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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my opinion, one of the more overused phrases in this forum is "night and day."


Thinking about this, what people mean is that the difference is dramatic as night and day. The implication is that it's as easy to tell the audio difference, as it is to be able to tell the difference between night and day.


To me that implies that most people can tell the difference, and very quickly.


Let's take a statement like 'I bought amplifier XYZ' and when compared to amplifier 'ABC' and the difference was night and day.


Taking that statement at face value, nearly everyone could tell the difference, tell it immediately and be able to do this consistently without knowing which amplifier was connected.


Yet, people have regularly failed to be able to tell amplifiers apart in listening tests. I am not saying amplifiers cannot sound different. I am saying, how can the difference be night and day between two amps? In my thinking that either requires a defective amplifier or a distortion of the meaning of 'night and day'


My point is that the the phrase 'night and day' is not only overused, but it's incorrectly used and misleading. Maybe I am thinking too much about this.


What do people think about the use of this term?
 

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i totally a agree, and just ran into something similar. The guy was looking to buy a new AVR, because his Pioneer in his words while being a "great" unit. was way too bright...


So i am guessing his next post after setting up his new AVR will be "the difference is like day and night" between the XXX and the pioneer.



I think where you will have day and night differences is in setup and/or how a unit handles bass management. I struggled for a couple years with my previous AVR and was never quite convinced that i was getting proper LFE levels...so i bit on a new HDMI avr and i am hoping he difference is "day and night"





couldn't resist.....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15516472


Maybe I am thinking too much about this.

I think so buddy



What brought this on? I think there are other terms out with the same silly connotation. People just get excited about their new purchase and don't think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What brought this on is that I see people giving advice to people using phrases like this, and I think it can give false expectations.


Do I think people are going to change because I posted this? No


I am just curious as to whether people think these statements are misleading to potential buyers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15516937


What brought this on is that I see people giving advice to people using phrases like this, and I think it can give false expectations.


Do I think people are going to change because I posted this? No


I am just curious as to whether people think these statements are misleading to potential buyers.

Of course it's misleading. Especially when you consider that it seems to be used quite often in cases where the difference is most likely to be completely imaginary.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15516937


What brought this on is that I see people giving advice to people using phrases like this, and I think it can give false expectations.


Do I think people are going to change because I posted this? No


I am just curious as to whether people think these statements are misleading to potential buyers.

I think that it is up to a buyer to do some basic research. If they listen to someone that makes statements like that and they base their purchase on information like this...they deserve what they get



It's the "Don't Confuse Me with Facts" you see it all the time. I think most of these people who believe the "Night and Day Difference" statements have already made up their mind and don't want to look at the facts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Buyers don't want to think if the daily 'help me pick a receiver' threads are any indication.


Also, I remember what it was like to not know anything about receivers, and to be swayed by a lot of the BS that's out there.
 

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It is a matter of heightened expectations applied to the new equipment. Someone does the research, checks out a number of reviews of a product and then spends a lot of money on a new amp or AVR that replaces a now "obsolete" unit. Of course there is a night and day difference. If not, money was wasted.


That being said, there can indeed be dramatic differences with new technology. Think about Bluray or HDDVD as compared to the DVD format or DVD-Audio and SACD compared to CD. Immediate and obvious differences. Better, maybe, depending on one's perceptions.


I think the answer also depends on all the connected equipment. For example, in a good system is there a night and day difference in sound between DD 5.1 and one of the improved lossy or lossless formats? That is a matter of subjective interpretation.


There is probably also a correlation between end results and set-up options. Many newer products have better set-up abilities, such as Audyssey, that didn't exist in earlier models. Once everything is properly set, the user expects to hear a difference and likely does. Is the difference better or night and day? Again, a matter of subjective opinion.


Memory is also a factor. Unless you are doing a true A/B blind comparison using all the same connected equipment at the same time, you are comparing something you hear now to something you heard in the past and the perception is colored by what you think you remember and what you expect to hear.


I know, I also couldn't resist thinking and responding too much.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15517215


Buyers don't want to think if the daily 'help me pick a receiver' threads are any indication.

I agree
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15517215


Buyers don't want to think if the daily 'help me pick a receiver' threads are any indication.

Agreed.


The single most striking thing about "AMPs, Receivers, and Processors" is the never ceasing 'help me pick a receiver' threads. Not only do they not do any searches, they don't even bother to page through "AMPs, Receivers, and Processors" to see if anything has been said that might help in their own situation.


Cheers
 

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Funny this discussion reminds me a post the other day where the guy was looking for a new AVR and said something to the effect...


....there are to many choices and I can't decide... I'm thinking of just picking one at random...


Really the guy was totally frustrated with the choices and perhaps going to pick one by random selection!



Maybe it was the 'night and day' thing that got to him... LOL


I usually send folks needing a read on AVR's to MichaelJHuman FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=968859
 

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i prefer to describe diferences whether real or imagined--saying night and day is if nothing else uninformative--ok, i have definitely heard differences--recently had a denon 2808 in my system to make sure it worked and compared to my normal systyem (parasound c1 and sunfire amp) i suppose one could describe the difference as night and day but what does that tell you? actually it would be wrong--the 2808 souned thinner, had less midrange warmth, less taught and potent bass and had much much less headroom and was not able to fill the room with sound as I am used to.


since the whole objetivist versus subjectivist debate seems to take over most of the threads here i would agree that it would be more helpful to make more specific observations. for the most part i dont think the differences between gear should be characterized as night and day--sometims there are bigger and other times smaller differences but i do agree there are better ways of characterizing sound changes--that can be either supported by others or disagreed over--either way the differences can be discussed and we can all learn from them, which is to me, one of the great things about this forum..
 

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BTW, michael, thank you for bringing up this topic in an open minded and constructive way. i wish that when topics like this come up all threads like this could be so civilized--discussing thsi topic in this way WILL be of use to beginners and people looking for information on gear and evaluating diffeences whereas flaming wars over objectivist versus subjectivist opinions on dbt and such tend to go nowhere--and dont serve the interests of people looking for information to make purchases or just to learn more.
 

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Some very good replies here. I think that we all tend to "believe" that what we spent money on sounds way better than what we had before. Most of the time, what we had before is already out of out systems and the new unit that we probably over paid for is inserted in its place. I'll bet that practacally every time there is a night and day difference! Cause we sure as hell aren't going to 1) admit we can't hear a difference. 2)Admit we made a mistake or 3) sell the new unit and buy back the old!!

Can anyone here come up with an entry where a member admitted they made a mistake and got rid of the new purchase and bought back the old?
 

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There isn't so much of a difference if you are talking about a clear moonlit night as compared to a heavily overcast day.


There are many shades of in-between. Whats wrong with the phrase 'night and day'? Depends on the contrast, doesn't it?


In the end its a simple matter of proper semantics.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/15518140


There isn't so much of a difference if you are talking about a clear moonlit night as compared to a heavily overcast day.


There are many shades of in-between. Whats wrong with the phrase 'night and day'? Depends on the contrast, doesn't it?


In the end its a simple matter of proper semantics.

Well if you are reaching...let me help you out. On the North Pole, during the winter, there is not much difference between Day and Night. It is always dark. Please
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/15518140


There isn't so much of a difference if you are talking about a clear moonlit night as compared to a heavily overcast day.


There are many shades of in-between. Whats wrong with the phrase 'night and day'? Depends on the contrast, doesn't it?


In the end its a simple matter of proper semantics.

I knew someone would post something like this. When people use the term night and day, do you think they have this conversation with themselves?


"Well, what does night and day mean? Someone should be able to tell the difference as well as someone can tell the difference between night and day. But what about Twilight? Well, ok, that's what I mean. Some will say night, and some will say day when I ask them to choose, and it's twilight. Which means when I say night and day, I mean that some people will not know which is which. Yep, that's crystal clear to my readers. I will use the phrase"
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15518235


I knew someone would post something like this. When people use the term night and day, do you think they have this conversation with themselves?


"Well, what does night and day mean? Someone should be able to tell the difference as well as someone can tell the difference between night and day. But what about Twilight? Well, ok, that's what I mean. Some will say night, and some will say day when I ask them to choose, and it's twilight. Which means when I say night and day, I mean that some people will not know which is which. Yep, that's crystal clear to my readers. I will use the phrase"

*

The term 'night and day' sounds as if its a pet peeve of yours.


Perhaps you should try to get over it. We have a nation of people offended by way too many things as it is.


Personally I dislike seeing words miss-spelled, the words/numbers 2, two, to and too used interchangeably, little regard for proper punctuation and proper paragraph usage but I don't intend to start a thread to cover or educate anyone. I'm quite able to ignore all that and concentrate on why I come here to begin with, the benefits of learning, and educating from each other.


If/when I see someone use the phrase 'day and night', I can take it with a grain of salt and take it for what it is.
 

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I'm of the opinion that amplifiers themselves can never cause "night and day" differences because they all sound the same. Here's the evidence.


However, processors by nature process the sound. It's totally conceivable that an Audyssey setup does sound night and day different from a non Audyssey setup.


There seems to be a sort of revolution happening with processing; in the past the goal was for the pre/pro to provide as clean and unmodified a signal as possible. But today there is an acknowledgement that there is no "perfect signal" that is right for all rooms and speakers. Adapting the signal to the room is the new name of the game, and so processors are doing more processing. No longer is the straight wire with gain the goal. Signal differences may be improvements, not degadations. Night and Day differences are now possible and desirable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/15518673


*

If/when I see someone use the phrase 'day and night', I can take it with a grain of salt and take it for what it is.

Ya, that being a figure of speech used to describe a significant difference.


How's the new job Knucklehead90? Oh it's night and day better than the last place I worked. The secretary has huge woofers!
 
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