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3. I've seen people do #2 (ha, that sounds funny, I see people do number two) with bookshelf speakers by putting the bookshelf on its side, but I recall they also had to rotate the Tweeter 90° because of the dispersion pattern of the Tweeter.
That's what I have. I have five each Hsu HB-1 Mk2 in a 5.2 system. I rotated the center's horn tweeter. I verified with Hsu Research that it wouldn't affect the warranty. I'd think it wouldn't be necessary with a dome tweeter.
 

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So you didnt have to toe them in right between the middle seats, or even dead center of seats two and three, but the outside ear of the two middle seats?

I can definitely toe in, just it wont be all the way. Do you remember how good it was when you toed in maybe halfway, or 40%? Your toe in now is like 90% let's say, 95%, of toeing all the way to the center of the listener's head. What if you only did 40% or 45%? Would you lose a lot or is that close enough that the cone of sound is still catch the central listeners at near full impact or something?

That three center channel idea is actually brilliant. But then I have all three front speakers like 2-3 feet off the ground. At least then they'd be consistent though.

I will probably toe in as much as I can to not block the screen, not know what Im missing, hopefully be happy with it, and keep my eyes open for sales on good tower speakers that dont have so much depth.
I did toe them in to point exactly dead center between seats two and three at one point. That would be the center of the room. But for me, I felt that the best sound across seats two and three (most of the time it's just the two inner seats being used) was when I towed the left speaker pointing at the left ear of the person in seat two, and the right speaker pointing at the right ear of the person in seat 3.


That's what I have. I have five each Hsu HB-1 Mk2 in a 5.2 system. I rotated the center's horn tweeter. I verified with Hsu Research that it wouldn't affect the warranty. I'd think it wouldn't be necessary with a dome tweeter.
I even considered that approach myself before I went with the towers. Plus, I think the three speakers under the screen look kick ass :)

-T
 

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I did toe them in to point exactly dead center between seats two and three at one point. That would be the center of the room. But for me, I felt that the best sound across seats two and three (most of the time it's just the two inner seats being used) was when I towed the left speaker pointing at the left ear of the person in seat two, and the right speaker pointing at the right ear of the person in seat 3.




I even considered that approach myself before I went with the towers. Plus, I think the three speakers under the screen look kick ass :)

-T
Is it not a problem for sound quality to have all three front speakers that low to the ground? Or is it an improvement to have them all the same height as opposed to one center chan and two towers?
 

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Is it not a problem for sound quality to have all three front speakers that low to the ground? Or is it an improvement to have them all the same height as opposed to one center chan and two towers?
My last reply. I kind of wish you would create a separate thread we'll go to the audio theory area. if it's okay for the center to be that low, it's okay for the left and right to be that low.

-T
 
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My last reply. I kind of wish you would create a separate thread we'll go to the audio theory area. if it's okay for the center to be that low, it's okay for the left and right to be that low.

-T
Well some people say it's not good for the center to be that low and that's one argument I've seen for acoustically transparent screens.

I'm trying to learn.
 

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I have a toe in problem with my front towers that they will block the sides of the screen if I toe them in all 20 - 25 degrees to the center viewer.
Note that if the listening/viewing area is not as wide as the screen, some of the L/R speakers can be in front of the screen w/o blocking the light from the projector because of the ray angle.

In fact, the distance between the inner edges of my L/R's is a few in. less than my screen width, though it helps that they're suspended out from the wall a few feet.

You could also consider pulling yours away from the wall to help with that.


... if it's okay for the center to be that low, it's okay for the left and right to be that low.
That's a questionable if.

Just because that's a compromise that must often be accepted doesn't make it ok.

OTOH low fronts could be helped a lot if there are front heights.
 

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Note that if the listening/viewing area is not as wide as the screen, some of the L/R speakers can be in front of the screen w/o blocking the light from the projector because of the ray angle.

In fact, the distance between the inner edges of my L/R's is a few in. less than my screen width, though it helps that they're suspended out from the wall a few feet.

You could also consider pulling yours away from the wall to help with that.




That's a questionable if.

Just because that's a compromise that must often be accepted doesn't make it ok.

OTOH low fronts could be helped a lot if there are front heights.
I thought of maybe putting the towers in front of the screen enough that they could block the screen but not the projector or the viewer. But do you think it would be distracting for them to be hugging the border of the screen in that way? Its going to happen either way for me so... and luckily the R263s are already pretty dark, plus I can add black velvet if need be, and everything else will be a batcave, so maybe they iwll disappear either way.

Is there a concern of them casting a shadow onto the screen though if they are out in front a bit? How far out in front can they go before the sound feels like it's not coming from the screen anymore? At 14 inch depth, they are already 10 inches or so out in front of where the screen will likely roll down by default. Is it wise to keep going and make it more than 10?
 

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Hey all - I had a question on optimal placement for 5.1.2 in my living room. Here is a mockup of my current 5.1 setup. And here is a top-down view of some different ideas I had for 5.1.2 and 5.1.4. (I've since settled on 5.1.2, but I can't decide where to place them.) The couch is only an inch or two off the back wall, and cannot be moved forward. The yellow circles are existing recessed lights, so I'll have to work around them. And the ceiling joists run left-to-right in that top-down image, so I don't think it would be a good idea to place a speaker in-line with one of the "rows" of lights (due to interference between the speaker wire and power line).

The forward-most red +'s are 34 degrees off horizontal, the blues are 47 degrees, the greens are 70 degrees, and the back-reds are 90 degrees. I know the 5.1.2 Dolby guide recommends 65-100 degrees, but I've had others tell me that when there is a couch along the back wall (like in my case), it's better to put the two ceiling speakers further forward. I'm also worried that the green and back-red locations are getting really close to my surrounds, which are currently sitting 1.5 ft above seated ear level. So where would you recommend I place them?
 

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Well some people say it's not good for the center to be that low and that's one argument I've seen for acoustically transparent screens.

I'm trying to learn.
I started the conversation with you... So you and I can take it there.

-T
 

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Hey all - I had a question on optimal placement for 5.1.2 in my living room. Here is a mockup of my current 5.1 setup. And here is a top-down view of some different ideas I had for 5.1.2 and 5.1.4. (I've since settled on 5.1.2, but I can't decide where to place them.) The couch is only an inch or two off the back wall, and cannot be moved forward. The yellow circles are existing recessed lights, so I'll have to work around them. And the ceiling joists run left-to-right in that top-down image, so I don't think it would be a good idea to place a speaker in-line with one of the "rows" of lights (due to interference between the speaker wire and power line).

The forward-most red +'s are 34 degrees off horizontal, the blues are 47 degrees, the greens are 70 degrees, and the back-reds are 90 degrees. I know the 5.1.2 Dolby guide recommends 65-100 degrees, but I've had others tell me that when there is a couch along the back wall (like in my case), it's better to put the two ceiling speakers further forward. I'm also worried that the green and back-red locations are getting really close to my surrounds, which are currently sitting 1.5 ft above seated ear level. So where would you recommend I place them?
I know you said you can't move the couch forward but curious as to why ? There doesn't seem to be a physical reasonin those drawings and it will solve all of your issues. Not only will you be able to place your speakers more ideally (and go to 4 Atmos, which is a huge improvement over just 2) but you will also get better bass response with reduced "boomy" bass.

But if you can't move the couch and you can't lower the surrounds then I would go with the Blue option to get the heights further away from the surrounds. However I have limited experience with .2 Atmos and that is only an educated guess.
 

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Hey all - I had a question on optimal placement for 5.1.2 in my living room. Here is a mockup of my current 5.1 setup. And here is a top-down view of some different ideas I had for 5.1.2 and 5.1.4. (I've since settled on 5.1.2, but I can't decide where to place them.) The couch is only an inch or two off the back wall, and cannot be moved forward. The yellow circles are existing recessed lights, so I'll have to work around them. And the ceiling joists run left-to-right in that top-down image, so I don't think it would be a good idea to place a speaker in-line with one of the "rows" of lights (due to interference between the speaker wire and power line).

The forward-most red +'s are 34 degrees off horizontal, the blues are 47 degrees, the greens are 70 degrees, and the back-reds are 90 degrees. I know the 5.1.2 Dolby guide recommends 65-100 degrees, but I've had others tell me that when there is a couch along the back wall (like in my case), it's better to put the two ceiling speakers further forward. I'm also worried that the green and back-red locations are getting really close to my surrounds, which are currently sitting 1.5 ft above seated ear level. So where would you recommend I place them?
With only a single overhead speaker pair, I believe that the consensus opinion here is for a placement just forward of the MLP at ca. 80 degrees elevation. I am right now in the process of upgrading my bedroom system to 5.1.2 and have set myself an operational range of no less than 65 and no greater than 75 degrees for the overheads.

However, my surrounds are at ear level. If you can not lower those raised surrounds of yours, then I think it is advisable to situate your overheads further forward to achieve better separation as @niterida points out. Thus, I concur with his vote for something in the range of your blue marker. It would also better allow for the potential future option of moving your seating area forward, lowering the surrounds, and adding a second overhead pair in the rear.
 
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I know you said you can't move the couch forward but curious as to why ? There doesn't seem to be a physical reasonin those drawings and it will solve all of your issues.

But if you can't move the couch and you can't lower the surrounds then I would go with the Blue option to get the heights further away from the surrounds. However I have limited experience with .2 Atmos and that is only an educated guess.
It's due to WAF. The center of the living room is also used as a play area for our little one, so moving the couch forward cuts that generally floor area down too much.

There isn't anything physically limiting the surrounds going down to ear level. They were placed 1.5ft above, due to that being what I believe the Dolby recommendation was in a 5.1 setup. I guess that changes when going 5.1.x? My main fear is that those surrounds have a downward angled face (they are the new Chane A4.5's) so if I brought them to ear level, they'd be pointed at our mid torso.

With only a single overhead speaker pair, I believe that the consensus opinion here is for a placement just forward of the MLP at ca. 80 degrees elevation. I am right now in the process of upgrading my bedroom system to 5.1.2 and have set myself an operational range of no less than 65 and no greater than 75 degrees for the overheads.

However, my surrounds are at ear level. If you can not lower those raised surrounds of yours, then I think it is advisable to situate your overheads further forward to achieve better separation as @niterida points out. Thus, I concur with his vote for something in the range of your blue marker. It would also better allows for the potential future option of moving your seating area forward, lowering the surrounds, and adding a second overhead pair in the rear.
Dang, the green location being 70 degrees is like that perfect spot then, haha. The only reason I have the surrounds raised 1.5ft is because I thought that was the Dolby guideline for 5.1. I could lowered them more, but they have angled faces - so if I brought them centered to ear level, they'd be pointed at our mid torso area. Is there a certain physical distance I should strive for in terms of between the ceiling .2 and the surrounds? I.e. if I was to draw a string directly between the two, how long would I want it to at least be?
 

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It's due to WAF. The center of the living room is also used as a play area for our little one, so moving the couch forward cuts that generally floor area down too much.

There isn't anything physically limiting the surrounds going down to ear level. They were placed 1.5ft above, due to that being what I believe the Dolby recommendation was in a 5.1 setup. I guess that changes when going 5.1.x? My main fear is that those surrounds have a downward angled face (they are the new Chane A4.5's) so if I brought them to ear level, they'd be pointed at our mid torso.


Dang, the green location being 70 degrees is like that perfect spot then, haha. The only reason I have the surrounds raised 1.5ft is because I thought that was the Dolby guideline for 5.1. I could lowered them more, but they have angled faces - so if I brought them centered to ear level, they'd be pointed at our mid torso area. Is there a certain physical distance I should strive for in terms of between the ceiling .2 and the surrounds? I.e. if I was to draw a string directly between the two, how long would I want it to at least be?
The Dolby guideline for the height of the surrounds is no more than 1.25 times the height of the mains. I am not familiar with the model of speakers that you are using (and I don't recall whether you mentioned the height of your ceiling), but if you can lower them accordingly (or close to it) then you can permit yourself more leeway with the positioning of the overhead pair. Whichever way you go, I think that you will be pleased with the results; unless you are a highly discerning audiophile, IMHO these adjustments only represent small improvements to the overall soundstage.

For a bit of historical perspective, in the early days on this thread many of us (myself included) were obsessed with the minutiae of HT immersive audio setup. As time went on, the consensus opinion (influenced by practicality) developed that it was hard to get a bad result as long as one observed the basic principles. If you are dealing with an existing multi-purpose room you will almost always have to make compromises, but those considerations need not prevent you from realizing your objective.
 

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The Dolby guideline for the height of the surrounds is no more than 1.25 times the height of the mains. I am not familiar with the model of speakers that you are using (and I don't recall whether you mentioned the height of your ceiling), but if you can lower them accordingly (or close to it) then you can permit yourself more leeway with the positioning of the overhead pair. Whichever way you go, I think that you will be pleased with the results; unless you are a highly discerning audiophile, IMHO these adjustments only represent small improvements to the overall soundstage.

For a bit of historical perspective, in the early days on this thread many of us (myself included) were obsessed with the minutiae of HT immersive audio setup. As time went on, the consensus opinion (influenced by practicality) developed that it was hard to get a bad result as long as one observed the basic principles. If you are dealing with an existing multi-purpose room you will almost always have to make compromises, but those considerations need not prevent you from realizing your objective.
Interesting, I could have sworn I always heard "surrounds in a 5.1 setup should be 1-2 ft above seated ear level," but I guess it wasn't a Dolby thing and I must have picked that up somewhere else. In terms of my living room, the ceiling is only 7.5 ft tall (so 6" less than standard). In their current positions, my surrounds have their center 53 inches off the ground (and thus 37 inches below the ceiling). My front speakers have their centers 25 inches off the ground, so my surrounds are currently 2.12x the height of my fronts. Certainly above that 1.25x guideline - but as you mentioned - a multipurpose room comes with compromises.

Back to my top-down view, it seems like I'm now waffling between two choices. Either having the two ceiling speakers 16" in front of the rear lights (blue +'s) or 16" behind the rear lights (green +'s). (I'm assuming my joists, which run left-to-right in my ceiling, are in 16" increments).
  • The blues would be 47 degrees off horizontal (missing the 65-100 degree guideline), but would give me 5.75 ft of point-to-point separation (with 37 inches height separation) from the surrounds - as seen here. I'm not sure how other aim-able in-ceiling speakers compare, but I checked on the HTD HDX-R65 speakers, and their tweeter can only be angled up to 15 degrees. Meaning if I pointed them as far back as they would go from the blue positions, they'd be pointing at the listener's shins. (I'm not sure if this is an issue - as I realize speakers are not a laser beam, but figured I'd mention it).
  • The greens would be 72 degrees off horizontal (meeting the 65-100 degree guideline), but would only have 4 ft of point-to-point separation (with the same 37 inches of height separation) from the surrounds - as seen here.
I realize I'm being extremely nit-picky at this point, but is your recommendation still the blues seeing that math? I'm sure I'll be happy with either, but I figure I should (somewhat unhealthily, I suppose) think through this before committing to cutting holes in my ceiling. :)

Appreciate your continued insight into this!
 

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Interesting, I could have sworn I always heard "surrounds in a 5.1 setup should be 1-2 ft above seated ear level,"
I think that was a holdover from Dolby Pro-Logic days, when you wouldn't have much but ambience back there, and you were trying to diffuse the sound.
 

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Interesting, I could have sworn I always heard "surrounds in a 5.1 setup should be 1-2 ft above seated ear level," but I guess it wasn't a Dolby thing and I must have picked that up somewhere else. In terms of my living room, the ceiling is only 7.5 ft tall (so 6" less than standard). In their current positions, my surrounds have their center 53 inches off the ground (and thus 37 inches below the ceiling). My front speakers have their centers 25 inches off the ground, so my surrounds are currently 2.12x the height of my fronts. Certainly above that 1.25x guideline - but as you mentioned - a multipurpose room comes with compromises.

Back to my top-down view, it seems like I'm now waffling between two choices. Either having the two ceiling speakers 16" in front of the rear lights (blue +'s) or 16" behind the rear lights (green +'s). (I'm assuming my joists, which run left-to-right in my ceiling, are in 16" increments).
  • The blues would be 47 degrees off horizontal (missing the 65-100 degree guideline), but would give me 5.75 ft of point-to-point separation (with 37 inches height separation) from the surrounds - as seen here. I'm not sure how other aim-able in-ceiling speakers compare, but I checked on the HTD HDX-R65 speakers, and their tweeter can only be angled up to 15 degrees. Meaning if I pointed them as far back as they would go from the blue positions, they'd be pointing at the listener's shins. (I'm not sure if this is an issue - as I realize speakers are not a laser beam, but figured I'd mention it).
  • The greens would be 72 degrees off horizontal (meeting the 65-100 degree guideline), but would only have 4 ft of point-to-point separation (with the same 37 inches of height separation) from the surrounds - as seen here.
I realize I'm being extremely nit-picky at this point, but is your recommendation still the blues seeing that math? I'm sure I'll be happy with either, but I figure I should (somewhat unhealthily, I suppose) think through this before committing to cutting holes in my ceiling. :)

Appreciate your continued insight into this!
TL/DR: Yes, I would lean toward the blue but would also urge that you consider whether those surrounds could be lowered.

The main issue for placement of overhead speakers for Dolby Atmos playback is the elevation angle, but with ceilings of less than eight feet you are running into the additional problem of establishing planar separation with the listener-level speakers. The fact that you have raised surrounds exacerbates this problem. You need to "convince" your ears that the sounds are emanating from a hemispheric environment, but in your case that environment is flattened and the back floor level is raised. You will still be enveloped but the effect will not be as impactful so that anything you can do to mitigate against these compromising factors should work in your favor.

I'm pretty sure you will be pleased with the result whatever you choose to do.
 
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TL/DR: Yes, I would lean toward the blue but would also urge that you consider whether those surrounds could be lowered.
So one thought I had is to rotate the Chane A4.5s 90 degrees while lowering them, so that the angle is pointing towards the front of the room, instead of pointing further down. It seems like this is about as low as I can get them: left surround, and right surround. (The current locations are in black, the proposed locations are in grey). Any lower and the right surround will start interfering with the couch, so it's pretty much as far as I can take them. Top view of how they would look.

That would make the surround have their centers 42 inches above the floor (thus 48 inches below the ceiling). Which would make them 1.68x the height of the front speakers. One concern, however, is that my wife tends to sit right here, and so it would just keep inching closer to her right ear, haha.

If I end up moving them to those grey positions, does that make you lean towards green? Or would you still just say eff it, and go blue? Here is an additional view, to give you an idea of those options.


For anyone else reading, feel free to give your opinions as well! I'm definitely looking for insight anywhere I can get it.
 

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If I end up moving them to those grey positions, does that make you lean towards green? Or would you still just say eff it, and go blue? Here is an additional view, to give you an idea of those options.
I would still lean towards green (with apologies to Dr. Seuss :) ), but it's hard to know which compromise will work best for you. Perhaps someone who is familiar with the properties of your chosen speakers can give a more informed opinion.

It might help you to arrive at a decision if you could experiment by temporarily placing the speakers at the different locations. Otherwise, I think you have done your due diligence; just go with your gut (and don't forget to allow for the WAF).
 
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