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If you have a choice of mounting the MAs on the front feet vs. the back feet of a couch, which one would you recommend. I always thought that the front feet would be better since a person is usually sitting right above them, but is that the accepted location? If not, why not?

Thanks!
Do you sit on the edge of your seat?


On my 3 seater (powered HT recliners) my center mass is located closer to the rear feet.
unless your legs/feet weigh more than your core, the rear position is the logical choice.





It's certainly easy enough to try both Front and Rear positions and simply choose your own preference ;)
 

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Like @PioManiac said, most people tend to run their MA’s in the back of their seating. I run mine a little catty-corner on my side of a two seater since it evens the response at the MLP. Everyone is different so try a couple configurations.

I tried them with one MA on each back corner of the loveseat but got significantly less TR in the middle armrest so that’s where one on the back right and front left positions helped my seating at the MLP. My spouse doesn’t care for TR much, so I’m all about optimizing my seat. I think when reclining in theater chairs more weight would tend to rest on the rear of the seating, so that may also be why it’s preferred.

Glad to see so many new Crowson owners!
 

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Just ordered me two more MA's for a 3rd seat, they went up in price a bit from when I bought my others I believe. Still worth it though!

I'm gonna try the new style isolators too. (I ordered 2 single kits to get more iso's cheaper (I needed 6), thanks for telling me to get the single kits the other day @Nalleh for cheaper with as many iso's as I needed!).

And yep your right, he said they reworked them to help them keep from coming apart. He said they may have took a slight performance hit in doing so (a little firmer, but still a lot softer (to get more ULF movement) than the normal ones (grey color now). Should be good, can't wait to try the new isolators :)
So I got the 6 new sorbothane isolators in. I haven't checked them out yet under the seats, but just smashing them down with my fingers, they are quite a bit stiffer than the previous sorbos before he reworked them (I have two of these that I haven't used yet as well). I don't think they are as firm as the normal ones (grey color), but I'm sure some motion will be lost in the ULF TR compared to the previous version of the really squishy ones, although they wont come apart as easy I'm sure like he said. Have you tried the reworked ones yet compared to your previous sorbo's @Nalleh ?
 

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^^^ No, no yet. I only have two on the upgraded ones, so it would only be "half" upgraded. I am using the last 4 of the "Gen I" sorbo’s i have at the moment, but i agree, the new ones seems stiffer.
 

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This is a continuation of a discussion between me and aron in the The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts thread:


Don't you have Crowsons? I think it's just that your MAs aren't time-aligned. You need significant negative delay on them to be properly time-aligned, in my experience. Music tracks like those in Bohemian Rhapsody and A Star Is Born expose these issues more than any other content.
I believe it was you that mentioned those two movies recently and how they were great for time-aligning the MAs. Since I recently got my MiniDSP HD, I did exactly that the other night and that's when I noticed the weirdness with Bohemian Rhapsody.

I time-aligned the MAs with some music tracks, then with A Star Is Born (opening song), then went on to BH. I only played the Live Aid part, so maybe the other music in the film doesn't have that out-of-sync effect.

I fairly certain I have the negative delay dialed in for the MAs. Even if I turn off the MAs and just have the subs playing, I can notice the delay on the Live Aid bits. I'm pretty sure it was intentional. Check it out and let me know what you hear.
Yes, because this already assumes the subs are time-aligned properly with each other and the mains. The issue I found was in the relative delay between the subs and MAs. So when I say the MAs need negative delay, I am referring to their delay relative to the subs.

Edit: This is a specific thing for MAs, not all transducers. I think you have Buttkickers, so I wouldn't expect it to be the case for you. I'm pretty sure it's due to the extremely high moving mass of the seating and humans that the MAs have to lift.
You can tell by looking at the numbers?? I thought the only way to time-align the MAs was with the 'ol butt-o-meter or VibSensor.... :confused:

I have my sub distance set to "0" in the AVR and I time-aligned the front/rear/MBM subs with REW Impulse. I then did the distance tweak and got all subs in phase with the center. I know the delays seem on the small side, but it's what worked in my room. Maybe I did something wrong...I followed AustinJerry's guide for aligning the subs.


I can tell if the Crowsons have negative delay relative to the subs by the numbers.

You could start by setting the Crowson delay to 0. It will likely help some.

If you want more negative delay, you'll just have to increase the sub distance in your AVR some amount, and then increase the delays on outputs 1,2,4 in your MiniDSP an equal amount so that the subs end up exactly where they started, but leave the Crowson delay at 0.

Edit: BTW your approach of 0 sub distance in the AVR and setting delays in the MiniDSP only works properly if all of your subs are closer than your closest main. If that isn't the case, you might have good constructive phase interference between your subs and mains but your subs are a cycle or more behind. I'd start over if that is the case.

I may have the AVR distance not at "0", I'll have to look when I get home, no way to see that from work since my AVR is off.

I did try the Crowsons at "0" delay, and it didn't feel right. On the top end, right around 4ms was starting to feel out of sync. As you see, I settled on 3.6ms and so far it feels right to me.

Are you saying there should be a significant negative delay? More significant than .4ms??

Just saw your edit; my front subs are pretty much equal in distance to my mains, maybe a touch further...all other subs are much closer to the MLP. If I am to start over, can you tell me where I went wrong and how I can remedy it?? One thing I am certain of, all subs are in phase with each other. :)
 
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I may have the AVR distance not at "0", I'll have to look when I get home, no way to see that from work since my AVR is off.

I did try the Crowsons at "0" delay, and it didn't feel right. On the top end, right around 4ms was starting to feel out of sync. As you see, I settled on 3.6ms and so far it feels right to me.

Are you saying there should be a significant negative delay? More significant than .4ms??

Just saw your edit; my front subs are pretty much equal in distance to my mains, maybe a touch further...all other subs are much closer to the MLP. If I am to start over, can you tell me where I went wrong and how I can remedy it?? One thing I am certain of, all subs are in phase with each other. :)
I have about 7.5ms of negative delay on my Crowsons and I need more, but the limitations of my AVR's delay stop me from adding any more.

Well I think the first step is understanding why it is the case, and this is why:
Let's think about a single sub and a single main to keep it simple. If the sub is further than the main, then the AVR needs to delay the main. If the sub is closer than the main, then the AVR needs to delay the sub.

If you tell the AVR that the sub is 0 distance, and the main is 5 feet away, then it will delay the sub ~5ms relative to the main. Now, if the sub is actually closer than the main, that's okay because you can still add the necessary delay to the sub in the MiniDSP. But if the sub is actually further than the main, you actually need to add negative delay to the sub (which you can't do from the MiniDSP) or add positive delay to the main (which you can't do from the MiniDSP). So there's no way to rectify that situation other than adding sub distance in the AVR.
 

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One thing I am certain of, all subs are in phase with each other. :)
Well, maybe not so much...just checked my Impulse for my front/rear subs again and I aligned the first drop (20m). I believe that is where AustinJerry told me to align the Impulses....should I be aligning there or the first peak? If it's the peak, then I'm off by about 2.5ms.
 

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I have about 7.5ms of negative delay on my Crowsons and I need more, but the limitations of my AVR's delay stop me from adding any more.

Well I think the first step is understanding why it is the case, and this is why:
Let's think about a single sub and a single main to keep it simple. If the sub is further than the main, then the AVR needs to delay the main. If the sub is closer than the main, then the AVR needs to delay the sub.

If you tell the AVR that the sub is 0 distance, and the main is 5 feet away, then it will delay the sub ~5ms relative to the main. Now, if the sub is actually closer than the main, that's okay because you can still add the necessary delay to the sub in the MiniDSP. But if the sub is actually further than the main, you actually need to add negative delay to the sub (which you can't do from the MiniDSP) or add positive delay to the main (which you can't do from the MiniDSP). So there's no way to rectify that situation other than adding sub distance in the AVR.
For some reason this is all kinda hard for me to wrap my head around, and I think it's because AVRs use DISTANCE instead of DELAY and that is what I've been using for so many years...more distance = less delay. in the MiniDSP, the closer a speaker is (be that sub or satellite speaker), the more delay you need to apply. I think I got all that right in my head now that I just typed it out. :D

So, keeping that in mind and looking again at my MiniDSP delay settings, I seem to be close to where I need to be if I have some distance on the sub in the AVR. FRONT should probably be closer to 0, and the other delays should probably be higher though. I'm going to have to have another REW session soon. ;)


EDIT: Just for reference, my front subs are about 17' away from the MLP, rears about 5.5' and the MBM is directly behind and almost touching my chair (probably 8"-10" from my body).
 

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Well, maybe not so much...just checked my Impulse for my front/rear subs again and I aligned the first drop (20m). I believe that is where AustinJerry told me to align the Impulses....should I be aligning there or the first peak? If it's the peak, then I'm off by about 2.5ms.
I'm more of a believer in using measured distances as a starting point and then adjusting from there, more in line with mtg's method of integration. It just makes more sense to me to actually check the effect on phase and the resulting FR rather than relying on the IR.
 

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For some reason this is all kinda hard for me to wrap my head around, and I think it's because AVRs use DISTANCE instead of DELAY and that is what I've been using for so many years...more distance = less delay. in the MiniDSP, the closer a speaker is (be that sub or satellite speaker), the more delay you need to apply. I think I got all that right in my head now that I just typed it out. :D

So, keeping that in mind and looking again at my MiniDSP delay settings, I seem to be close to where I need to be if I have some distance on the sub in the AVR. FRONT should probably be closer to 0, and the other delays should probably be higher though. I'm going to have to have another REW session soon. ;)
Yes, speaking in terms of both distance and delay in the same context makes it complicated to switch back and forth between in our minds since they are opposite. It's not just you :)
 

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EDIT: Just for reference, my front subs are about 17' away from the MLP, rears about 5.5' and the MBM is directly behind and almost touching my chair (probably 8"-10" from my body).
All of your mains are 17' or further?
 

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I'm more of a believer in using measured distances as a starting point and then adjusting from there, more in line with mtg's method of integration. It just makes more sense to me to actually check the effect on phase and the resulting FR rather than relying on the IR.
For some reason, by brain does not want to wrap around this whole delay thing. :(

In my situation where:
- Mains are 16' away (and set to that in the AVR)
- Front subs are 17' away
- Rear subs are 5.5' away
- MBM is less than 1' away
- Crowsons

What distance and delay numbers would you start with??


I'm probably completely wrong but this is how I understand it as of now, going on the assumption that 1' is roughly 1ms:
- Set the sub distance in the AVR to 17' (this brings the subs in line with the mains)
- Front subs at 0ms delay in the MiniDSP
- Rear subs are 10.5' closer than mains = 10.5ms delay
- MBM is 15' closer than mains = 15ms delay
- Crowsons are 16' closer than mains = 16ms delay

Am I way off base here?????
 

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For some reason, by brain does not want to wrap around this whole delay thing. :(

In my situation where:
- Mains are 16' away (and set to that in the AVR)
- Front subs are 17' away
- Rear subs are 5.5' away
- MBM is less than 1' away
- Crowsons

What distance and delay numbers would you start with??


I'm probably completely wrong but this is how I understand it as of now, going on the assumption that 1' is roughly 1ms:
- Set the sub distance in the AVR to 17' (this brings the subs in line with the mains)
- Front subs at 0ms delay in the MiniDSP
- Rear subs are 10.5' closer than mains = 10.5ms delay
- MBM is 15' closer than mains = 15ms delay
- Crowsons are 16' closer than mains = 16ms delay

Am I way off base here?????
A few questions before I feel like I can give you proper advice on this:
Are you starting over or just trying to adjust what you already have? Do you run Audyssey or any other room correction? What amps drive your subs (they probably have delay themselves)?
 

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This delay in the crowsons people are talking about....are they complaining that its behind compared to subs or hitting early compared to subs? I don't notice it being off or not sure how to test the timing between crowsons and subs unless there is a specific scene or something that you can watch visually and feel at same time.
 

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This delay in the crowsons people are talking about....are they complaining that its behind compared to subs or hitting early compared to subs? I don't notice it being off or not sure how to test the timing between crowsons and subs unless there is a specific scene or something that you can watch visually and feel at same time.
Behind compared to subs. The best content I've found to use is movies that have music. BEQ makes it much easier to notice since it boosts the ULF, but you could just crank your Crowsons up temporarily for this purpose.

I noticed it in Bohemian Rhapsody and A Star Is Born, but on both I was running BEQ.
 

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I'm running out of the second sub out of my Yamaha to my Crowson 501 amp with a distance setting of 60 feet and that seems perfect to me after too many hours of testing movie scenes and music clips. I forgot who mentioned 60 feet as a suggestion, but I believe it was from testing with the Vibsensor app. I worked my way to 60 feet in 10 foot intervals and and agreed that it was good but I have no numbers to back it up so it could be a placebo thing.
 

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A few questions before I feel like I can give you proper advice on this:
Are you starting over or just trying to adjust what you already have? Do you run Audyssey or any other room correction? What amps drive your subs (they probably have delay themselves)?
I'm using a Denon 4520, but I do not use Audyssey. My system sounds better without it. :D

Amps are built into subs (dual PSA T18s, dual PSA S3000, 1200D MBM).

I'm willing to start over if need be, but would rather not. ;)
 
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I'm using a Denon 4520, but I do not use Audyssey. My system sounds better without it. :D



Amps are built into subs (dual PSA T18s, dual PSA S3000, 1200D MBM).



I'm willing to start over if need be, but would rather not. ;)

Do you know what delay you have on your nearfield MBM or closest subs? I’d go with that for starters.

I used the delay from my VNF subs and either side of that a few milliseconds makes a considerable difference being out of sync, but everyone’s tastes and furniture are different.

I tried running the Crowson’s 4ms less delay than the rest of the system the last few weeks to see how I liked it, and it has created a considerable lag in the TR. Delays being off are a lot more noticeable in music to me, and Bohemian Rhapsody last night was a good example with the kick drums coming in late.
 
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