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One thing that was obvious at CES this year is many companies took their technology to new levels.


Pioneer went to +20,000:1 from 4000:1 with their plasmas. And others had similar improvements.


TI went to 100,000:1 in their rear projection unit.


Sony went to +1,000,000:1 with their OLED displays


and JVC went to 15:000:1 from about 2000:1 with their front projectors. This is the new bar.


My question is how will other technologies trump this in front projection? Can we go to 30,000:1? 50,000? or even 100,000:1? I think it's possible but how will we get there and will it be meaningful? I personally think this step up to 15000:1 native contrast is major improvement for front projection and look forward to further improvements.


How will we get there?
 

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A Dynamic Iris is indeed one way to get there but it's really only good in fade to black scenes. Even side by side with the native RS1 the Sony at 15:000:1 with a DI didn't match up. All scenes with this native contast looked fabulous. Even black scenes. Although the two may have came to the same numbers with a measuring instrument, your eyes tell a different story. It's obvious the DI cuts light output and when light levels stay the same you know it.
 

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I'm OK with 15000:1 native.

I'm OK with 500-700 lumens.

I'm OK with 1080p.

2000 hour bulb life though, with half the lumens gone before the half-way mark, that's just wrong.

Next level needs to be LED illumination, or LASER illumination, or SOMETHING that lasts 10,000-20,000 hours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree more lumen output would be embraced. Especially by me!


I'm wondering if we can find a new way to measure percieved contrast or contrast with light output measurement.


I find way more percieved contrast or "punch" with a high gain screen. Take the same projector and shoot it at a gray screen then at a 2.5 gain screen. Measured contrast ratio hasn't changed. But the brighter image definately gives more percieved contrast to the eyes. This can be equal or more than perfectly masking your screen with black borders or painting your room black.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/0


A Dynamic Iris is indeed one way to get there but it's really only good in fade to black scenes. Even side by side with the native RS1 the Sony at 15:000:1 with a DI didn't match up. All scenes with this native contast looked fabulous. Even black scenes. Although the two may have came to the same numbers with a measuring instrument, your eyes tell a different story. It's obvious the DI cuts light output and when light levels stay the same you know it.

This is what both Ted White and Chris Collins said abouit the first DI a couple of years ago.


I wish I knew how they will get there, I'm just glad they are going there.I'm incredibly happy that the manufacturers have chosen to get the most image depth they can as their latest goal. It's been my opinion for a long time that digital projection looked flat and we all knew why.
 

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Quote:
will it be meaningful?

I think it will be meaningful, for some people. CRTs as quantified by darin can hit the high 6-figures pushing towards 1,000,000:1 on/off CR and the screen is not completely black on a full black frame except when plunging to black and even still only for several seconds. So I do think that for some viewers who appreciate this kind of thing, these improvements will be meaningful.
 

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FYI:


Samsung showed a 100,000:1 LED backlight LCD much like Brightsides' approach at CES. They dubbed it "LED Local Dimming". It was impressive even under the harsh lighting of the convention floor.


(Sorry for the crappy pic but it's from my cell phone.)

 

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Tryg

To be fair the LED dlp rptv will be good with FTB but the native contrast won´t be 100000:1. The native contrast is probably more like 5000:1.


Dual modulation or emissive displays is IT

Emissive

SED and OLED are great at 100000:1+

Plasma is improving at 20000:1

CRT

Anything that can be turned off has the potential for infinite on/off.


Dual modulation

The first step was DI. This is proving a stop gap on the road to better things. Non emissive displays with 100000:1 will be difficult to manufacture. The solution is simple. Put light modulators in a series configuration. Both can be at the full resolution or you can have one with a lower resolution.

Brightside

Low res LED matrix + flat panel lcd

SEOS

rgbk 4-panel lcos light engine 500000:1


What I do not understand is Sharp´s Megacontrast lcd. How is this possible with a non emissive solution.


What I think many are looking forward to is

1000-2000 ANSI lumen

non lamp light source

dual modulation beyond DI, ex. 4-panel lcos

A good color management system
 

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"I'm wondering if we can find a new way to measure percieved contrast or contrast with light output measurement."


I propose a pj figure of merit CL which is CR x L = clumens


The issue of the either CR or L, but not both at the same time could be addressed by specifying that CL only be stated for a single setting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson /forum/post/0


Tryg


What I do not understand is Sharp´s Megacontrast lcd. How is this possible with a non emissive solution.

There's no reason contrast and gray scale cant be widened through processing...before the device
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/0


A Dynamic Iris is indeed one way to get there but it's really only good in fade to black scenes. Even side by side with the native RS1 the Sony at 15:000:1 with a DI didn't match up. All scenes with this native contast looked fabulous. Even black scenes. Although the two may have came to the same numbers with a measuring instrument, your eyes tell a different story. It's obvious the DI cuts light output and when light levels stay the same you know it.

If think a DI would work well with the JVC. With real 15000:1 you still have hazy dark scenes in a bat cave. Just fewer of them than with less CR or DI a la Pearl. Since 15000:1 is pretty high the DI has only to deal with relatively few cases where haze is an issue. For all the others there is enough APL to make the eye think it sees black when it's gray. So you can use a rather non agressive DI for these cases. And many of these cases probably have a max luminance
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/0


One thing that was obvious at CES this year is many companies took their technology to new levels.


Pioneer went to +20,000:1 from 4000:1 with their plasmas. And others had similar improvements.


TI went to 100,000:1 in their rear projection unit.


Sony went to +1,000,000:1 with their OLED displays


and JVC went to 15:000:1 from about 2000:1 with their front projectors. This is the new bar.


My question is how will other technologies trump this in front projection? Can we go to 30,000:1? 50,000? or even 100,000:1? I think it's possible but how will we get there and will it be meaningful? I personally think this step up to 15000:1 native contrast is major improvement for front projection and look forward to further improvements.


How will we get there?

Its always humorous that when companies do not have any new products they show some prototype that may never see the light of day. Or cost $70,000.

Like Panasonic 1080p plasma. Now we can add TI to the list. Toshiba just dumped SED after many years of hype. OLED is for for expensive car displays.
 

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"There's no reason contrast and gray scale cant be widened through processing...before the device"


If that were true there would be plenty of 100K:1 pj's out there.


You can process all the CR into the signal you want, but all you'll get out of the dispaly device is what it's capable of.
 

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Isn´t it also a good way to boost ANSI to have the projectors brighter. That way people can pair them with grey ANSI boosting screens.
 

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Reincarnate...


SED is not dead. Toshiba didn't dump SED, Canon had to dump Toshiba. The delay on SED production has been related to Canon building out production capability AND a fight over a license agreement. There's a technology that Canon is licensing for use in SED and the agreement did not allow for Canon to share the licnese with any partners. The owners of the technology wouldn't budge and Canon had to buy out Toshiba's interest before it could bring SED to market.


BTW...we own two Pioneer Pro-FHD1's and are awaiting installation of our Meridian MF-1 in our new dedicated theater. Therefore, I have no real interest in when SED is released, but just wanted to set the facts straight.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/0


I agree more lumen output would be embraced. Especially by me!


I'm wondering if we can find a new way to measure percieved contrast or contrast with light output measurement.


I find way more percieved contrast or "punch" with a high gain screen. Take the same projector and shoot it at a gray screen then at a 2.5 gain screen. Measured contrast ratio hasn't changed. But the brighter image definately gives more percieved contrast to the eyes. This can be equal or more than perfectly masking your screen with black borders or painting your room black.

i fully agree !! high gain screen gives way more punch than a projector with 40% more lumens on a 1.0 screen

BUT !!!!!!! the real problem with high gain are :

- with microperforation you see too much the screen, the paint

- with high gain the source noise is more visible !


very unfortunately so.


it's a real dilemna. and unsolved so far.
 
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