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Discussion Starter #1
So I'm not sure how many people care about this, but it was something I really wanted to see when I was researching PDP's. I looked for hard numbers for quite a while, but for the most part, couldn't really find any and just had to go by anecdotal reports or one line blurbs from reviews (usually for foreign equivalent models that may or may not be the same). The goal is for this thread to be a one-stop compilation of several displays, so please post results or PM me links to others tests so I can add them. You can read more about the testing procedure here and even try it yourself . Jvarisco has put together a guide to understanding the general problem of "input lag". Frito also runs an LCD equivalent thread in the LCD forum that goes into a lot of detail on the subject.

*Testing Procedure Instructions*

Physical Connections

1) Connect a laptop to your TV and cycle to the video input you used. HDMI is preferred, though VGA is better than nothing.

2) Do not run your tests through an Audio Receiver (AVR), use a direct connection between the TV and PC. This is very important. Some AVR's can and will introduce lag, even on 1080p "Through" connections. OSD overlays are the biggest offenders.

On your PC

1) Turn off Windows Aero ( see how here ). This is very important, Aero and V-sync will skew your results.

2) If you have a dedicated video card (Nvidia/ATI), it may be helpful to disable (force off) Vertical Sync. I believe disabling Aero usually takes care of this, but if you have doubts, this may be worthwhile.

3) Right click your desktop and choose "Screen Resolution". (*Note* these are Windows 7 instructions, Vista/XP may differ slightly)

4) Click the "Multiple Displays" drop down and select the "Duplicate these displays" option.

5) Your desktop should now be mirrored/cloned to your TV and laptop display simultaneously.

6) Point your browser to this link.

On your TV

1) Use the display's "Game Mode" (check the manual for instructions)

2) Turn OFF all special processing features in the TV's menu (e.g. CATS, Motion Smoother, Dynamic Contrast, Frame Interpolation, Cinesmooth, Blur Reduction, Local Contrast Enhancer, etc...)

On your camera

1) You will want to use a mode or option with a fast shutter speed so the timer numbers show up clearly.

2) On lower quality cameras, using the flash often helps with this.

3) Start the timer in your browser and take a picture so the numbers are visible on both displays simultaneously (see below for examples).


2013 Models


Panasonic S60, 34.1ms ( by David Katzmaier via Lag Tester )



Panasonic ST60, 73.6ms ( by David Katzmaier via Lag Tester)



Panasonic VT60, 47.9ms ( by David Katmaier via Lag Tester)



Panasonic ZT60, 46.2ms ( by David Katmaier via Lag Tester)



Samsung F5500, 37-38ms ( by Display Lag Database via Lag Tester)



Samsung F5300, 40-53ms ( by Display Lag Database via Lag Tester)



Samsung F8500, 56-68ms ( by Display Lag Database via Lag Tester)



Samsung F4500, 38-55ms ( by Display Lag Database via Lag Tester)




Panasonic ST60E (European), ~50-100ms via cloned timer, 75ms via Lag Testing Device ( by Norvegia )



2012 Models



Panasonic U54, ~20ms* ( by myself ) *vs. unknown laptop LCD, additional results in post.






2011 Models


Panasonic GT30: ~24ms* ( by Chudsmith ) *Average out of 43 shots. Point of comparison is unknown LCD.




Panasonic ST30: ~15-32ms* ( By thepoohcontinum ) *Primary result was 32ms. See his post for measurements of frame interpolation and other processing features, 62-125ms (also tested by Gandu )




Panasonic S30: ~16-32ms* ( By DrFrank ) *Point of comparison is unknown laptop LCD. Windows Aero on, results potentially slightly skewed.




Samsung D7000: ~34ms* ( by Varkeast ) *Game Mode ( also tested by notext )




Samsung D550: ~20ms PC Mode, ~32-50ms Game Mode* ( by badmeng and DrFrank ) *Point of comparison is unknown laptop LCD. Windows Aero on in DrFrank's testing, results potentially skewed.






LG PZ550: ~100-117ms* ( By DrFrank ) *Point of comparison is unknown laptop LCD. Windows Aero on, results potentially slightly skewed.




2010 Models


Panasonic VT25: ~15ms* ( by Jrod0802 ) *Note this is a VGA test, HDMI could yield different results. Point of comparison is also an unknown laptop LCD panel.




Panasonic VT20: ~32ms* ( by mechashiva2k ) *Note test source is unknown laptop panel.




Panasonic GT25: ~15ms* ( by toolman02 ) *Note test source is unknown laptop panel. ( Also tested by Zodduska )




Panasonic G25: 16-32ms* ( by NOAMattd ) *Primary result seemed to be 32ms.




Panasonic S20E: 18-30ms* ( by AABBCCAA ) *Note this is the nearest European equivalent of the North American S2, there could be differences between territories.




Panasonic U2: 28-43ms* ( by Drapers ) *Shutter speed makes it difficult to call. Also note test source is an unknown laptop LCD panel, his supplementary tests suggest adding at least a full frame (16ms) to the values.




Panasonic C2: 30-50ms* ( by Nerv_001 ) *Shutter speed seems too slow to call it definitively. Also note test source is an unknown LCD panel so actual lag is likely higher.




LG PX950N: ~50ms* ( by Graco ) *Note this does not include lag from the LCD panel tested against. It is also the Scandinavian model, could be territorial differences.


Game Mode



LG PK550: ~86ms* ( by shaddix ) *VGA, presumably a "PC Mode", measured ~46ms . HDMI labeled PC does NOT seem to reduce lag .


Game Mode



2009 Models


Panasonic G15: ~20ms ( by Mr. Deap *) *480i measures included in his post.




Panasonic G10: ~15ms* ( by myself and re-tested ) *Note my laptop seems to lag 4-7ms based on comparisons to Deap's CRT findings, so it should actually be ~20ms as well.




Panasonic S1: ~30ms* ( by myself ) *This could be a difference b/t the S1 and G10 in general, or the sizes classes (e.g. 50" Vs. 65"). See my comments in link.




Panasonic X1: ~35ms ( by Frito )




Samsung B650 PDP ( by cleh19 )


Standard Mode: 80-110ms



Game Mode: 30-50ms



2008 Models


Pioneer Kuro 5020: ~45ms* ( by Video313 ) *Mode is unknown, but this seems to line up with other comments I have seen with Game Mode and Game Pref on.




Samsung A650 PDP: 60-80ms ( by tqn )


Standard Mode



2007 Models


Pioneer Kuro 5010: ~60ms* ( by tqn ) *Mode is unknown




Pioneer Kuro 5080: ~20ms* ( by Mathesar ) *PC mode tested. Possible normal or game modes could yield different results.
 

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This is a great idea for a thread. If nothing else, we can centralize all of the lag data into one place. Ideally we could come up with some standard tests, although I realize that may be impossible due to the need of having the proper test equipment (namely a CRT). I think there's typically 2 types of lag people are worried about:


- 480i sources - EG older game consoles.

- native sources - sources that match the native resolution of the plasma, EG modern HD game consoles


To test with 480i we can use a CRT as the reference point. I'm not sure how we can properly test lag at the native resolution other than using something like Rock Band 2 with the camera built into the guitar.
 

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Great post Orta! Glad you started this (esp. because this is my primary gaming display as well). It would seem your test between standard and game display profiles on the G10 would support the theory that these are only menu setting presets. Odd that the IFC or smoothing in Standard would not create any measurable lag though



Not that you have time to take requests, but if you do perform more lag tests, could you try the game test with CATS on? I've always been curious about the effect of dynamic contrast based on ambient lighting. Contrast is the one setting I can never get dialed in to my satisfaction...would love to set it at 50 and just leave CATS on if the effect on input lag was negligible.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyderulz /forum/post/16907950


Great post Orta! Glad you started this (esp. because this is my primary gaming display as well). It would seem your test between standard and game display profiles on the G10 would support the theory that these are only menu setting presets. Odd that the IFC or smoothing in Standard would not create any measurable lag though


I was shocked that the frame creation on the g10 didn't cause any extra lag as well. It seems that Panasonic is the only TV maker that can do it right.



I've confirmed that my 54g10 also only has 1 frame of lag on THX mode (my prefered mode for everything) so these Panasonic sets continue the tradition of Panasonic's being almost lag free.
 

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A long overdue thread to be sure! Can't wait to see more results from the current 2009 plasma crop. Orta, you may want to put a link to the test procedure in the first post so others who may not know how to do it can contribute.


Here is one video I found of someone testing a G10 with frame creation on, outputting from a laptop to CRT and the G10 simultaneously (as per the test on http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/ourtest )



I think videos are better over pictures personally, they're less effort to take and upload and all you have to do is pause in a bunch of spots to get as many "samples" as you like.
 

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This is a much needed thread. Input lag is rarely talked about in reviews.


However, the comparisons need to be made to CRT. If the G10/V10 have about 1 frame difference to an LCD, then the total lag on the input is around 2 frames.
 

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pete2s has it right. Comparing against CRT shows you the lag for 480i material, important for last-gen game systems and SD material.
 

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Discussion Starter #11

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD /forum/post/16920542


pete2s has it right. Comparing against CRT shows you the lag for 480i material, important for last-gen game systems and SD material.

Good news, Mr. Deap has done just this. I included the link in my second post.
 

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Great idea for a thread. My only concern is that there is probably some input lag on your computer monitor too. Especially if you have one of the newer ones with dynamic contrast or other image processing. So that might skew the results.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by astonbilla /forum/post/16939721


ok i'm confused (sorry) is the Panasonic better than the samsung LCD then?


Was the 650 not widely reported as having awful lag?

The A650 has bad lag in the standard modes (~60ms), but had fairly low lag in PC or Game mode (15-30ms). The G10 has lower input lag than the A650 does in PC/Game mode.
 

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Guys, it's just baffles my mind why these review websites fail to include how any HDTV handles HD gaming(both 360 and PS3..heck even Wii and the last generation, which were rendered in 480i/p), especially when the gaming industry itself is a huge reason why HDTV's have been sellling like hotcakes since the Xbox360 arrived in late 2005'.


These sites(ie..Cnet,HDGuru and others) need to do tests for input lag, phosper trails, and moving line resolution.


It's comical how Cnet says the they do not notice the difference of a 300-400 measured (1080p) HDTV compared to a full 1080p measured model.


THANK YOU, to the guys who did the measurments of the Panny G10 and Samsung A650(plasma) because while i was on the fence about the color accuracy of my Panasonic S1(hopefully for a return for a G10 next week), i'd easily take less then perfect colors, compared to worse lag.


Ironically the Samsung B550 claims it has a .001 ms response time in it's specs, but it's basically the same model as the A650, add to that it measured only 800-900 lines of resolution, and it's IR prevention is not as good as the Panasonic line(S1/G10).


Be it sticking with the S1(if i can push the green level a bit lower in the user controls) or the G10, i'm sticking with the Panasonic Plasma as my gaming HDTV.


One more thing, i went from a Sony 34" XBR960(CRT), and i noticed no visible lag on both a 42" U1 or the 50" S1 models.


And i notice lag on every 240hz LCD during just a preseason live broadcast.


Hopefully these review sites will eventually figure out how many gamers are buying HDTVs, and the're main reason, is for gaming.


Phil
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBgobears /forum/post/17116415


I've seen a lot of info on this thread related to the G10, but is it safe to assume that the same can be said for the V10?

I hope so as I'm getting mine delivered this Tuesday. Depending on how you look at it, I'm upgrading from the XBR9 to the V10. Love the XBR9 but the avid gamer in me wants the best.



Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the G10 and the V10 use the same panel so in theory, they should perform the same when it comes to input lag.
 
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