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Discussion Starter #3
No dual subwoofer out...major deal breaker. If you're spending thousands on a AV pre most likely you'll have or want dual subs
It appears to have dual balanced sub outs? That was one of the problems I had with the MRX line.
 

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No dual subwoofer out...major deal breaker. If you're spending thousands on a AV pre most likely you'll have or want dual subs
The lack of so-called dual sub EQ is a feature, not an omission.

In fact, the real problem with pretty much all the room correction systems is that they don't sweep mains and subs together as a unit. That's why most of them (even ARC, though it is probably the best of them) offer relatively poor integration without manual tweaking.

ALL of the automated "dual sub" EQ systems out there are risible failures: Audyssey SubEQ HT, Dirac in XMC-1, etc. Harman Sound Field Management (JBL Synthesis) seems to get it right, but that's the only one I know of. Even the super-expensive Dirac and Trinnov boxes work optimally when they only "see" a subwoofer system instead of individual subs.

In every case (except for Harman SFM) one will get the best results by using a mono sub out into a dedicated controller (e.g. miniDSP) and setting levels, delays, and EQ manually.

And if you're willing to spend thousands on a pre-pro, then you should be willing to spend an extra few hundred on equipment to properly run multiple subwoofers, and an extra $500 or so for professional calibration if you don't want to do it yourself for whatever reason.
 

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When .1 came home people started saying:

- "I want the subs to play in stereo."

Response: It can be arranged but to hear them in stereo, your system will have to be moved outside and ten feet off the ground. In a room, bass is non-directional even with one sub, and since multiple subs affect frequency response interactively, group eq as final eq is a necessity.

More recently, a couple more reasons surfaced:

- "I would like to set delay separately per sub as a means of taming resonances."

Response: ARC flattens them. This is what equalization is for.

- "My more capable sub plays to 20 Hz and the other two only go to 30 Hz."

Response: Subs are normally designed to block frequencies too low / levels too high for their own good. Warnings that say, "Connect only to a sub-out that doesn't play lower than 30 Hz" are unheard of.

Multiple sub channels so far: A solution in search of a hypothetical problem.
 

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That's why most of them (even ARC, though it is probably the best of them) offer relatively poor integration without manual tweaking.
www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-52

"However, the real payoff was [ARC's] overall integration of the sound, both harmonically and spatially."

www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-including-a-subwoofer/page-4-conclusions.html

"only the Anthem ARC has the ability to create the correct filter shapes ... Before the Anthem ARC, I had never heard a system with a subwoofer that had not been degraded in the crossover area."
 

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www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-52

"However, the real payoff was [ARC's] overall integration of the sound, both harmonically and spatially."

www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-including-a-subwoofer/page-4-conclusions.html

"only the Anthem ARC has the ability to create the correct filter shapes ... Before the Anthem ARC, I had never heard a system with a subwoofer that had not been degraded in the crossover area."
Well...if you're going to quote Dr. Rich, you might want to also look what he wrote about AVR LSI's, starting here. ;)

That aside, those quotes hardly disprove my point, which is that all current room correction systems (except Harman SFM) are all bad at integrating subs, though ARC is perhaps relatively less bad than the others. All of them, including ARC, require manual tweaking for really good results.

I'm not writing from ignorance here: I've have personal experience with Trinnov, Audyssey, and ARC in multichannel, and Dirac in 2-channel. And now I've used ARC in three rooms. It is my favorite of all of the systems I've tried, but that doesn't mean it's perfect.

Speaking of ARC, perhaps your AVM60 version can steal a trick from Dirac, assuming Dirac hasn't patented it. They run an extra sweep at the end to account for time variance in USB sound cards. I don't know if it's as good as a true loopback correction, but Dirac seems to think it's good enough to set speaker distances.
 

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^ Start two pages earlier, where MRX gen 1 is mentioned. Key take-away:

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/audio-video-receiver-build-quality-part-ii-design-of-high-performance-avrs-and-pre-pros/page-2-electronic-volume-controls-that-enhance-performance.html

"The difference between the THD of the best IC-based volume control ICs (Integrated Circuits) and typical AVR LSIs (Large Scale Integrated Circuits) is 2.5 bits using measurements sourced from data sheets with the control set to unity gain."

...and not much to do with AVM 60 since it doesn't use the cited parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@Nick @ Anthem Any info when we can see this unit on the market? I am highly interested in this unit or an updated MRX with DTSX and Atmos. I was so close to buying the MRX710, but no Atmos was the reason why I did not get it. I was actually going to get the 510 and boost the front stage up with another amp. Hope to see something soon.
 

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Production date isn't set - best to wait until CEDIA for an accurate timeline.
 

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[quoting Dr. David Rich]
"The difference between the THD of the best IC-based volume control ICs (Integrated Circuits) and typical AVR LSIs (Large Scale Integrated Circuits) is 2.5 bits using measurements sourced from data sheets with the control set to unity gain."

...and not much to do with AVM 60 since it doesn't use the cited parts.
2.5 bits is a 15dB difference in signal/noise ratio, right? That's certainly not nothing!

Now, if you want to say that either way we're above the threshold of audibility, I agree that is more likely than not the case. Here, the coverup is far worse than the "crime" (building an pre-pro off of an AVR LSI). But you seem oddly threatened by things that don't 100% toe the company line from someone basically on Team Anthem and it's a little puzzling.
 

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Now, if you want to say that either way we're above the threshold of audibility, I agree that is more likely than not the case. Here, the coverup is far worse than the "crime" (building an pre-pro off of an AVR LSI).
I wouldn't know how to give a relevant answer before a production-spec AVM 60 becomes available. The data sheet for the LSI in the AVM 60 says it's made for multichannel audio systems - nothing about being exclusive to AVRs or that it shouldn't be used in a prepro. I've often said that all that matters is what comes out the output jacks and that blanket statements only cloud the discussion, and have no idea why LSIs even became part of this one.
 

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So, that rep that told me anthem was coming out with a new pre was correct even though anthem told me it wasn't true. Interesting...
Statement D3 no, AVM 60 yes (as of relatively short while ago)
 

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I wouldn't know how to give a relevant answer before a production-spec AVM 60 becomes available. The data sheet for the LSI in the AVM 60***
[emph. added]

You just did give a relevant answer, in the text I bolded. :)

nothing about being exclusive to AVRs or that it shouldn't be used in a prepro.
As you know or should know, I'm using the term "AVR LSI" as defined in Dr. Rich's hometheaterhifi AVR build quality article cited above. Here's how he defined his term "AVR LSI," at the top of this page.:

"a single chip that subsumes almost all of the unit's analog electronics. This single chip serves a variety of functions:

a. Eight[*] channels of electronic volume controls to control the level at the preamp or power amp output.
b. Eight channels of analog buffering for direct connection to the preamp output jacks or internal power amp inputs.
c. A switch at each electronic volume control input to select the DAC output or the 7.1 analog inputs.
d. A selector switch for the two-channel analog inputs (8 – 14) to be sent to the ADC, or in direct mode, sent to the electronic volume controls at the preamps output.
e. The FL and FR volume control inputs have an additional position on the switch to the volume controls. This is for the direct (DSP bypass mode) mode of operation for two channel inputs. All other volume controls are grounded when stereo direct is selected.
f. Two channels of electronic volume controls for the ADC input to adjust levels to prevent overload of the ADC, followed by a pair of opamp buffers.
g. An independent selector switch for the two-channel analog inputs to be sent to the record output. An opamp buffer is placed between the selector switch and the chips output to isolate the selector switch from the load. In addition, switches are in series with the output that open to prevent a tape recorder self-loop fault condition. Some AVRs have no tape output and in that case this selector is for zone 2.
h. Another independent selector switch for the two-channel analog inputs to be sent to an alternate record output. This output can also be used for zone 2 or 3 outputs. The selector switch is again buffered by a pair of opamps."

*Pre-Atmos/Auro/DTS:X, obviously.

nothing about being exclusive to AVRs or that it shouldn't be used in a prepro.
That's marketer prevarication. As you know, the market does draw (rightly or wrongly) a distinction between "true" pre-pros (such as the current AVM/D, the Bryston and Classe units, the new Emotiva XMC-1, etc.) which have SSI (Rich's term again) analog sections, and "AVR's with deleted amps," which use AVR LSI analog sections. (Today, I believe all of the mainstream Japanese brand prepros are in the latter category. I'm not sure about Onkyo/Integra, as their current lineup isn't interesting enough for me to investigate in any detail.)

I've often said that all that matters is what comes out the output jacks***
I agree with that statement, but only to an extent. Parts quality and expense matters in an expensive product, even if performance is the same, because of value perception.

Let me draw an analogy to Paradigm. Say Paradigm announces a new upmarket sub with all the trimmings: hi-rez ARC/PBK, force cancellation, beautiful cabinetry, etc. Someone asks if the drive units' frames are stamped or cast. They get a wishy-washy non-answer (which will cause any intelligent person to infer the answer is "stamped"). Now, a stamped frame can do the job of a drive unit frame just as well as a cast one can, at least to any real audibility limits. But at a certain price, the market simply expects cast frame drivers. At a lower price, under-the-skin cost-cutting measures such as using stamped rather than cast drive-unit frames make sense.

and have no idea why LSIs even became part of this one.
Because the question was asked and you prevaricated instead of giving the straight answer you gave above ["the LSI in the AVM60"]. It's as simple as that. The coverup prompted all further discussion. Hopefully someone found it useful to read.
 

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Will a Statement product follow soon after the AVM goes to market and are you looking to go beyond the typical run of the mill receiver limited Atmos/dts:X channel count? In other words will you be implementing a minimum of 16 channels i.e. DataSat RS20i and possibly going out to 24 i.e. Theta Casablanca V when it arrives and possibly more i.e. Trinnov Altitude32?

I just feel that the SSP's should be separating themselves from the receivers by offering more channels than the receivers and at a very minimum dual sub outs. Just my opinion.
 
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