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Surround Back



Why can i have 1 Surround Back speaker with Auro 2 - 3D, with DTS, but not with Dolby ?

Is there a way around this so i cab still use 1 SB speaker in Dolby also ?



Thanks


Just curious. Why is is a point of interest for you?
Perhaps some rooms cannot accommodate 7.1 bed speakers. I didn't think my theater room could until I found a smaller width speaker that wouldn't block the doorway and got different furniture that let me squeeze another pair between the new rows (barely).

When I bought my previous receiver around 2006, there was 7.1 outputs on it, but nothing yet had 7.1 decoding support (that model didn't anyway). It did DTS-ES 6.1 discrete maximum and PLIIx 7.1 decoding. No TrueHD or DTS-HD Master recordings. A 6.1 layout made sense given the room limitations. Even though discrete 7.1 came out shortly thereafter (amidst the HD-DVD/BD war I chose to sit out with an Apple TV first gen with my mere 720p projector at the time), very few BDs actually supported 7.1 until Atmos came out (even fewer seemed to have discrete 6.1).

It's a small wonder Auro Technologies thought a 5.1 based height layout would be sufficient in 2010 given the unpopularity of 7.1 (even today I still see a lot comments suggesting they hear very little from the rear speakers and/or they'd prefer front wides to rear speakers. I certainly noticed very little from my rear center in 6.1 unless I used PLIIx and sat in the recliner that was behind them (it seemed to pull the sides into the back of the room by comparison instead of only in front of me). That may have been partially due to the "sounds like it's in front of you" psycho-acoustic effect of only using one rear center that sometimes occurs with some frequency sounds, although I found if I turned the speaker backwards or used a bipole, that no longer happened (former affected frequency response, though).

Rear effects are much more noticeable with many Atmos and X soundtracks for me these days, particularly with six (four bed and two overhead) speakers now behind my side surrounds and top middle speakers. There are also now three more chairs and two more rows to sit in than before so 6.1 beds weren't going to cut it any longer. But other rooms may not accommodate more and still I think 6.1 is preferable to 5.1 so I can imagine why he'd wan to keep it.
 

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Finally got my system all setup and calibrated correctly! Running a 7.2.4 (or 7.4.4 as i have 4 subs connected.) Watched San Andreas today, it has some amazing Atmos sounds in it. Had a few issues with my external amp for the rear heights, figured out i had to turn the db to +12 to get enough signal to them, works great now! The amaze and the other atmos demo on xbox really show what it can do, I am quite impressed. This forum has been great for helping me research and working out the kinks.
My system:

My system;
Marantz SR 6013
Klipsch R 28F fronts
klipsch RP450c center
Klipsch RP402s surrounds
Klipsch RP 140 sa rear height
Klipsch CDT 2650 C II ceilings
Klipsch R 51 rears
Klipsch R120 sw dual front subs
SVS PB 2000 Pro dual rear subs
Russound P75 for the rear heights
 

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Newb question...

I have a Yamaha RX-V685 and am using a 5.1.2 configuration, and from what I understand, I would set it to use the Straight decoder to get unprocessed sound when playing Atmos content from my Nvidia Shield using Plex via audio passthrough.

This works perfectly, however when I go to play stereo content, the vocal sounds come through the front right and left, and nothing through the centre, which doesn't sound good to me.

If I use the Dolby Surround decoder, the centre is used for vocals, and in general it sounds fine.

Question is, if I leave it on Dolby Surround all of the time (instead of Straight), how will this affect playing Atmos content from my Nvidia Shield using Plex (eg: will it treat Atmos audio as if Straight is still selected, or will it apply some sort of processing, or...?)?
 

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Is there an ideal crossover setting for our Atmos in ceiling speakers.? I have a dedicated rectangular room with a 4 speaker in ceiling Atmos setup being 7.1.4.They are Yamaha ic800 speakers, but just wondering what the crossovers on them speakers should be set at.
 

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Is there an ideal crossover setting for our Atmos in ceiling speakers.? I have a dedicated rectangular room with a 4 speaker in ceiling Atmos setup being 7.1.4.They are Yamaha ic800 speakers, but just wondering what the crossovers on them speakers should be set at.
They're good from 50Hz up. I'd cross them at 80Hz like everything else. It's what I use here with my overheads which are all rated something similar. It keeps the directional bass out of the subwoofer (e.g. If I set mine to 120Hz, I can plainly hear the Atmos helicopter demo deeper sounds coming straight from my sub, but at 80Hz, nothing.)
 

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Newb question...

I have a Yamaha RX-V685 and am using a 5.1.2 configuration, and from what I understand, I would set it to use the Straight decoder to get unprocessed sound when playing Atmos content from my Nvidia Shield using Plex via audio passthrough.

This works perfectly, however when I go to play stereo content, the vocal sounds come through the front right and left, and nothing through the centre, which doesn't sound good to me.

If I use the Dolby Surround decoder, the centre is used for vocals, and in general it sounds fine.

Question is, if I leave it on Dolby Surround all of the time (instead of Straight), how will this affect playing Atmos content from my Nvidia Shield using Plex (eg: will it treat Atmos audio as if Straight is still selected, or will it apply some sort of processing, or...?)?
I don't have a Yamaha, but on my Marantz, it usually doesn't screw up Atmos processing unless I specifically select "Neural X" from a Dolby source. Otherwise, Straight and most Surround settings still bring Atmos up automatically just fine here. It would be nice if there were a 3-channel stereo mode without having to disable other speakers....
 

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They're good from 50Hz up. I'd cross them at 80Hz like everything else. It's what I use here with my overheads which are all rated something similar. It keeps the directional bass out of the subwoofer (e.g. If I set mine to 120Hz, I can plainly hear the Atmos helicopter demo deeper sounds coming straight from my sub, but at 80Hz, nothing.)
Hey Magnum thanks for the reply. Audyssey Pro set the front 2 at 40hz and set the 2 rears at 60hz. I can hear them but not clearly.
 

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You can also download the DTS:X demos for "Sound Callout" and "Object Emulator" and they will show you precisely on the screen where the sounds are supposed to be coming from in a 7.1.4 setup.[/QUOTE]

So I re-ran Audyssey with the rear height amp assign and listened again. I heard everything this time...something must have negatively impacted my last calibration. I also noticed the surround and Surround backs more as a muted the height and atmos one time also...so...all is well! Thx for your time.

3 more quick questions: I noticed the doby atmos height speakers frequency curve on the high end (i.e., +3-4 db around 10k with then a dip and then slight bump again)...any benefit from exaggerating that peak and dip by a few db for the upfiring?

Also, read another thread that encouraged increasing the level of the 4 atmos channels overall by 3 db to give the height a more obvious presence...I did and it really brought it to life...especially up front. Thoughts?

Last, understanding the distance from atmos to ceiling is set into the amp assign settings pre-calibration, should I then calibrate and then manually adjust the speaker distance to me based on 1) distance from ceiling bounce location to my position or 2) assess the distance from my position to the actual speaker? Calibration seems to go back to the speaker instead of the ceiling bounce area.... I understand also is more about the speakers wave link bet it's adjusting than the actual distance but wasn't sure I should tweak further.
 

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Also, read another thread that encouraged increasing the level of the 4 atmos channels overall by 3 db to give the height a more obvious presence...I did and it really brought it to life...especially up front. Thoughts?

Last, understanding the distance from Atmos to ceiling is set into the amp assign settings pre-calibration, should I then calibrate and then manually adjust the speaker distance to me based on 1) distance from ceiling bounce location to my position or 2) assess the distance from my position to the actual speaker? Calibration seems to go back to the speaker instead of the ceiling bounce area.... I understand also is more about the speakers wave link bet it's adjusting than the actual distance but wasn't sure I should tweak further.
I have 4 In-ceiling speakers configured as TOP. After run Audyssey I had the "correct" distances and level set according to the Audyssey microphone is "hearing".

When I listen to the "test tones" from the AVR (Denon 8500) I more or less hear the same volume level the four speakers Top Front and Top Rear.

BUT, running the Atmos Helicopter Demo I don't hear correctly the same volume and the Helicopter flying around in a circular and regular fashion.

I ended up with the Top Fronts manually up 2.0 and 3.0 dB and the Top Front Left, that was aiming to my MLP position, just changed to aim to downwards to the floor. I think the different room shape, near wall at the left and a more open space in the living room at the right makes that difference in listening for me.

After that manually adjusts I then can hear the Helicopter almost nearly circling around at the same volume rear and front and at the sides.

So, I think it is a matter of your hearing and the room shape. Take an Atmos demo as a reference and play with the settings to find the most pleasant immersive effect for you.
 
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I have 4 In-ceiling speakers configured as TOP. After run Audyssey I had the "correct" distances and level set according to the Audyssey microphone is "hearing".

When I listen to the "test tones" from the AVR (Denon 8500) I more or less hear the same volume level the four speakers Top Front and Top Rear.

BUT, running the Atmos Helicopter Demo I don't hear correctly the same volume and the Helicopter flying around in a circular and regular fashion.

I ended up with the Top Fronts manually up 2.0 and 3.0 dB and the Top Front Left, that was aiming to my MLP position, just changed to aim to downwards to the floor. I think the different room shape, near wall at the left and a more open space in the living room at the right makes that difference in listening for me.

After that manually adjusts I then can hear the Helicopter almost nearly circling around at the same volume rear and front and at the sides.

So, I think it is a matter of your hearing and the room shape. Take an Atmos demo as a reference and play with the settings to find the most pleasant immersive effect for you.

Are you running Dynamic EQ? I believe Dynamic EQ could explain the higher level of top rear. I believe Dynamic EQ increases the rear top but not front top speakers.
 

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You can't use the internal volume settings to gauge levels after you run Audyssey as it may seriously alter them. It's one of the reasons I now use Schrodinger frequency limits. It was doing some strange things with the side surround levels, like setting them low and then cranking them up with the curve instead which made on/off Audyssey very different in output, even though once set at the right levels they sounded nearly identical anyway. It seems like tall chair backs and other furniture items can really make Audyssey behave oddly.

In any case, it's best to use the speaker level demos to check your volume levels after calibration and adjust from there. I often go one step further and disable the subwoofer too, particularly if it's set above normal so it doesn't weight the speaker readings. Always use A-weighting at the very least for non-subs.

I used to think turning up overheads helped, but getting the other levels dialed in, it just seems to exaggerate certain things. I think certain effects become almost holographic when everything is right where it should be, particularly here with 17.1 speakers.

The Dolby "Silence" demo becomes uncanny, almost creepy holographic at the start with my front wides and surround #1 speakers just so. With my eyes shut, that zoom with the hand cranking box at the start sounds almost like someone pulling a wagon from the back of the room straight up through the middle of the room back to front quite evenly paced through the three rows of centered chairs and passes right through me like a ghost on its way to the front center speaker at the screen! It reminds me of those binaural headphone recordings where you get a haircut or something and you'd swear it was really happening with your eyes closed.

The effect subtleties are lost if the levels are off or the wagon like squeak sounds uneven in motion. It's easier to set with fewer speakers but less holographic sounding, particularly across a 24' long room. It's also a very quiet effect compared to most. The audience claps at the end are silky smooth from starting in the back and similarly moving forward into the room all around you with no jumps, but like a curtain of rain moving forward until it's rainy all around. The Atmos Rainstorm demo does something similar front to back with a rain curtain overhead and all around.
 

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Are you running Dynamic EQ? I believe Dynamic EQ could explain the higher level of top rear. I believe Dynamic EQ increases the rear top but not front top speakers.
Yes, I have Dynamic EQ activated. It sounds better and warming for me as I don't use to run at high volume levels.

EDITED: Next test will be with Helicopter Demo, without Dynamic EQ and see differences with the default Audyssey levels.
 

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You can't use the internal volume settings to gauge levels after you run Audyssey as it may seriously alter them.

I change the speaker levels using the Option button on the remote and then selecting the channel levels while I'm watching a source. It is source input dependent but the altered settings are easily rolled back to the default proper "Audyssey" ones. I do not alter the Speaker level settings that have been put by Audyssey to keep them as a reference. I use same method to give some 3 to 5 dB more to the Central Speaker when listening films with dialog too low and explosions too high, for the average MV.


... It's one of the reasons I now use Schrodinger frequency limits.
I do not exactly know what are you referring to. Could you please explain?
 

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I do not exactly know what are you referring to. Could you please explain?
This article can explain it better than I can about how bass is affected differently in rooms than higher ranges. (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1)

But basically, the idea is that Audyssey at higher levels is more like correcting the speaker and/or the whole room rather than just the initial wavefront. Some think this sounds less natural or whatever than letting the room do its thing and expecting the first arrival from the speaker will be pretty good if it's a pretty good speaker above the 200Hz (or so) range. I can't argue too much as it certainly didn't "hurt" the sound here to switch to below 250Hz only.

If anything, the surrounds sound much closer to each other now, particularly the extracted "top middle" ones which I would have had to buy an external box to correct separately. Well, they're derived from the front/rear heights, so if those are changed, it affects the top middle as well, but not in a good way. Instead, I got a 3rd party set of fabric tweeters for the front height and side heights that have excellent off-axis response and wide dispersion. This improved the timbre change at high frequencies far more than Audyssey did. Now I can't hear any real difference as the Atmos helicopter circles the ceiling between front, middle and rear heights. It just sounds like a continuous sound (bleeding a bit from the extracted speakers also improved panning as Pro Logic 1 is a bit hard on the steering mechanism for center output; that made it behave more like Pro Logic II Music mode with nice even continuous pans). So between the two changes, the overhead layer is now as smooth as the bed level, IMO. The side heights are dual driver offset speakers in a bipolar configuration, though (front facing the front row and back facing the other two rows) so I really have 8 sets of drivers overhead and 11 on the floor even though they're technically 17 speakers (plus a 15" sub).
 

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Indeed, and almost every brand is claiming to have "neutral" sounding speakers. :eek:

You have a "creative" setup :)
Do you know a way around this:

Why can i have 1 Surround Back speaker with Auro 2 - 3D, with DTS, but not with Dolby ?
Is there a way around this so i can still use 1 SB speaker in Dolby also ?

Thanks

What AVR are you using? I have the SR7012, and am running 6.3.4. Audyssey had no problem with the single back surround. Select 7.1.x, and Audyssey will automatically detect that you have only one speaker in back and calibrate accordingly. SB right and left channels image properly between the single rear and the side surrounds.

EDITED to include screenshot.

As you can see, the single back surround is shown, and active, even with a Dolby ATMOS source.



View attachment 2676736
 

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This article can explain it better than I can about how bass is affected differently in rooms than higher ranges. (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1)

OK. I know! It is Schroeder (physicist of acoustics and computer graphics), not Schrodinger (the physicist of some quantum mechanics theories).

Yes I think i'm doing that when I use the Audyssy MultEQ App to limit the Audyssey frequency correction to 1kHz. Audyssey filters compensate Bass (up to 1 KHz in my current settings) to be more even at MLP, but leave the medium and high frequencies (above 1 KHz) as is letting the room make its effect. Sometimes it is supposed that the Audyssey Room correction of high frequencies gives an artificial (metallic??) sound and it is better to avoid it.

I know that Schroeder frequency for most rooms is about 250 Hz, but I chose 1 KHz because was the range that was said by some tutorials and posts that some people are using.

Eventually I will compare and adjust more, but for now I have decided to stop testing and enjoy listening content... Life is so short...
 

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What AVR are you using? I have the SR7012, and am running 6.3.4. Audyssey had no problem with the single back surround. Select 7.1.x, and Audyssey will automatically detect that you have only one speaker in back and calibrate accordingly. SB right and left channels image properly between the single rear and the side surrounds.

EDITED to include screenshot.

As you can see, the single back surround is shown, and active, even with a Dolby ATMOS source.



View attachment 2676736
Hi, correct, with Atmos, it will not be active with DSU where AuroMatic and NeuralX will use 1 SB speaker.
 

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What AVR are you using? I have the SR7012, and am running 6.3.4. Audyssey had no problem with the single back surround. Select 7.1.x, and Audyssey will automatically detect that you have only one speaker in back and calibrate accordingly. SB right and left channels image properly between the single rear and the side surrounds.
That picture shows Atmos, though. Atmos has always worked fine with surround back (as it's one of the rendered speakers in the Atmos list). It's DSU that doesn't seem to work with only 6.1 speakers. Have you tried DSU and actually listened at the rear speaker for sound?



OK. I know! It is Schroeder (physicist of acoustics and computer graphics), not Schrodinger (the physicist of some quantum mechanics theories).
Yeah, I always get those names screwed up (I keep thinking of Schroeder as the Peanut character that plays the piano. ;) )

Yes I think i'm doing that when I use the Audyssy MultEQ App to limit the Audyssey frequency correction to 1kHz. Audyssey filters compensate Bass (up to 1 KHz in my current settings) to be more even at MLP, but leave the medium and high frequencies (above 1 KHz) as is letting the room make its effect. Sometimes it is supposed that the Audyssey Room correction of high frequencies gives an artificial (metallic??) sound and it is better to avoid it.

I know that Schroeder frequency for most rooms is about 250 Hz, but I chose 1 KHz because was the range that was said by some tutorials and posts that some people are using.

Eventually I will compare and adjust more, but for now I have decided to stop testing and enjoy listening content... Life is so short...
Audyssey is basically an EQ system (really complex one, but still EQ) so how it sounds is highly dependent on a number of factors (flat doesn't always sound better to the ear) and objects can cause it to raise/lower some higher frequencies. I actually get a slightly more sibilant sound with it off now than on, but the first time I used it was far worse sibilance so that tells me higher frequencies were all over the place. It's not even easy to measure higher frequencies precisely with sweeps because the wavelengths are so small, they dip/peak in inches (i.e. move your head or the mic slightly and it's up/down). I decided to trust my PSB speakers' tweeters instead. The speakers are all rated +/- 1.5dB across most of range (80Hz up) so beyond bass, they're already pretty accurate and I hear no timbre changes (at least after changing the side heights to use better off-axis response tweeters) so I'm happy with it as it is now.
 

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Yes, I have Dynamic EQ activated. It sounds better and warming for me as I don't use to run at high volume levels.

EDITED: Next test will be with Helicopter Demo, without Dynamic EQ and see differences with the default Audyssey levels.

I think you will find the levels even out when you run the helicopter demo without Dynamic EQ. I agree Dynamic EQ can have benefit especially at lower levels but most find the increase in surround levels overly aggressive especially with only rear surrounds being increased. I personally have a love/hate relationship and go back and forth with Dynamic EQ. I especially like the way it handles sub.
 

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Looks like I'm back to the drawing board on my Atmos speaker install. There are 2 ceiling joists running side to side at the rear of my HT about 8" apart and starting 8" from the rear wall, so the farthest back I can mount the 9" round coax Definitive Technology in-ceiling speakers I have is pretty much 0 degrees back from our heads although they would be closer to the side walls and not directly overhead. Still, I don't want to cut large holes in my ceiling and find out it doesn't sound good. So I'm thinking maybe something like the SVS prime elevation model might be better, and if that's the case should I use those for the front Atmos as well and abort on the in-ceiling speakers all together. DT doesn't make anything like this, and even if they did all my system speakers are the older BP series anyway. The SVS uses a similar aluminum dome tweeter to the ones in all my Def Tech BP's. Thoughts and opinions?
 
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