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Are my Jamo C109's considered full range speakers? The Frequency Response is (Hz, +/-3dB) 30Hz - 27kHz. http://www.jamo.com/speaker-lines/concert/C10/?sku=C109

The speakers are set to "Small" and crossovered to 80Hz, but when I listen to musics I put the amp to Pure Direct and I really love the sound and the heavy bass.

When selecting Pure Direct mode, does the amp consider the Speakers "Large"?
 

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The two main fronts are bi-amped, and here is the result of the YPAO measurements. Should I consider changing any measurement manually? If yes, which one?

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Man, you should lower your subwoofer gain and rerun YPAO. I think you have set it at a high level, making subwoofer sounding loud and thus leading to YPAO lowering its gain to the minimum, while boosting the output of other speakers to their maximum. The correct level for subwoofer after YPAO is arround 0 dB and corresponding to normal levels of other speakers. That is how you will get normal/smooth/equal level response for all speakers + subwoofer.
 
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@makrelov yes I did it. I lowered the sub gain and re run YPAO, got -2.5db. This is what was recommended by other member in forum. If you can scroll up you will see. His recommendation was +-3.0db


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Yes, it's 5.1, and this includes all broadcast content. I have Pattern 2 set as 5.1, but there really should be a way to play content Straight while using the Straight setting.
You can't,and this is the reason why I said that we should have had on the 3050 more than 2 Patterns considering we have 12 scenes to play with. Maybe a newer model say the 3060 or other will implement this.
 

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Quick show of hands, How many here have $800+ front L/R speakers????

:cool::rolleyes:
Me.
But at the same time that's $800 Australian dollars LOL.
 

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Me too , my Jamo C 109's are US $3000.00 for a pair.


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Me.
But at the same time that's $800 Australian dollars LOL.
My concept 8's cost me around $950 for the pair when they hit the Market. All Hi fi stuff is Expensive in Australia as you can expect (lousy AU dollar compared to the US Dollar) but at the same time as a maintenance Electrician working a 40 hour week I was earning back in 1995 $65,000 a year. Most Electrician that I worked with that loved overtime earned up to $90,000 a year and with that money you can afford to pay $2800 for a RX -A3050 and up to $5,000 for quality front speakers.
 

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@makrelov yes I did it. I lowered the sub gain and re run YPAO, got -2.5db. This is what was recommended by other member in forum. If you can scroll up you will see. His recommendation was +-3.0db


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Hi,

Yes, I saw I am a little late :). Time differences let's blame. Wish you enjoy your system and watch tons of movies.
 

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Thanks man, I am rally enjoying it. They sound great.


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Everything you say is correct, regarding my main system with the 5100 prepro and Outlaw 7900 & 7700 amps. I suspect that I'm way over the top on that system.

Howver, I also have 5 other systems with 50 series AVRs, one of which is a 3050 with NHT Classic Four L/R towers that I also set to large. The system has two J&L E110 subs. Maybe I should try setting the Classic Fours to small? I might try that, but I still wonder why people (myself included) would want to purchase full-range speakers and roll off their low end response? At the very least it sounds like a waste of money.
The setup you've got for the Def Tech BP8080ST and Trinity subs is not even with a receiver - am I correct in this based on the above post?

If so, the pre/pro (CX-A5100) + external amps (Outlaw 7900 & 7700) powering the Def Tech is very different (thus I don't believe is relevant comparison) to those who are relying on the internal amp section of the receiver to power the speakers. It's important to get the setup basics and reference point correct as the path will differ.

What is more relevant for this thread is your setup of the NHT Classic Four passive towers with the JL Audio E110 (10") subs and the A3050. Can I say that you're powering the NHT Classic Four towers straight from the power terminals of the receiver and not using an external amp?

What is your speaker configuration for the receiver setup? Is is the full 7.1.4 system? If so, which set of speakers are you powering with an external amp?

That's where you lose me. A speaker such as an NHT Classic Three which is essentially the same as the NHT Classic Four but without the 10" woofer (and is a lot smaller) at about 1/3 of the price, has the same midbass, midrange, and high frequency drivers. So wouldn't its 80+Hz response be virtually the same? If that is so, what is the additional cost getting you when using a 80Hz crossover?

Note that I chose the NHT speakers as I own a number of them and hence are pretty familiar with them; but I suspect there are many other brands having similar attributes across models in the same line.

I'm really not trying to argue about this. I really don't get it. Why spend an additional $800 for a speaker if I'm not going to use its low frequency driver?
The thing is that every listening room is actually split into two rooms based on the Schroeder frequency. Below 300Hz, one is hearing more of the room rather than the direct radiation patterns from the speaker.

Let's look at the main characteristics of the NHT Classic Three and Four speakers that you're quoting. Will be focusing on the lowest frequencies as this is the topic of discussion.

The Classic Three has the lowest rated frequency of 45Hz. 8 ohms nominal impedance with a minimum of 4.1 ohms. 87dB/W/m sensitivity with a maximum power rating of 150W. The NRC measurements for the Classic Three is here: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/nht_classic_three/. The F3 point is about 60Hz.

The Classic Four has the lowest rated frequency of 27Hz. 6 ohms nominal impedance with a minimum of 4.1 ohms. 86dB/W/m with a power rating up to 250W. The towers are much harder to drive (lower sensitivity and nominal impedance), but has better low frequency response. Believe this is the main focus of your setting?

Since you've also got the JL Audio E110 (10") subs the important parameters is their frequency response: 23 - 116 Hz (+/- 3dB) with amp power of 1200 W RMS (short-term). Note the available power output for the sub is quite high.

The idea is then to splice the E110 subs with either NHT Classic Three or Four and if done right, the frequency response range should be 23Hz up to 20kHz. The question is which will give a better result with the A3050 receiver?

The power output of the E110 sub should give you a clue, because it has a similar sized driver to the NHT Classic Four and that's 10". Low frequency reproduction, due to the nature of long wavelengths require significant amount of energy/power.

Let's say the receiver had to supply all the power (i.e. there is no plate amp on the sub) to both the E110 and NHT speakers to give the 23Hz to 20kHz response at the same SPL, would the A3050 (or any receiver for the matter) be able to do it? The peak demand of 1,200W for just the bass (not including the mids and highs) is a lot to ask and the A3050 will struggle to provide that amount of power with it's combined transformer and capacitor output as the energy storage devices.

By off loading the power hungry bass frequencies to the more capable E110 (via bass management with a crossover) one is effectively gaining additional power (i.e. headroom) on the limited amp section of the receiver. This means setting the speaker to 'SMALL' on the receiver.

The question then comes down to what the appropriate crossover point is? There are a lot of other variables to consider on what is the right crossover frequency, including personal preferences on what sounds good. While your line of thinking is to set the crossover based on the lowest frequency the mains can reproduce to fully utilize the speaker capability, some care needs to be taken here.

It's worthwhile to ask at this point, why would one not utilize the capacity (1,200W short term) of the more capable sub in the first place by making it work less with a low crossover frequency? Since all this power and performance has been paid for and by setting a low crossover, the E110 sub being asked to do very little. This seems illogical.

On the other hand with the same low crossover frequency, the combined speaker and receiver is being stretched to it's limits (maybe beyond) by asking it to reproduce those low bass frequencies. This is not a wise thing to do and is illogical.

If one does decide to implement a low crossover frequency, a check should be made by running compression sweeps with the receiver and speaker(s) up to reference level or desired listening level. Note how the response curve starts to change (if any) at higher SPL and the THD levels. If the receiver hasn't shutdown due to thermal protection mode and one considers the compression sweeps to be acceptable, then one should be okay at the low crossover frequency.
 

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Quick show of hands, How many here have $800+ front L/R speakers????

By all means use your elite speakers in all 5 of your rooms in your multi-room mansion,
But good luck convincing the majority of us poor neophytes with a single modest home theater
to follow your preferences ... :cool::rolleyes:
That wasn't my point at all. First off, I don't live in anything resembling a mansion. I have just managed to collect this stuff over the years and am not very good about selling it off (I do give some of it to my kids and grand kids when I can). Also, you make my point. Why buy expensive full range speakers and then cripple them by cutting off the frequency sent to them below 80Hz?

The dominate recommendation here seems to be that one should do just that. I'm trying to understand the logic of it.

BTW, the NHT Classic Fours actually cost around $1200 each which is about $800 more apiece than the Threes. I was using them just as an example to illustrate a point as I knew that for other than the woofer and size they were essentially the same.
 

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...

If one does decide to implement a low crossover frequency, a check should be made by running compression sweeps with the receiver and speaker(s) up to reference level or desired listening level. Note how the response curve starts to change (if any) at higher SPL and the THD levels. If the receiver hasn't shutdown due to thermal protection mode and one considers the compression sweeps to be acceptable, then one should be okay at the low crossover frequency.
Ok, I think I understand what you are getting at and I do appreciate your response and detailed description, very enlightening. Given all of that, for example, would I have been better off getting Classic Threes rather than the Fours and saving myself about $1500? That's really the question I attempting to get an answer to.

I plan to try changing the setup in this room (my den) with the 3050 and the Classic Fours to see (hear?) if I can notice any real difference and which sounds best to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the necessary gear to perform the compression sweeps that you describe.

Edit: I failed to answer your question regarding the external amp I'm using with my 3050. It's an Emotiva Mini-X A-100 and it drives the rear presence channels.
 

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Extra Bass and EQ while Calibrating equals Bad

Short Version:
Having the Option Tweaks on before YPAO will result in the long story below:

Tweaks I had on included:
Options-Tone Control
Treble +1.5db
Bass +3db
Options-Sub Woofer Trim +2db
Options-Extra Bass On
Options-Enhancer On
Options-Hi-Res Mode On

Long Version (Guaranteed to Help Noobs like me!):

Latest Fixes and Tweaks=Sound Explosion!!

When I first purchased the 3050, it made my Polk Audio Monitor Series II speakers shine even before YPAO. After running YPAO, I was totally blown away! However, somehow I allowed the "internet" to convince me that my speakers were not that good so I upgraded to the RTi Series from praises of how they blew the Monitor Series II out of the water.

Just wasn't the case after I got them setup and calibrated with YPAO. I, could not hear this night and day difference and was totally underwhelmed.

Fast Forward a Month or so:
The Mrs. allowed me to finally move my front speakers in the pathway of going up the stairs. Not really in the way but they stick out. Previously I was forced to set them at 44 degrees so the left speaker was out of the way or about 19 degrees which would put them right next to the TV but behind my PJ Screen when pulled down. :eek:
Thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2098498-them-damn-stairs-speaker-placement-help.html

Having the speakers at 28 degrees made a difference but I had started to get used to how huge (wide) the Front Stage Sound was. The RTi tweeters are higher than the Monitor Series so it expanded the Front Stage Vertical as well.



Re-calibrated and now I am frustrated! Arrrrrggg. I just knew that having the Fronts at the proper angle would do it...:mad:

Sub Crawl:
Finally ordered some 50ft RCA sub cables and took a day do to a the infamous "Sub Crawl". I will admit that I looked stupid and the dogs and kids were utterly confused...I can't believe how much of a difference it made. Of course the best places would not pass the WAF so I compromised but I did gain deeper and smoother bass throughout the process.

Audiosphere and Helicopter Demo:
These two demos really helped me to realize that my 6ft spread from Front Top to Rear Top was just too close. Ripped down 3/4 of my make shift drop ceiling to extend it out 8 ft. Ear to Ceiling is 4'7" so my spread should have been 9'2" for the ideal 45 degree. Moving them to 8ft made a HUGE difference!!! Took me about 4hrs and $80 at the Home Depot. Now, just have to get some wire molding to hide the Umbilical Cord hanging from my ceiling!





Problem Identified!:
Re-run YPAO and now everything seems to be even better but I still feel in my gut that something is wrong...I just started going through the setting and trying to find anything that I have done previously that might have something to do with it. I found some things that were definitely affected the sound

Options-Tone Control
Treble +1.5db, This has been set like this since the M60s forgot I adjusted it.
Bass +3db, This has been set like this since the M60s forgot I adjusted it.

Options-Sub Woofer Trim +2db, I usually adjust this for the bass setting for various movies but forgot it was on.
Options-Extra Bass On
Now this one...Something is wrong with this setting. I have had this on for various reasons, It sounded better with my M60s even though I had them set to small. Changing to the RTi and running YPAO, Extra Bass On was always selected BEFORE YPAO. Not on purposed but I just forgot about it. The problem is when switching the RTi8s from Small to Large they sound Dramatically different. I am not talking about a subtle change but small resulted in increased mids and punchier bass where-as large was smooth and natural but the mids and highs seem to get much lower. I just assumed that since setting them to small, they got more juice from the Amp which made them sound better...I am now convinced it has everything to do with Extra Bass being On during the YPAO calibration.

Options-Enhancer On, This has been set like this since the M60s forgot I adjusted it.
Options-Hi-Res Mode On, This has been set like this since the M60s forgot I adjusted it.

Sound Explosion!!:
I disabled all of the setting that I had on. Ran YPAO (8 position+angle) and BAM!!!! Unfreakingbelievable!! First super obvious thing was the clarity. The RTi8, CSi5 and RTi4s sounded so freaking awesome! This was not a mind trick. It was clear as day that they sounded like I have never heard them and probably how they should have sounded when I replaced the Monitor 60s, CS2 and Monitor 30s. Second thing was to check the extra bass setting and Large vs Small with the RTi8s. This time, while listening to music (Straight 2 channel), changing them from Small to Large did not change the dynamics of the speakers dramatically. Rather just allowed more low end while no bass went to the sub. Turning Extra Bass on allowed both the RTi8 and Sub to play bass.

This behavior was different when running YPAO with Extra Bass On. When doing that the bass would play from the sub rather extra bass was on or off. Also, as stated previously, there was a HUGE difference between setting the speakers to small vs large. The bass went all Super Saiyan! This has to be a bug...

Finally, I typically adjust the sub volume up after YPAO calibration. As you can tell by my many mistakes above, I like bass! This time when I brought the volume up, I almost cried!:eek: The bass was so nice,smooth, rich and deep! So much so, that I can stop drooling over the HSU VTF-15H MK2 to satisfy my craving for more bass!

The Atmos demos like Horizons, Audiosphere, Shattered, Amazed and the Leaf sounds unreal now. I watched two Atmos movies over, Mad Max and Sicario and was truly blown away by how different everything sounded.

I hope this helps someone in the future.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...mk2.html/RK=0/RS=qKYoYBqUvYx6enRz1uT3rulkSPA-
 

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Short Version:
Having the Option Tweaks on before YPAO will result in the long story below:

Tweaks I had on included:
Options-Tone Control
Treble +1.5db
Bass +3db
Options-Sub Woofer Trim +2db
Options-Extra Bass On
Options-Enhancer On
Options-Hi-Res Mode On

(snip)

I hope this helps someone in the future.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...mk2.html/RK=0/RS=qKYoYBqUvYx6enRz1uT3rulkSPA-
Thanks for sharing. I would expect all of those options to be ignored by YPAO. I would consider this behavior to be, if not a bug, non-optimal.
 

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Behavior in Straight mode

As I read the manual, on p. 79 it says that you must choose a surround decoder to enable 6.1/7.1 playback with 5.1 material. When I play 5.1 material through Straight, I am getting 7.1. Am I missing a setting or is this a bug?



I know I can get the behavior I want by setting a pattern without surround backs, but I'd rather leave the unit in Straight and have it play 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, and Atmos without changing patterns. Previous Yamahas had an Extended Surround setting, but I don't see it in the menus of the 3050.
 

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As I read the manual, on p. 79 it says that you must choose a surround decoder to enable 6.1/7.1 playback with 5.1 material. When I play 5.1 material through Straight, I am getting 7.1. Am I missing a setting or is this a bug?

I know I can get the behavior I want by setting a pattern without surround backs, but I'd rather leave the unit in Straight and have it play 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, and Atmos without changing patterns. Previous Yamahas had an Extended Surround setting, but I don't see it in the menus of the 3050.
You left out the rest of the sentence that says "when surround back speakers are used". No matter, you must be playing 7.1 material (or you wouldn't get 7.1 in straight)? It seems as though every DSP setting (including DSU) engages every speaker you have connected/configured (even heights).
 

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Question : how does the 1050 sound in comparison to the 3050? Do they sound the same? I only ask because I'm trying to decide between a SR7010 and a 3050. I only was able to compare that to a 1050 and really I liked the sound of the Marantz. Mind you this was a music demo , ran out of time to do a movie demo.
 

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Question : how does the 1050 sound in comparison to the 3050? Do they sound the same? I only ask because I'm trying to decide between a SR7010 and a 3050. I only was able to compare that to a 1050 and really I liked the sound of the Marantz. Mind you this was a music demo , ran out of time to do a movie demo.
Unless Marantz changed something between the 7009 (which I've owned) and the 7010 in the preamp output section, I would highly recommend the 3050 over the Marantz...
 

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Question : how does the 1050 sound in comparison to the 3050? Do they sound the same? I only ask because I'm trying to decide between a SR7010 and a 3050. I only was able to compare that to a 1050 and really I liked the sound of the Marantz. Mind you this was a music demo , ran out of time to do a movie demo.
That's not really a fair comparison: you're comparing a top-of-the-line Marantz with (what I would call) a bottom-of-the-line Yamaha (I wouldn't even consider buying below a 1050). For one thing, the 1050 and 3050 have different DACs.
 
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