn't chance buying a $10 toaster from them.

Fry's must have located a pallet somewhere and decided it might profitable to try and placate the occasional Rip Van Winkle retail customers who (astonishingly) still haven't realized VHS transfer units are about as viable today as CED videodisc players: good luck finding decent hardware at an affordable price. Have these people been in "The Leftovers" alternate universe for the past 15 years? How do they not know this? And what suddenly prompts them to rub their eyes NOW and notice their dusty VHS shelves? Why not five years ago? ten years ago?

:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,886 Posts
Oh man, Lol CitiBear!

And Sanyo is a brand I've always perceived as El Cheapo. Economy South Korean? Do you think they're based on one of those three chassis?

Whenever I see anything DVDR-ish for sale it's some ridiculous price. I guess they think their sitting on gold doubloons.

I stumbled across this article for anyone interested:

https://www.lifewire.com/disappearing-dvd-recorder-1846591
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top