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Did not consider a ground from a balcony - only metal is railing on wood floor - my access is limited to balcony-
vibrator is a miner concern - it is metal - will try outlet ground
Thank you
 

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After reading above comments about the Televes one input amp I tried it to solve a channel 3 (PBS) problem.
I made a CH 3 length dipole attached to the rail of my balcony (keep the management happy) in our retirement apartment facing 5 deg off Roanoke, VA towers 50 miles. Picks up all channels + CH 7 from Bedford 20 miles. Outside unit 3' away -bottom of rail 25 ' to inside unit - feeds 2 tv's.
With the previous Channel Master red/green amp inside channel 3 had constant break ups
I'm not clear on your setup. Did you use the same channel 3 dipole with both preamps in the same balcony location? The only difference was swapping the preamps? It sounds like you're saying the antenna with the CM preamp was indoors and the antenna with the Televes preamp was outdoors.
 

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IF the foot vibrator is metal, (or the motor inside) perhaps just adding a separate ground wire from the motor to an outlet ground screw would be enough.
That would not be an RF ground at channel 3. Any piece of wire longer than about 1 foot from earth ground at channel 3 is an antenna. All the grounding antenna discussions are about lightning protection (DC) and not RF grounding.
 

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That would not be an RF ground at channel 3. Any piece of wire longer than about 1 foot from earth ground at channel 3 is an antenna. All the grounding antenna discussions are about lightning protection (DC) and not RF grounding.
That's true, but he likely didn't even ground the coax, (which I also mentioned) and that alone might be enough to help with the interference. Regardless, we both know that the coax should be grounded anyway.
 

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That's true, but he likely didn't even ground the coax, (which I also mentioned) and that alone might be enough to help with the interference. Regardless, we both know that the coax should be grounded anyway.
The only reason to ground coax is to provide some lightning protection. Indoor coax doesn't need to be grounded. Unwanted RF on the coax shield is best dealt with by adding ferrite chokes to the coax.

Connecting coax through a wire many wavelengths long to an earth ground in hopes of reducing interference is no different than connecting a long piece of wire to the coax shield that is connected to nothing at the other end. :)
 

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Antenna location the same with both amps - the Channel master was inside with the tv's - the new Televes is
split -pre amp with antenna and control unit with tv.
Coax runs from antenna on outside of metal rail for 20' thru window - no grounding.
Vibrator problem not important.
 

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The only interference left is a foot vibrator used in the same room - must use when CH 3 not being used.
Note: I bought it from Lowes for half price of Amazon ( and got Korean vet 10% discount)
Is your foot vibrator AC powered? If so, you might want to consider adding a noise filter to the AC line cord...it involves wrapping a few turns of the power cord through a mix 31 or 43 ferrite toroid or adding a couple of mix 31 or 43 snap on ferrite beads to the power cord. The interference you are experiencing may emanate from the foot vibrator via the power cord and if so the ferrite would suppress the interference. You can read up on the products at Home - Palomar Engineers®

There are a number of sources for the ferrite components including Palomar Engineers, Amazon and KF7P.com.

3132550
 

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Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the Kitztech KT-200

With all the recent interest in this preamp I decided to purchase one and run my usual bench tests. I've only attached analyzer displays where it was easier to see the results than just list numbers.

I did not measure anything on low VHF since there's no benefit to having a preamp on low VHF. Too much environmental noise even in quiet locations and too low coax loss.

Gain/Bandpass

See attached displays. Gain on VHF and UHF measured exactly as spec'd. The KT-200 on high VHF is about 25 dB and on UHF about 21 dB with no filtering.


Noise Figure

KT-200 High VHF 1.2 to 1.7 dB, UHF 1.3 dB to 1.6 dB
Televes 560331 High VHF 3.1 dB to 3.3 dB, UHF 2.1 dB to 2.5 dB

I expected that the Televes would have a slightly higher NF because of the bandpass filters. I think this is about as good as you can expect from a consumer level product. The KT-200 has no filtering except for FM. I doubt that anyone would notice the difference in NF. The filtering might be more important depending on your local RF environment. If your RF environment is low like mine is, lower NF might be more important.

Standard NF disclaimer: I don't make any claims for perfectly accurate NF measurements. There are a lot of things that can affect the measurements and I can't account for them all. They're in the ballpark and the KT200 is lower than the 560331.

FM Filtering

See attached displays for the FM Filters. I don't like either of these. The KT-200 cuts too far into channel 6 and the 560331 doesn't cut at all into channel 6 and passes a lot of the FM band. If it were up to me, I'd set the attenuation at 4-5 dB at 88 MHz. That would have minimal impact on channel 6 and maximize FM attenuation.

I took a stab at measuring 3rd Order Intercept Point (IP3). It's not clear how the 560331's AGC is affecting this measurement. The best I can tell is that the 560331 is 2-3 dB lower than the KT-200. It doesn't seem to be an issue.

VHF Gain/Bandpass

3132641



UHF Gain/Bandpass

3132642



KT-200 FM Bnad

3132643



560331 FM Band

3132644
 

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My Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the 2015 model Kitztech KT-200, that has NO internal filters.

I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.

Readings are using a Televes H30D3 meter, which is a cable tv meter, so some adjacent channels have the ">" (greater than) symbol as this meter can't demodulate the signal to get MER and BER, but only measure the straight RF. It's a fairly cool night in mid-Michigan, about 50f, but fairly clear, only a little clouds. Maybe 7-10mph steady wind. Readings taken within a short period of time. Just enough to get them for the Televes, swap out the injector and preamp, and take the Kitztech KT-200 readings. NOTHING else in the chain was changed between swapping them.

So, on these readings, BOTH VHF (AntennaCraft Y-10 7-13 aimed at WJRT RF12) & UHF (HDB91x for ALL my UHF stations but aimed at WFFC-LD RF17 (10Kw at 32 miles, I'm about 5 or so miles outside their furthest contour, but it's more or less the center of my UHF station arc, & the lowest power station I actually WANT) antennas are being combined & fed through a UVSJ into the respective preamps. In other words, both VHF & UHF bands are being preamp'ed.

My antennas are up about 25-27ft on a 2" well pipe mast. Everything is properly grounded to the house ground. I do have issues with multipath due to trees and fluttering leaves, but the Televes adjusts for that. First on the LEFT are the newest readings from the Televes, on the RIGHT are the Kitztech KT-200. These are thumbnail images, so you need to click on them to enlarge them if you want to see more detail;

wnem 5 Televes spectrum.png wnem 5 KT200 spectrum.png

wjrt 12 Televes spectrum.png wjrt 12 KT200 spectrum.png

wcmu 14 Televes spectrum.png wcmu 14 KT200 spectrum.png

wffc 17 Televes spectrum.png wffc 17 KT200 spectrum.png

wdcq 19 Televes spectrum.png wdcq 19 KT200 spectrum.png

weyi 25 Televes spectrum.png weyi 25 KT200 spectrum.png

wbsf 46 Televes spectrum.png wbsf 46 KT200 spectrum.png

waqp 49 Televes spectrum.png waqp 49 KT200 spectrum.png

wsmh 66 Televes spectrum.png wsmh 66 KT200 spectrum.png
 

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I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.
What I'm seeing in your displays is only signal strength. Since the Televes has 10 dB more gain than the KT-200 on UHF the signals should be 10 dB stronger. This seems to hold true for the stations I looked at. The KT-200 has 3 dB higher gain on VHF than the 560331. Your signal strength is higher on RF12 with the KT-200.

There are no winners or losers in your test, simply differences in gain. Higher gain does not equal more stations or higher S/N. Maybe you could post a table of SNRs (Signal Quality) from your TV. That would be more informative.
 

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Maybe you could post a table of SNRs (Signal Quality) from your TV. That would be more informative.
My present tv's are TCL Roku sets. All they have are bar graphs, which aren't accurate with the present 10.0.0 firmware. You've already in another post also put down the fact of my Tivo Signal Strength and SNR readings I posted, which is the only other thing I could post, and those aren't all on a single page.

Is there any sort of antenna meter I could get, where you would accept the readings? If so, let me know.
 

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You've already in another post also put down the fact of my Tivo Signal Strength and SNR readings I posted, which is the only other thing I could post, and those aren't all on a single page.

Is there any sort of antenna meter I could get, where you would accept the readings? If so, let me know.
The TiVo SNR number is fine. Unfortunately TiVo chose not to provide real signal strength on their Diagnostic screen but instead they call Signal Quality Signal Strength. Sometimes I think manufacturers go out of their way to provide useless and confusing information. :(
 

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The TiVo SNR number is fine. Unfortunately TiVo chose not to provide real signal strength on their Diagnostic screen but instead they call Signal Quality Signal Strength. Sometimes I think manufacturers go out of their way to provide useless and confusing information. :(
I think Signal Strength is simply SNR times 2.5
 

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I'm going to need a new receiver/tuner for my antenna setup as my Vizio TV does not have a tuner.

We have not gotten 3.0 yet in the Chicago Milwaukee Market but it's on the way. I want to get a tuner that has a good quality signal meter and 3.0 capable. Is there such a tuner? I would like to be able to see a display at least this good, (Toshiba):

3134844


I hear the HDHR is good but I don't want to use a computer to watch TV...
 

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My Televes 560383 Kit (560331 preamp) Mini-Review and Comparison to the 2015 model Kitztech KT-200, that has NO internal filters.

I'm going to borrow your title, and post my findings between those preamps. In my case, I think the Televes 560383 kit (560331 preamp) clearly wins.

Readings are using a Televes H30D3 meter, which is a cable tv meter, so some adjacent channels have the ">" (greater than) symbol as this meter can't demodulate the signal to get MER and BER, but only measure the straight RF. It's a fairly cool night in mid-Michigan, about 50f, but fairly clear, only a little clouds. Maybe 7-10mph steady wind. Readings taken within a short period of time. Just enough to get them for the Televes, swap out the injector and preamp, and take the Kitztech KT-200 readings. NOTHING else in the chain was changed between swapping them.

So, on these readings, BOTH VHF (AntennaCraft Y-10 7-13 aimed at WJRT RF12) & UHF (HDB91x for ALL my UHF stations but aimed at WFFC-LD RF17 (10Kw at 32 miles, I'm about 5 or so miles outside their furthest contour, but it's more or less the center of my UHF station arc, & the lowest power station I actually WANT) antennas are being combined & fed through a UVSJ into the respective preamps. In other words, both VHF & UHF bands are being preamp'ed.

My antennas are up about 25-27ft on a 2" well pipe mast. Everything is properly grounded to the house ground. I do have issues with multipath due to trees and fluttering leaves, but the Televes adjusts for that. First are the newest readings from the Televes;

View attachment 3132762

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The following are the 2015 Kitztech KT-200-Coax preamp readings:

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How do you get those perfect screenshots like that? Where is the function for that on the H30? Right now the best I can do is take a photo of my H30 screen and crop it and straighten it.

3134848


Also it would be nice if you could arrange your screenshots next to each other for comparatives. I mean side-by-side for each Channel. Going back and forth between one post and the other too much is lost. I don't know how to do that with your screenshots though. 😕
 

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How do you get those perfect screenshots like that? Where is the function for that on the H30? Right now the best I can do is take a photo of my H30 screen and crop it and straighten it.

View attachment 3134848

Also it would be nice if you could arrange your screenshots next to each other for comparatives. I mean side-by-side for each Channel. Going back and forth between one post and the other too much is lost. I don't know how to do that with your screenshots though. 😕
It has a remote web app function. Meaning, it's plugged into my router with a standard ethernet cable. I then bring up Firefox, and type the H30 meters IP address into the address line, and it comes up. I then just do a right-click "Save Image As", and save the screenshots to a folder.

p.s. I rearranged the screen shots above. This is what I think you wanted? It's the best the forum can do.
 

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I'm going to need a new receiver/tuner for my antenna setup as my Vizio TV does not have a tuner.

We have not gotten 3.0 yet in the Chicago Milwaukee Market but it's on the way. I want to get a tuner that has a good quality signal meter and 3.0 capable. Is there such a tuner? I would like to be able to see a display at least this good, (Toshiba):

View attachment 3134844

I hear the HDHR is good but I don't want to use a computer to watch TV...
Hey Chi, I’m with you on that. My new Sony X900H has a great tuner and easy to get to diagnostics screen with signal strength meter and SNR on 1.0 but the 3.0 diagnostics only has the the signal strength meter. I can live with that awhile but like you I’m searching for the perfect 3.0 tuner box. I’ve read and watched many reviews and still haven’t pulled the trigger on anything.
 

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The 4K HDHomeRuns are the only standalone ATSC 3.0 tuners that are shipping now. They have Sony tuners in them. They have a development version that has more detailed information.

ATSC 3.0 is a totally different animal than ATSC 1.0. Some of the terminology you're used to doesn't apply to ATSC 3.0.
 

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The 4K HDHomeRuns are the only standalone ATSC 3.0 tuners that are shipping now. They have Sony tuners in them. They have a development version that has more detailed information.

ATSC 3.0 is a totally different animal than ATSC 1.0. Some of the terminology you're used to doesn't apply to ATSC 3.0.
Thanks for that information. Do you absolutely have to have a computer hooked up to use the HDHR ? Or only to view the diagnostic screen??
 
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