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@Kliptick , owning 2014 and 2015 Sammy flagship TVs, and passing on 2016 and 2017s, I wouldn't think you could get Atmos out of the Q80, but I could be wrong; a better place to search/ask is the dedicated thread for your TV.
 

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Paradigm 25S surrounds for Dolby Atmos

Hi Folks


I know Dolby recommends monopoles for Atmos (correct me if I am wrong) and I currently have Paradigm 15b's as side surrounds...I just bought a pair of Paradigm 25s's (bipoles)...My room is 12 wide and 17 deep with seating 12 feet back (ie.5 ft available behind the seating)...


Where should I put the bipoles? Back wall or move the 15b's to the back wall and use the bipoles on the side wall? I only have 1 row of seating with 2 chairs and I am in the sweetspot 100 percent of the time...


If the bipoles are on the side walls, will I still "feel" the discreet placement of Atmos on the sides?


Thanks folks...
 

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@MagnumX, so if I want to have a 5.2.2 setup, is it better to place the pair of atmos speakers on the side walls near the MLP or as front heights?
As long as you can get them high enough (like SVS) and your ceiling is close to 8' or more, I'd go with the high side wall speakers as you'll get sounds directly overhead. With only front heights, they'll be in front of you and less noticeable as a result.

Now in a small room, front/rear heights work fine overhead, but as the room gets too long (say >15' or so), you either need a top middle of some kind to bridge the angles (preferably always active like extracted or matrixed as many Atmos tracks won't use them and the DTS 11-channel limit on the other end prevents them; I use extracted) or "tops" speakers or even side heights like SVS spaced out into the room so the angle between them isn't too large (i.e. Side heights mounted the same distances into the room as tops).

With one row of seats, I'd tend to go seat orientated, but with more than one row I'd lean more towards room symmetry (e.g. My top middle/side heights are at the middle of the room (two sets of drivers facing forward and backward) with side surrounds directly below them and front/rear heights at the front/back of the room within a couple feet and then front wides in front of the front row, sides behind it and surround #1 between the second and third row and rear surrounds behind that so everyone gets surrounded.
 

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Hi Folks


I know Dolby recommends monopoles for Atmos (correct me if I am wrong) and I currently have Paradigm 15b's as side surrounds...I just bought a pair of Paradigm 25s's (bipoles)...My room is 12 wide and 17 deep with seating 12 feet back (ie.5 ft available behind the seating)...


Where should I put the bipoles? Back wall or move the 15b's to the back wall and use the bipoles on the side wall? I only have 1 row of seating with 2 chairs and I am in the sweetspot 100 percent of the time...


If the bipoles are on the side walls, will I still "feel" the discreet placement of Atmos on the sides?


Thanks folks...
Bipoles are fine in the back drivers facing forward/backward. This gives them some extra sense of space and may improve the imaging as sounding more palpable in space. Just don't push them right up against the back wall. I'd leave at least 12" for a bipole and 3.5' for a dipole used that way.

You can use them on the sides, but sitting in the null side between drivers doesn't image as well, IMO as a monopole, but if the are used between rows like my side heights, one set of drivers face the front and the other the back. As long as the seats are in the "on-axis" part of the dispersion, it just sounds lie having a monopole facing each direction (kind of like having surround #1 for the rows behind it and side surround in front). But with one row of seats, I don't recommend it used that way.

In short, I'd put them as rear surrounds 12"-16" off the back wall drivers facing front/back towards the MLP and back wall for a more spacious rear sound.
 

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Bipoles are fine in the back drivers facing forward/backward. This gives them some extra sense of space and may improve the imaging as sounding more palpable in space. Just don't push them right up against the back wall. I'd leave at least 12" for a bipole and 3.5' for a dipole used that way.

You can use them on the sides, but sitting in the null side between drivers doesn't image as well, IMO as a monopole, but if the are used between rows like my side heights, one set of drivers face the front and the other the back. As long as the seats are in the "on-axis" part of the dispersion, it just sounds lie having a monopole facing each direction (kind of like having surround #1 for the rows behind it and side surround in front). But with one row of seats, I don't recommend it used that way.

In short, I'd put them as rear surrounds 12"-16" off the back wall drivers facing front/back towards the MLP and back wall for a more spacious rear sound.
Thanks really appreciate the help here...I'll try to provide more context...17' long room, and seating 12 feet back leaving 5 feet between seating and rear wall...In these 5 feet I'll have side surrounds, my 2 ceiling rears, and then rear surrounds...If I follow your suggestion of essentially placing them sideways 12" off the back wall they will essentially be right under my ceiling rears and I only have 88" ceilings...Is that common to place bipoles sideways or are you suggesting given my particular "predicament" sideways will be best? I'm not sure aesthetically I will win any points...I was "hoping" someone would say side wall is fine, even with 1 row of seating, and move my monopoles to the rear wall...But please don't tell me what I want to hear...What would the downside be on the sidewall for the bipoles? Thanks again...


Edit: I know you mentioned the null but I didn't think bipoles had a null, only dipoles...
 

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@asharma - It's not technically a null on a bipole. I just don't know what else to call it. The point is you are sitting between two sets of drivers and the are typically not facing you so response isn't usually as good and you're sitting between a two speaker array so it will sound like a monopole facing you in terms of imaging, but not as clear in terms of frequency response.

Def Tech makes bipole for front/back use (i.e.One driver faces you and the other faces the rear wall). Used like this, they sound more spacious like a natural dipole radiator (e.g. My Carver ribbon speakers upstairs are dipoles used front back and sit like four feet from the front wall to avoid cancelling themselves out) except dipoles don't need to sit so far away from the reflecting wall as the are in phase with each other.

You can use the bipoles on the wall if you like, but you might want to space them forwards or backwards relative to the seating so one driver acts more like a monopole (why mine as side heights are between rows of seats so drivers face each set of seats instead of sitting between the two drivers like you do with surround dipoles.). The frequency response will be better.

If you only have five feet behind you, either put the bipoles on the side walls a few feet in front of you or just behind you with the rears close to the back walls.
 

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@asharma - It's not technically a null on a bipole. I just don't know what else to call it. The point is you are sitting between two sets of drivers and the are typically not facing you so response isn't usually as good and you're sitting between a two speaker array so it will sound like a monopole facing you in terms of imaging, but not as clear in terms of frequency response.

Def Tech makes bipole for front/back use (i.e.One driver faces you and the other faces the rear wall). Used like this, they sound more spacious like a natural dipole radiator (e.g. My Carver ribbon speakers upstairs are dipoles used front back and sit like four feet from the front wall to avoid cancelling themselves out) except dipoles don't need to sit so far away from the reflecting wall as the are in phase with each other.

You can use the bipoles on the wall if you like, but you might want to space them forwards or backwards relative to the seating so one driver acts more like a monopole (why mine as side heights are between rows of seats so drivers face each set of seats instead of sitting between the two drivers like you do with surround dipoles.). The frequency response will be better.

If you only have five feet behind you, either put the bipoles on the side walls a few feet in front of you or just behind you with the rears close to the back walls.
Thanks again, in your last sentence u mention behind me with the rears close to the back walls. Do u still mean place them "sideways" and 12" away from the back wall? I'm sensing I may have been better off just buying another pair of monopoles for the rears and leaving my side monopoles in place...Would that have been better? I have to admit I do like the aesthetic of the side wall with the bipole and like you said perhaps have them forward a bit so the rear driver is firing into my seating row...
 

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@MagnumX, so if I want to have a 5.2.2 setup, is it better to place the pair of atmos speakers on the side walls near the MLP or as front heights?
As long as you can get them high enough (like SVS) and your ceiling is close to 8' or more, I'd go with the high side wall speakers as you'll get sounds directly overhead. With only front heights, they'll be in front of you and less noticeable as a result.
I see. My ceiling is 10', and I have one row 12' from the screen. Thank you!
 

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@asharma - It's not technically a null on a bipole. I just don't know what else to call it. The point is you are sitting between two sets of drivers and the are typically not facing you so response isn't usually as good and you're sitting between a two speaker array so it will sound like a monopole facing you in terms of imaging, but not as clear in terms of frequency response.

Def Tech makes bipole for front/back use (i.e.One driver faces you and the other faces the rear wall). Used like this, they sound more spacious like a natural dipole radiator (e.g. My Carver ribbon speakers upstairs are dipoles used front back and sit like four feet from the front wall to avoid cancelling themselves out) except dipoles don't need to sit so far away from the reflecting wall as the are in phase with each other.

You can use the bipoles on the wall if you like, but you might want to space them forwards or backwards relative to the seating so one driver acts more like a monopole (why mine as side heights are between rows of seats so drivers face each set of seats instead of sitting between the two drivers like you do with surround dipoles.). The frequency response will be better.

If you only have five feet behind you, either put the bipoles on the side walls a few feet in front of you or just behind you with the rears close to the back walls.
Thanks again, in your last sentence u mention behind me with the rears close to the back walls. Do u still mean place them "sideways" and 12" away from the back wall? I'm sensing I may have been better off just buying another pair of monopoles for the rears and leaving my side monopoles in place...Would that have been better? I have to admit I do like the aesthetic of the side wall with the bipole and like you said perhaps have them forward a bit so the rear driver is firing into my seating row...
I'd have to see what they look like to be sure, but with two sets five feet behind you they're probably ok to use as you originally imagined. Are the angled bipoles (like 50-70 degrees apart) or 180 degrees apart (front and back drivers)?

I was thinking of my front/back BP10 bipoles for front/back, but I'm getting he impression these ar all angled. I also assume you are saying all four surrounds are bipoles? I apparently wasn't paying close enough attention I've looked at so many setups recently and my phone kind of sucks for going back to look (doesn't seem to like the mobile interface too well; it reloads a lot).

The bottom line is as long as you're getting a good on-axis response in terms of clarity, it'll probably do ok. I can't guarantee they'll sound as good as straight monopoles in terms of pinpoint imaging, but certainly my S50 PSBs do OK bridging my front/rear heights.
 

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I'd have to see what they look like to be sure, but with two sets five feet behind you they're probably ok to use as you originally imagined. Are the angled bipoles (like 50-70 degrees apart) or 180 degrees apart (front and back drivers)?

I was thinking of my front/back BP10 bipoles for front/back, but I'm getting he impression these ar all angled. I also assume you are saying all four surrounds are bipoles? I apparently wasn't paying close enough attention I've looked at so many setups recently and my phone kind of sucks for going back to look (doesn't seem to like the mobile interface too well; it reloads a lot).

The bottom line is as long as you're getting a good on-axis response in terms of clarity, it'll probably do ok. I can't guarantee they'll sound as good as straight monopoles in terms of pinpoint imaging, but certainly my S50 PSBs do OK bridging my front/rear heights.
Thanks, the existing sided surrounds are monopoles, the yet to arrive speakers are bipoles...I was planning on moving the existing monopoles to the back wall and using the yet to arrive bipoles on the side wall...I’ll try to attach a pic of the bipoles...here goes
 

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Here's my HT using Def Tech bipole BPVX's for both side and back surrounds. The smaller BPX's on the outer back walls are for Yamaha's "presence" effects channels and another pair is mirrored on the front wall for the front "presence" effects channels. They are 4' down from the 10' ceiling per Yamaha's specs back in the day, so they are too low to use effectively as height speakers. The side BPVX's are placed in between the rear MLP riser seats and the lower secondary seating. The back surrounds are on stands in between seats 1/2 & 3/4 in the MLP recliners. It creates a decent bubble in the MLP. Just need 4 top speakers now. Heading up into my attic to take a few more measurements before I cut four 9" round holes in my ceiling. I have to say that I'm a bit nervous about this.
 

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Here's my HT using Def Tech bipole BPVX's for both side and back surrounds. The smaller BPX's on the outer back walls are for Yamaha's "presence" effects channels and another pair is mirrored on the front wall for the front "presence" effects channels. They are 4' down from the 10' ceiling per Yamaha's specs back in the day, so they are too low to use effectively as height speakers. The side BPVX's are placed in between the rear MLP riser seats and the lower secondary seating. The back surrounds are on stands in between seats 1/2 & 3/4 in the MLP recliners. It creates a decent bubble in the MLP. Just need 4 top speakers now. Heading up into my attic to take a few more measurements before I cut four 9" round holes in my ceiling. I have to say that I'm a bit nervous about this.
Are u running Atmos now? If u r, do u feel u r getting pinpoint accuracy from the side bipoles?
 

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Are u running Atmos now? If u r, do u feel u r getting pinpoint accuracy from the side bipoles?
Yes, because of the angled design on the Def Techs and the placement, the arrays on the rear of the side surrounds and the inside of the back surrounds aim directly at the 2 center seats where my wife and I sit.
 

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Yes, because of the angled design on the Def Techs and the placement, the arrays on the rear of the side surrounds and the inside of the back surrounds aim directly at the 2 center seats where my wife and I sit.
Thanks, So for your side surrounds, you have them positioned a little more forward that your MLP so the rear drivers of the side surrounds fire directly at the MLP? If yes, what’s the audio implication of having the front drivers of your side surrounds in front of your MLP?
 

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Thanks, So for your side surrounds, you have them positioned a little more forward that your MLP so the rear drivers of the side surrounds fire directly at the MLP? If yes, what’s the audio implication of having the front drivers of your side surrounds in front of your MLP?
Yes, that's what I was trying to suggest when I said either a little forward or backward of the seating area so a set of tweeters and midrange face the seating area. With the other speakers behind, you having the sides a bit in front of you actually works well, IMO. My 2nd row sounds like that and it's probably got freakier surround effects than the front row, although the main stage isn't quite as hard hitting (the volume starts dropping off towards the back and vice versa so it's hard to get all seats "perfect". I actually thought about storing two sets of settings on USB for "compromised for 6 seats in 3 rows" and "optmiized for the front 3 seats. It would basically just crank the front channels a few db and reduce the back channels a few dB so it's more even in the middle row and rear "seat" (hard to call it a 'row' with one seat back there, but it is a centered seat so the surround is quite good).

Here's a little "virtual slideshow" of my home theater room (going in a circle) with the layout diagram I made (not 100% up to date for decorations, but the theater equipment is the same). You can see the S50 bipole wall speakers sitting above the monopole B15 below it just behind the first row and then another B15 "surround #1 ) between the second and third rows with the X1T rears and CS500 Rear heights above them in the back. There's B15s for front wides and front heights (on the bookshelf) as well. They all use the same drivers except the X1T/CS500 in the back and they're just updated drivers from a slightly newer lineup but sound quite similar in practice (all rated +/- 1.5dB across the on-axis main range of each speaker). Notice how the surround and wides, etc. are between the rows instead of on the sides. That let me put the first and second rows much closer to the walls than would otherwise work and thus otherwise I wouldn't be able to fit even six recliners in the room (3 are powered lift chairs I got on sale, BTW, another is a powered massage/heat chair (the MLP) plus two oversized "plush" manual recliners (right front and center mid) so lots of comfy seating options in my Geriatric Theater Mark 2.0. :D
 

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Yes, that's what I was trying to suggest when I said either a little forward or backward of the seating area so a set of tweeters and midrange face the seating area. With the other speakers behind, you having the sides a bit in front of you actually works well, IMO. My 2nd row sounds like that and it's probably got freakier surround effects than the front row, although the main stage isn't quite as hard hitting (the volume starts dropping off towards the back and vice versa so it's hard to get all seats "perfect". I actually thought about storing two sets of settings on USB for "compromised for 6 seats in 3 rows" and "optmiized for the front 3 seats. It would basically just crank the front channels a few db and reduce the back channels a few dB so it's more even in the middle row and rear "seat" (hard to call it a 'row' with one seat back there, but it is a centered seat so the surround is quite good).

Here's a little "virtual slideshow" of my home theater room (going in a circle) with the layout diagram I made (not 100% up to date for decorations, but the theater equipment is the same). You can see the S50 bipole wall speakers sitting above the monopole B15 below it just behind the first row and then another B15 "surround #1 ) between the second and third rows with the X1T rears and CS500 Rear heights above them in the back. There's B15s for front wides and front heights (on the bookshelf) as well. They all use the same drivers except the X1T/CS500 in the back and they're just updated drivers from a slightly newer lineup but sound quite similar in practice (all rated +/- 1.5dB across the on-axis main range of each speaker). Notice how the surround and wides, etc. are between the rows instead of on the sides. That let me put the first and second rows much closer to the walls than would otherwise work and thus otherwise I wouldn't be able to fit even six recliners in the room (3 are powered lift chairs I got on sale, BTW, another is a powered massage/heat chair (the MLP) plus two oversized "plush" manual recliners (right front and center mid) so lots of comfy seating options in my Geriatric Theater Mark 2.0. :D
Wholly crap, THAT is a boatload of speakers...you must feel totally surrounded! Very nice!

As per your advice, I think I’m going to move the monopoles to rear wall and put the bipoles on the side walls just ahead of the MLP so the rear tweeter and midrange fires into the MLP...that, as you say, when combined with rear ceilings and rear surrounds should work well...What’s your opinion on the forward firing driver being in front of the MLP? What’s the implication when the Atmos signal hits the bipole side surround?
 

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Wholly crap, THAT is a boatload of speakers...you must feel totally surrounded! Very nice!
Thanks. I kind of went nuts finding a way to stuff speakers in every nook and cranny. But it really improves off-axis imaging for the other seats plus looks pretty cool. There aren't too many 17.1 (or more) home theaters out there (yet). I've kind of gone nuts with the movie poster/prop theming though. I wouldn't want to guess how much I have in props at this point (that Cross of Coronado alone back there hanging by the Raiders poster was around $400 with 24K gold plating, real pearls, etc. and looks 99.9% just like the one made for the movie, made by a guy that goes by "Relic Maker" on the RPF (prop) site. I paid just over $800 for the REAL pearl/black touch tip clock/watch lighter from the Maltese Falcon from Sam Spade's desk in mint condition. Ridiculous, I know. :D


As per your advice, I think I’m going to move the monopoles to rear wall and put the bipoles on the side walls just ahead of the MLP so the rear tweeter and midrange fires into the MLP...that, as you say, when combined with rear ceilings and rear surrounds should work well...What’s your opinion on the forward firing driver being in front of the MLP? What’s the implication when the Atmos signal hits the bipole side surround?
Well, it's going to send a sound wave towards the front of the room and create a reflection for better (or more likely worse). Without any seats up there, it's an unnecessary one. I suppose you could always disconnect the drivers if you're worried about them muddying the sound (on my S50, you just unscrew the screws around the drivers and they come forward out the front and are just friction fit tab connectors (I changed the tweeters to extremely good off-axis fabric tweeters for front height and side height since I couldn't tilt them down much or at all, respectively, which gave me better response, but I could have easily disabled the drivers on one side inside of 5 minutes each if I wanted to. But mine point towards front/rear rows so they're both on).
 

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Thanks. I kind of went nuts finding a way to stuff speakers in every nook and cranny. But it really improves off-axis imaging for the other seats plus looks pretty cool. There aren't too many 17.1 (or more) home theaters out there (yet). I've kind of gone nuts with the movie poster/prop theming though. I wouldn't want to guess how much I have in props at this point (that Cross of Coronado alone back there hanging by the Raiders poster was around $400 with 24K gold plating, real pearls, etc. and looks 99.9% just like the one made for the movie, made by a guy that goes by "Relic Maker" on the RPF (prop) site. I paid just over $800 for the REAL pearl/black touch tip clock/watch lighter from the Maltese Falcon from Sam Spade's desk in mint condition. Ridiculous, I know. :D


Well, it's going to send a sound wave towards the front of the room and create a reflection for better (or more likely worse). Without any seats up there, it's an unnecessary one. I suppose you could always disconnect the drivers if you're worried about them muddying the sound (on my S50, you just unscrew the screws around the drivers and they come forward out the front and are just friction fit tab connectors (I changed the tweeters to extremely good off-axis fabric tweeters for front height and side height since I couldn't tilt them down much or at all, respectively, which gave me better response, but I could have easily disabled the drivers on one side inside of 5 minutes each if I wanted to. But mine point towards front/rear rows so they're both on).
It’s a crazy hobby so go crazy on the props you want...there is nooooo way that I could possibly justify all the $$ spent on this hobby when it would be much cheaper to just go to the theatre :)

Uggg, so the front firing driver “sounds” like it will be a problem...I’m thinking I should just go buy another set of monopoles :( and scrap the whole bipole idea...I’m thinking bipoles are made for multiple rows where you want dispersion but not for a single row of seating...
 

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It’s a crazy hobby so go crazy on the props you want...there is nooooo way that I could possibly justify all the $$ spent on this hobby when it would be much cheaper to just go to the theatre :)

Uggg, so the front firing driver “sounds” like it will be a problem...I’m thinking I should just go buy another set of monopoles :( and scrap the whole bipole idea...I’m thinking bipoles are made for multiple rows where you want dispersion but not for a single row of seating...
Don't be so hard on yourself. Just like life, Home Theater at times requires some compromises. Unless you are building a theater totally from scratch without any restrictions, have a wealth of knowledge in acoustics and physics, and carry the Nostradamus gene to forecast future technology changes.:D
 
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