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Thus, the Atmos decoder can identify which objects represent bed channels and which do not, and could, theoretically, distribute bed audio across an array if it wished.

Yes, there could be a second object flying through that very same canonical position, and it would not want to be “arrayed” at that moment then revert back to point-source rendering as it moves on. Is the decoder smart enough to avoid that? Maybe – it already sees a static object at that position, so all others could either be flagged as dynamic objects or inferred to be so. That level of detail is not mentioned.
I have asked Trinnov about the feasibility of this arraying beds, and their answer is clear and conclusive. In short: Arraying of bed channels is not possible with consumer Atmos. This is not a limitation of the decoder but of the way it is encoded. The spatial coding mechanism merges bed and objects into dynamic objects. There is no way to differentiate one from the other from the encoded content, the information simply is lost.
 

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My Atmos Immersión experience.

Matt Darey – Wolf - Dolby Atmos music album.

It is not my favorite music at all, but I think It can be an Atmos reference Demo Disc, more even than the official demo ones. IMO, it is more "effective" than the acclaimed R.E.M. Automatic for the people, or the recent Abbey Road from Beatles.

I have a 7.1.4 setup with in-ceiling speakers at more or less the recommended 45° angle. With tweeters that can be aimed to the MLP. Standard Auddyssey calibration.

The whole album is very "immersive Atmos" with a very good sound Bubble and music effects moving on top of your head and in the surrounds. In the first song I hear the singer voice coming directly from above top ceiling. Seating at MLP, I lift my head and look at above and clearly notice her voice coming from the Top Surround Speaker just above me. BUT, that is an Auro-3D speaker that is not connected, when in Atmos configuration, but I really listen the sound coming just from that point above me, even makes me look at above.

When I stand up and closer to the TS speaker the immersion and phantom image from the 4 top atmos speakers disappear a little and the sound changes to a more traditional Surround coming from more lateral directions.

Really impressive which tells me that I may be getting enough Atmos "Immersion" with my setup, at least seated at MLP.
Hello AYangaus

Can you please tell me where you bought the Matt Darey-Wolf album that has the Dolby Atmos soundtrack? I cannot seem to find it on Amazon and a few other places I've looked do not specify that the disc contains the Dolby Atmos soundtrack. Sounds like it would be a good demo disc to have. Thanks for your help.

Cal68
 

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Hello AYangaus

Can you please tell me where you bought the Matt Darey-Wolf album that has the Dolby Atmos soundtrack? I cannot seem to find it on Amazon and a few other places I've looked do not specify that the disc contains the Dolby Atmos soundtrack. Sounds like it would be a good demo disc to have. Thanks for your help.

Cal68
You have to buy it directly from his web site: https://www.mattdarey.com/ and you get a download of the choosed file format.

Be careful to buy the Atmos version, as there is also a stereo only version. You have to choose the file format .mp4, .m2ts or .mkv that can be well reproduced with your media player in your home cinema. You can find also a very cheap single song in the three formats to check which of them can be properly played in your system. The .mkv format is standard with video (static) and the Atmos track. Other album has two audio tracks (Atmos and surround 5.1).

I got the Wolf album for free when it was in promotion from his Facebook. Now you have to pay. It is a little bit expensive, but for having a very good Music Atmos reference Demo, I think one can afford it.

I have recently bought his second Atmos album: Retrospective, from the same web page.

If you get it, I would like to here from you how do you feel it, with respect to the Atmos Immersive sound.
 

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There is no way to differentiate one from the other from the encoded content, the information simply is lost.
We usually use the term "lossy" to describe compression codecs (DD vs TrueHD), but this is a good example of spatially lossy encoding, where the information maintains its uncompressed PCM nature during encoding and the information lost has to do with precise locations of objects.
 

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Heretical solution to the arrayed surrounds problem

The (current) upper bound for Atmos processing appears to be 9.1.6 (Trinnov aside), and we also seem to be converging on the idea that even with the ability to process more channels you can't get arrayed side surrounds.

For those of us that really prefer to have a side sound array for a 2 or 3 row home theatre - how bad would it be to simply array them yourselves - just duplicate the side surround outputs across 2 speakers? Obviously this eliminates pinpoint imaging of objects, but in practice, how bad would this effect be?
 

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The (current) upper bound for Atmos processing appears to be 9.1.6 (Trinnov aside), and we also seem to be converging on the idea that even with the ability to process more channels you can't get arrayed side surrounds.

For those of us that really prefer to have a side sound array for a 2 or 3 row home theatre - how bad would it be to simply array them yourselves - just duplicate the side surround outputs across 2 speakers? Obviously this eliminates pinpoint imaging of objects, but in practice, how bad would this effect be?

I would think, from my own listening experiences at trade expos like CEDIA that happen to have somewhat larger than 9.1.6 demos using the Trinnov, you could probably get away with two to three side surround pairs (plus Front Wides for the times they're used with Atmos or DTS Neural: X upmixing) and not miss bed arraying that much. Once you start expanding beyond something like 13.1.8, I believe the laws of diminishing returns kick in as it will start to be more apparent that many of the speakers along the sides and rear are sitting silently except for the occasional object fly by.



If what we are just now reading about is completely accurate, it's really kind of disappointing given that Dolby didn't bother to improve their Atmos encoding and decoding methodology for UHD Blu-ray since there is a bit more space to work with (especially given how many 4k discs don't use their full capacity anyway). They were working with regular Blu-ray spec constraints when they released home Atmos into the wild.
 

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...how bad would it be to simply array them yourselves - just duplicate the side surround outputs across 2 speakers? Obviously this eliminates pinpoint imaging of objects, but in practice, how bad would this effect be?

I don't know, seems like an L/C/R array images at C just fine.
 

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My Atmos Immersión experience.

Matt Darey – Wolf - Dolby Atmos music album.

It is not my favorite music at all, but I think It can be an Atmos reference Demo Disc, more even than the official demo ones. IMO, it is more "effective" than the acclaimed R.E.M. Automatic for the people, or the recent Abbey Road from Beatles.

I have a 7.1.4 setup with in-ceiling speakers at more or less the recommended 45° angle. With tweeters that can be aimed to the MLP. Standard Auddyssey calibration.

The whole album is very "immersive Atmos" with a very good sound Bubble and music effects moving on top of your head and in the surrounds. In the first song I hear the singer voice coming directly from above top ceiling. Seating at MLP, I lift my head and look at above and clearly notice her voice coming from the Top Surround Speaker just above me. BUT, that is an Auro-3D speaker that is not connected, when in Atmos configuration, but I really listen the sound coming just from that point above me, even makes me look at above.

When I stand up and closer to the TS speaker the immersion and phantom image from the 4 top atmos speakers disappear a little and the sound changes to a more traditional Surround coming from more lateral directions.

Really impressive which tells me that I may be getting enough Atmos "Immersion" with my setup, at least seated at MLP.
Hey, thank you for sharing your feedback . Which ceiling speakers do you have? Unfortunately my AVR only supports 7 speakers and I won't be upgrading it anytime soon :( I might buy a pair of ceiling speakers once I find a good deal here
 

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I have asked Trinnov about the feasibility of this arraying beds, and their answer is clear and conclusive. In short: Arraying of bed channels is not possible with consumer Atmos. This is not a limitation of the decoder but of the way it is encoded. The spatial coding mechanism merges bed and objects into dynamic objects. There is no way to differentiate one from the other from the encoded content, the information simply is lost.
I have no doubt that what Trinnov reports is 100% true, from their perspective.

However, I was not thinking that Trinnov, or anyone else, would be applying the array processing themselves. That is a task that only the core Amos renderer can perform, and that is the exclusive domain of Dolby to control. Usually Dolby provides "implementers" with object code that gets compiled and or optimized for the DSP platform. The kind of changes that would be needed in this case would need to happen at the source code level, and only Dolby has access to that.
 

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For those of us that really prefer to have a side sound array for a 2 or 3 row home theatre - how bad would it be to simply array them yourselves - just duplicate the side surround outputs across 2 speakers? Obviously this eliminates pinpoint imaging of objects, but in practice, how bad would this effect be?
Wouldn't be bad at all, considering it has been common practice for decades (in commercial cinemas and home theatres). Just have to apply some delays when doing it in home theatres since there are fewer speakers involved.
 

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I have no doubt that what Trinnov reports is 100% true, from their perspective.

However, I was not thinking that Trinnov, or anyone else, would be applying the array processing themselves. That is a task that only the core Amos renderer can perform, and that is the exclusive domain of Dolby to control. Usually Dolby provides "implementers" with object code that gets compiled and or optimized for the DSP platform. The kind of changes that would be needed in this case would need to happen at the source code level, and only Dolby has access to that.
Possibly, but for now I choose to believe that not even Dolby can retrieve "pure"bed channel info from a home Atmos encode. Some first hand experience from someone with a CP-850(C) that proves otherwise might of course change that view. Anyone ? :rolleyes:
 

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I doubt the CP850 can do it, as it likely uses the very same object code they license.

My theory is that Dolby might be able to do array processing In a new renderer implementation if they really wanted to, and if there's sufficient bread crumbs in the bitstream. A lot of ifs there. 😉
 

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AFAIK STRAIGHT won't play Atmos - it will only play the channels it is being fed (5.1 or 7.1). Atmos is embedded in the base channels and needs to be processed to be removed and sent to the heights.
That would explain why you don't get any height sound.
Straight does play ATMOS. Receiver shows it and also if I mute floor speakers, I can hear sound coming from ceiling. Issue isn't with sound not coming. It has to do with how loud it comes.
 

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I can confirm on my Yamaha AVR, I just tested, that the word "Atmos" is indeed illuminated in both "Dolby Surround" and "Straight" modes, but no others.
 

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Hey, thank you for sharing your feedback . Which ceiling speakers do you have? Unfortunately my AVR only supports 7 speakers and I won't be upgrading it anytime soon :( I might buy a pair of ceiling speakers once I find a good deal here
Bowers & Wilkins CCM683
 

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I can confirm on my Yamaha AVR, I just tested, that the word "Atmos" is indeed illuminated in both "Dolby Surround" and "Straight" modes, but no others.


Another reason I find Yamaha to be confusing. Dolby surround is DSU, upmixer for everyone else. DSU can’t be activated on an Atmos track. Except Yamaha...
 

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Works fine by me.
 

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Wouldn't it be possible to create a phantom side surround between the SS1 and SS2 speakers. That way you'd have an array of 2 for the side surround, and discrete objects could still address both speakers individually. It is actually sort of the same way as 5.1 + FW atmos works. Maybe this is possible with the Trinnov remapping?
 

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You have to buy it directly from his web site: https://www.mattdarey.com/ and you get a download of the choosed file format.

Be careful to buy the Atmos version, as there is also a stereo only version. You have to choose the file format .mp4, .m2ts or .mkv that can be well reproduced with your media player in your home cinema. You can find also a very cheap single song in the three formats to check which of them can be properly played in your system. The .mkv format is standard with video (static) and the Atmos track. Other album has two audio tracks (Atmos and surround 5.1).

I got the Wolf album for free when it was in promotion from his Facebook. Now you have to pay. It is a little bit expensive, but for having a very good Music Atmos reference Demo, I think one can afford it.

I have recently bought his second Atmos album: Retrospective, from the same web page.

If you get it, I would like to here from you how do you feel it, with respect to the Atmos Immersive sound.
Thanks my friend, I appreciate your help. I have not had much success downloading and playing hi-rez music in the past (I don't know why) so I was hoping that there was a disc that I could purchase. Oh well, maybe one will come out soon.

Cal68
 

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Wouldn't it be possible to create a phantom side surround between the SS1 and SS2 speakers.
Unfortunately you cannot activate SS1 and SS2 without first activating Side Surrounds (they are prerequisites, just like Front L/R are prerequisites for activating the Centre speaker).
That way you'd have an array of 2 for the side surround, and discrete objects could still address both speakers individually.
SS1 and SS2 do not get any channel information, only object info.
 
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