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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Getting a DVD recorder has reopened my eyes to the glory of my laserdisc collection, especially music concert laserdiscs. My 520 is being put to work making backups of valuable concert LDs that I fear may suffer laser rot, and due to the inevitable breakdown (I hope not for a long time) of my LD players. Using a Pioneer Elite 99, the top of the line best domestic LD player ever made, with its 3-D comb filter. Too bad I can't input the PCM digital stereo signal directly into the DVD recorder to preserve that glorious digital PCM stereo sound. So far, Frank Sinatra Live in Japan, Billy Joel Live on Long Island, Elton John Live in Central Park, Rush Grace Under Pressure, The Who Rocks America (superior Japanese edition--incredible), Dire Straits On the Night (awesome awesome concert), Eric Clapton Live on Whistle Test 1977, Blood, Sweat and Tears in Little Club, Doobie Bros Live in Santa Barbara, among others, all look and sound great at FINE speed recorded in PCM stereo. No artifacts or problems so far, other than a slight tendency of the 520H to darken the picture a bit so I am still experimenting with tweaking the settings. Despite that quibble, the black level is outstanding on the 520, providing very deep blacks that really make good concert recordings shine. And I get to rewatch all these awesome concerts--only several hundred more to go! So far the DVDs look like clones of the originals.


And the next project--to the SVHS vaults and begin transferring concerts and music on tape from over the years--begininng with the HBO initial Rock and Roll Hall of Fame concert from 1995 (one of the most amazing live concerts ever) and my live PPV multitape recording of Woodstock 1994, as well as dozens and dozens of Sessions at West 54th, Austin City Limits, Soundstage etc. Great stuff.
 

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Squonk,


I've been doing a similar project with my S-VHS and laser disc collection over the past couple of years with my Panasonic E-80. We have similar musical tastes and if interested please pm me if you'd like to possibly discuss our collections. I'd love to get a copy of The Who Rocks America (Japanese Laser Disc).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Misencik
Squonk,


I've been doing a similar project with my S-VHS and laser disc collection over the past couple of years with my Panasonic E-80. We have similar musical tastes and if interested please pm me if you'd like to possibly discuss our collections. I'd love to get a copy of The Who Rocks America (Japanese Laser Disc).
I will do so. Always interested in discussing music, laserdiscs etc.
 

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My first laser to DVD conversion will be the the Who's 30 Years of Maximum R&B, a DVD that is no longer available.

Have you tried both the composite and S-Video from the laser and can you confirm which gave the best results? What settings did you use on Pioneer?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnycrest
Have you tried both the composite and S-Video from the laser and can you confirm which gave the best results? What settings did you use on Pioneer?
It may depend on the model of laserdisc player. If you have one of the Elite series it may have a better comb filter than your recorder so using S-video could be better. Otherwise you may be better off using composite video and let the recorder's comb filter do the job.


By the way, I agree that the Dire Straits On The Night concert is a superb concert laserdisc. Last week I copied it to DVD with the help of my Pioneer recorder. But then I took the disc to my computer and used an authoring application that lets me put the song titles at each chapter in a chapter menu.


Squonk, are you saying you record at the Fine mode so you'll have PCM audio? What do you do with concerts longer than one hour - burn multiple DVDs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
It may depend on the model of laserdisc player. If you have one of the Elite series it may have a better comb filter than your recorder so using S-video could be better. Otherwise you may be better off using composite video and let the recorder's comb filter do the job.


By the way, I agree that the Dire Straits On The Night concert is a superb concert laserdisc. Last week I copied it to DVD with the help of my Pioneer recorder. But then I took the disc to my computer and used an authoring application that lets me put the song titles at each chapter in a chapter menu.


Squonk, are you saying you record at the Fine mode so you'll have PCM audio? What do you do with concerts longer than one hour - burn multiple DVDs?
I am still experimenting with both composite and S video, but from what I have seen so far, the S video from my Pioneer Elite 99 is a little sharper than the composite signal, although the difference is not huge. The 99 has a 3D comb filter which was state of the art in domestic laserdisc players in the mid 90's.


I am recording the concert backup copies in Fine mode to get the best possible picture and sound quality. Unfortunately that does mean 2 discs for concerts over 1.5 hours. For concerts between 1 hour and 1.5 I'm going to use the flexible/optimize record option to get the best possible quality. Since I am regarding these as backups in case my laserdisc players eventually go down, I wanted to preserve the best possible quality, esp for purposes of making dupe copies down the road.

I probably was not clear on the PCM audio. Obviously going from LD to DVD there is unfortunately no way to input the PCM digital bitstream, so the recordings are in stereo, not digital stereo. Wish there was a recorder with a digital input--maybe the HD recorders when they come out will have that option.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk
I am still experimenting with both composite and S video, but from what I have seen so far, the S video from my Pioneer Elite 99 is a little sharper than the composite signal, although the difference is not huge. The 99 has a 3D comb filter which was state of the art in domestic laserdisc players in the mid 90's.


I am recording the concert backup copies in Fine mode to get the best possible picture quality. Unfortunately that does mean 2 discs for concerts over 1.5 hours. For concerts between 1 hour and 1.5 I'm going to use the flexible/optimize record option to get the best possible quality. Since I am regarding these as backups in case my laserdisc players eventually go down, I wanted to preserve the best possible quality, esp for purposes of making dupe copies down the road.

I probably was not clear on the PCM audio. Obviously going from LD to DVD there is unfortunately no way to input the PCM digital bitstream, so the recordings are in stereo, not digital stereo. Wish there was a recorder with a digital input--maybe the HD recorders when they come out will have that option.
On the 533, the best quality is XP (1 hour length), and then you have a choice of having SAP or an enhanced LPCM for audio. LPCM audio sounds great, and is a big improvement over the standard audio for XP. You may want to see if the 520 has something comparable.
 

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The 520 automatically uses LPCM when recording in the Fine mode which is now called XP on the 533/633. All other recording modes use AC-3 audio.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
The 520 automatically uses LPCM when recording in the Fine mode which is now called XP on the 533/633. All other recording modes use AC-3 audio.
I know the 520 records in LPCM stereo at Fine, and I do use that mode for all music recording, but am I preserving the LPCM digital audio bitstream from laserdisc when the audio inputs are RCA cable left and right? I would think I am only getting analog stereo when making the DVD copies of the laserdisc.
 

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As long as you're using the Fine mode for recording there is little, if any, loss of audio quality recording from the LD. This is because the audio remains fully uncompressed as it passes through the digital to analog converter on the LD player and the analog-to-digital converter on the recorder. You also should get the Dolby Surround (but not the 5.1 AC-3 surround the is on a few LDs) because that's simply part of the two digital audio channels.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
The 520 automatically uses LPCM when recording in the Fine mode which is now called XP on the 533/633. All other recording modes use AC-3 audio.
Not quite right, HealeyGuy. On the 53_/633, LPCM mode is simply LPCM mode. Although it is listed between XP AND XP+ on the manual's Manual Recording Modes chart, it is not XP(MN32). LPCM mode has the video quality equivalent of MN29, I believe. LPCM and XP are similar in that both provide for 61 minutes of recording on a single layer DVD.


Squonk, if you are recording between 1 and 1 1/2 hours per disc, you are not recording in LPCM mode.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by longplay
Not quite right, HealeyGuy. On the 53_/633, LPCM mode is simply LPCM mode. Although it is listed between XP AND XP+ on the manual's Manual Recording Modes chart, it is not XP(MN32). LPCM mode has the video quality equivalent of MN29, I believe. LPCM and XP are similar in that both provide for 61 minutes of recording on a single layer DVD.


Squonk, if you are recording between 1 and 1 1/2 hours per disc, you are not recording in LPCM mode.
Yes, this is why I mentioned it. If he's recording for more than an hour, he is not getting LPCM. But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that XP and LPCM are the same bit rate. The difference is you sacrifice SAP if you use LPCM, i.e., the SAP bandwidth is used for LPCM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by longplay
Not quite right, HealeyGuy. On the 53_/633, LPCM mode is simply LPCM mode. Although it is listed between XP AND XP+ on the manual's Manual Recording Modes chart, it is not XP(MN32). LPCM mode has the video quality equivalent of MN29, I believe. LPCM and XP are similar in that both provide for 61 minutes of recording on a single layer DVD.


Squonk, if you are recording between 1 and 1 1/2 hours per disc, you are not recording in LPCM mode.
Longplay, yes I know that I only get LPCM in Fine mode. I have not had this come up yet, but I'll have to make a decision on a concert which is, say, 1 hour and 10 minutes long; optimal record to one disc to maximize video quality but lose LPCM, or spread on 2 discs and waste some disc space (or fill it with other video, maybe of the same band). The 520 gives you LPCM at the highest setting (FINE, ie MN 32). So it looks like that is another change in the 31/33 series if what you are saying is true that you only get MN29 quality. I thought they kept that at MN32, ie XP.


Healeyguy--well I guess if I am still getting uncompressed audio at FINE then I'm doing the right thing recording these in FINE mode. I was thinking that since there is no actual coaxial or optical digital INPUT like a AV reciever has, I was not really able to keep the audio in full uncompressed mode when it re-encoded. The audio has sounded great on the transfers thus far.
 

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Sqounk - I am not that familiar with the 520, so Healeyguy will please correct me if what I am about to say is wrong. You should record in FINE only, because audio is such a high priority for you. The total bandwidth or bit rate is the same for fine as it is for xp, as is the length of time per disc. Fine takes a larger portion of the bitrate for the LPCM audio than it would for the AC3 audio of XP. ThiS downgrades the video quality at FINE to the video equivalent of MN29. You can't have your cake and eat it too. But practically speaking, from your posts I am sure that you would appreciate the improved audio more than you would dislike MN29 video quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by longplay
Sqounk - I am not that familiar with the 520, so Healeyguy will please correct me if what I am about to say is wrong. You should record in FINE only, because audio is such a high priority for you. The total bandwidth or bit rate is the same for fine as it is for xp, as is the length of time per disc. Fine takes a larger portion of the bitrate for the LPCM audio than it would for the AC3 audio of XP. ThiS downgrades the video quality at FINE to the video equivalent of MN29. You can't have your cake and eat it too. But practically speaking, from your posts I am sure that you would appreciate the improved audio more than you would dislike MN29 video quality.
Hmm, I think you're wrong about the video quality being downgraded from MN32 to MN29, at least on the 520. The 520 manual specifically says that LPCM audio is recorded at FINE, ie MN32 mode only. You get the best video quality with the best audio quality. So I am getting my cake and eating it too. The tradeoff is you can only get 1 hour on a disc, because of the bitrates the best modes use. I posted about this topic before when I was trying to decide on a recorder. I was tempted by the Toshiba XS34 because you can apparantly get LPCM mode on a lot more video quality settings on that.


If the new Pioneers are only letting you record LPCM at MN29 mode, that is yet ANOTHER step backward in user freindliness for the new Pios.


And again, because I am making backup copies, I am recording everything in FINE, even if it spreads the concert to 2 discs. Like I said, the hard ones will be concerts of barely over an hour, but since Healeyguy has assured me I am still getting uncompressed audio, I will probably spread those to 2 discs also, or look for other related material to tag onto the second disc to fill it out.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk
Hmm, I think you're wrong about the video quality being downgraded from MN32 to MN29, at least on the 520. The 520 manual specifically says that LPCM audio is recorded at FINE, ie MN32 mode only. You get the best video quality with the best audio quality. So I am getting my cake and eating it too. The tradeoff is you can only get 1 hour on a disc, because of the bitrates the best modes use. I posted about this topic before when I was trying to decide on a recorder. I was tempted by the Toshiba XS34 because you can apparantly get LPCM mode on a lot more video quality settings on that.


If the new Pioneers are only letting you record LPCM at MN29 mode, that is yet ANOTHER step backward in user freindliness for the new Pios.


And again, because I am making backup copies, I am recording everything in FINE, even if it spreads the concert to 2 discs. Like I said, the hard ones will be concerts of barely over an hour, but since Healeyguy has assured me I am still getting uncompressed audio, I will probably spread those to 2 discs also, or look for other related material to tag onto the second disc to fill it out.


The 533 manual states on page 51 that LPCM is recorded at XP quality.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk
Hmm, I think you're wrong about the video quality being downgraded from MN32 to MN29, at least on the 520. The 520 manual specifically says that LPCM audio is recorded at FINE, ie MN32 mode only. You get the best video quality with the best audio quality. So I am getting my cake and eating it too. The tradeoff is you can only get 1 hour on a disc, because of the bitrates the best modes use. I posted about this topic before when I was trying to decide on a recorder. I was tempted by the Toshiba XS34 because you can apparantly get LPCM mode on a lot more video quality settings on that.


If the new Pioneers are only letting you record LPCM at MN29 mode, that is yet ANOTHER step backward in user freindliness for the new Pios.


And again, because I am making backup copies, I am recording everything in FINE, even if it spreads the concert to 2 discs. Like I said, the hard ones will be concerts of barely over an hour, but since Healeyguy has assured me I am still getting uncompressed audio, I will probably spread those to 2 discs also, or look for other related material to tag onto the second disc to fill it out.
Sorry, Squonk, but that is just not possible. There is only so many bits on a single layer disc - that is a constant. PCM audio uses more bits than AC3 - that is a fact. Assuming FINE provides the same 61 minutes per disc as XP - then the extra bitrate required for LPCM, instead of AC3, must come at the expense of the video quality. That leaves you with a video quality in FINE or LPCM EQUIVALENT TO THAT OF MN29. If FINE were able to come with XP video quality, then a single layer dvd disc would be full in less than 61 minutes (EDIT - it would be full in 55 minutes). There is no free lunch with the 520.

I can understand your confusion, because the 520 manual is very misleading in this regard. Even the 53_/633 manual, which attempts to clarify this, is still confusing.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by probepro
The 533 manual states on page 51 that LPCM is recorded at XP quality.
Yes it does. LOL

Pioneer thinks about video quality in terms of time not bitrate. All they are saying in that footnote is that LPCM will give you 61 minutes on a single layer disc.
 

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Below is a similar discussion from last month:


07-26-05, 12:33 PM #24 (Print)

longplay

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: US

Posts: 194 Quote:

Originally Posted by jhb50

Longplay I was quoting footnote 1 on your page 52 (Version B manual) I have (version A which has this on page 51 :)

I found the bit rates in a review of the Pioneer 3100 so I assume quoted from that european manual. See Attached file.


I must have been asleep..Let me try what you said..subtract the bit rate for LCPM from AC3


The Toshiba chart shows that a one hour LCPM has an 8.0 bit rate for video alone, and a one hour AC3 video has a bit rate of 9.2 for video alone.. so AC3 - LCPM = 9.2-8.0 = 1.2 bps extra for LCPM .


Now The Pioneer chart shows 10.08 Total MPBS for FINE(MN32 Mode)with AC3 so subtract the 1.2 needed to sipport LCPM and get 8.88mbps which corresponds to how much Video plus the AC3 portion of Audio there would be in a 1 hour LCPM recording. So if we look at the Pioneer chart and find the MN Mode equivalent to 8.88 we find MN 30 = 8.89 Video + AC3.


So do you think this is valid?




Eureka! I believe you've got it.


And what a pleasant surprise to larn that the Pioneer's LPCM mode has a video quality equivalent to MN30.


I understand the Toshiba XS34 has LPCM modes for durations longer than 1 hour. That will work nicely up to a point
 

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From European Pioneer 3100


EP 360 min 1.73 Mbps Dolby Digital 2.0

MN02 345 min 1.80 Mbps

MN03 330 min 1.89 Mbps

MN04 315 min 1.98 Mbps

MN05 300 min 2.08 Mbps

MN06 285 min 2.18 Mbps

MN07 270 min 2.31 Mbps

MN08 255 min 2.44 Mbps

LP 240 min 2.59 Mbps

MN10 230 min 2.71 Mbps

MN11 220 min 2.83 Mbps

MN12 210 min 2.96 Mbps

MN13 200 min 3.11 Mbps

MN14 190 min 3.28 Mbps

MN15 180 min 3.46 Mbps

MN16 170 min 3.66 Mbps

MN17 160 min 3.89 Mbps

MN18 150 min 4.15 Mbps

MN19 140 min 4.45 Mbps

MN20 130 min 4.79 Mbps

SP 120 min 5.19 Mbps

MN22 110 min 5.66 Mbps

MN23 105 min 5.93 Mbps

MN24 100 min 6.22 Mbps

MN25 95 min 6.55 Mbps

MN26 90 min 6.92 Mbps

MN27 85 min 7.32 Mbps

MN28 80 min 7.78 Mbps

MN29 75 min 8.30 Mbps

MN30 70 min 8.89 Mbps

MN31 65 min 9.58 Mbps

FINE 61 min 10.08 Mbps LPCM
 
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