[HopefulFred]

Hi. My name's Fred, and this is my first meeting. I haven't figured out what twelve steps go with the addiction I've developed, but I'm sure there will be wide screens and acoustically transparant everything.

Oh, wait. Is that not what we do here?

Seriously, getting this moving is one of those weird experiences where I'm not sure how it will turn out, but I've obsessed for long enough. I've told all my friends about how they'll never want to go pay for movie tickets again, and all they'll need to do it bring some popcorn and drinks. I just hope you all can help me bring that promise home, and within my lifetime.

I'm sure if you've read more than a couple build threads you'll recognize some design ideas I've borrowed (thanks guys!), but that doesn't mean I've thought of everything. So please keep an open mind and blurt out whatever you think - I know I'm trying to think creatively as much as possible, so I'm ready for suggestions.

I've purchased a recently built (in the last decade) home with a previously "finished" basement - we moved in October. I'll show you some pictures and video below, but all that will do is provide visual reference for the demolition that will need to happen. I'm not really sure how the previous owners used this space, but I can't imagine it was up to my standards for sound or light control. There are windows I'm afraid will have to go, and speakers in the ceiling that won't do at all, and hardwood flooring that I hope can be reused by someone else ...we'll see.

The prime space is around 12 feet wide (12 and a half in some places), 9 feet tall, and longer than I can use - 37 feet. There are one or two adjacent spaces that might become part of the whole experience - you'll see in the plans below.

Here's the bullets for a wish list

• seating for 6 or more
• superior sound control - a low noise floor especially.
• light control - automated would be ideal, budget pending
• constant height projection (no lens) and infinitely variable masking (automation not required)
• acoustically transparent screen
• concealed speakers as well as acoustic treatments
• 7.2, maybe 7.4
• equipment in another room (I have only a small number of pieces already - BDP, Boxee Box, a receiver I hope to use as amp)
• the lowest budget possible*

I'll go ahead and post a layout and a video so you can see the space, and then I'll mention some of the challenges I've identified. (Pardon the video, embedded here, it seems to get stretched to 16:9, even though the iPod shoots video 4:3 - it's right on YouTube at my channel - HopefulFred)

Link to YouTube

The bad news:

• The width is a fixed constraint. The sump pump and stairwell are not moving.
• The existing soffits and ceiling are weird. Hopefully, when I tear down the drywall I'll find problems with solutions, and not just more problems.
• The length will need to get worked out. The landing for the stairs may impose practical limits, but I'm hoping that I can make everything work well without getting too creative or having two doors in the theater (I'll show you what I mean in my proposed final layouts).
• The HVAC unit that serves the basement is a heat pump, and the air handler is directly adjacent to the current finished room. I want to maximize the effectiveness of this unit while also keeping its noises out.
• There are as many as four windows that may have to go entirely. Depending on final length of the room, I may not need to remove all of them. Or maybe I can be convinced I don't need to remove any of them, but I doubt that.

The good news:

• The better half trusts me to handle this. She understands it will take a year or two ...or three (did I just jinx this already?) and won't try to stop me from building fabric wall panels or painting the ceiling black.
• There are no kids; I feel like that's a plus just because it takes away one of the things people have to plan for. But given my other goals, I actually can't see how this makes a difference.

I'm sure there is other good news... like I have 9 feet worth of height to work with before riser, and I have access to some free materials that I may want, like four old theater seats (not the newer rocker style - the older flip seat bottom and solid arm design) and a section of old screen (not sure if it will be useful at all).

Here's my current working design plan. I haven't really considered an elevation yet, but once I get the length sorted I'll be looking into that to work out screen and riser heights.

Link to YouTube

Step 00 - Measure, plan, consult, replan.
Step 01 - Demolition
Step 02 - Reframe
Step 03 - Drywall
Step 04 - Risers and Soffits
Step 05 - Pre-Wire
Step 06 - Paint
Step 07 - Fabric Walls
Step 08 - Screen, Screen Wall, and Masking
Step 09 - Carpet
Step 10 - Seating
Step 12 - Calibration
 
Speaker Build (LCR) 

Thanks for reading. In the absence of better ideas, this is approximately where I'm headed. I'd love to have your thoughts and encouragement along the way.

Fred

 

[Dingaling2004]

G'day there Fred. A picture tells a thousand words. Thanks for the video. Makes understanding your space a whole lot simpler. Would kill for your room length but in a perfect world a couple of feet more width would be great.

I am drywalling at the moment and have been really impressed so far with the noise reduction of double 5/8 drywall, green glue, clips and channel. The green glue has not cured yet but so far the room is pretty quiet. And hot to work in! The sound reduction should get better within a month or so. I would recommend this system if you are going to reline your room. Hopefully Ted may chime in with some other options re isolation. I am sure you know that the double French doors will be a weak link. Congrats for getting the bride on-board.... That's one hurdle behind you!

With your length, would you consider three rows of three chairs or maybe two rows plus a bar area? Would be a shame to waste that great room depth. I have purchased the Fabricmate track. Have not used it yet but hopefully it will simplify the installation of fabric walls and ceiling.

For your screen, Seymour AV offer well priced acoustically transparent materials.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Subscribed! Cheers. Greg.

 

[HopefulFred]

Thanks Greg for the thoughts. You've hit on a few of the items I haven't settled on yet.


Absolutely, more width would be welcome. I'm afraid it just won't happen. It would mean relocating the sump pump, set in the concrete foundation; I just don't have the stomach for that. I hope that I can find a creative way to get more people in there without serious compromises to acoustics. I'm probably not going to use the common types of dedicated seats here (Berkline, etc.), mostly to keep the budget down. Maybe I can find a sofa or combination of love seats that will allow 4 across, so I can get 8 in two rows.


I'm waiting to be convinced that 3 rows (or two plus bar) is feasible. I certainly would like it. The challange, as I see it, comes in entrance space. If the entrance to the theater is in the same current position as the double doors now, the only limit to length is budget (and my willingness to remove all the windows?). Here's my thoughts: Being width limited (and wanting a 'scope screen), I'm not even sure that I can get the third row close enough to a big enough screen to enjoy it. If the space allows it, I'm not sure I want to pay for the lumens, if you know what I mean. I hope someone can convince me, because I would definitely like it. So there's the budget for the projector, but there's also traffic flow to consider. If the doorway goes from the base of the stairs directly into the theater, I'd need two doors. There sill needs to be access to the equipment space behind the theater. Really, this is the crux of the situation; I just need a creative solution to getting around the stairs and into and out of the room. If I had that, I'd probably find the budget for an extra row and a higher power projector. (Oh, did I forget about HVAC? I did... ::mumbles to self:: I'll need some help there, too.)


I can say almost certainly that Ted will have my business. I've been eyeballing the green glue for a while now. I'll have to talk to him about clips and such after I get the old drywall out and see what I can do about staggered studs and ceiling joists that don't hang on other structures.


Seymour AV and Fabricmate are both companies I have looked at. If the product and the price is right, I'd like to have equipment from both companies. I happen to have access to some screen out of a local cineplex. I was hoping that I could save some money by building a frame to hang it on, but I'm not sure it's appropriate - it may not even be AT. If it's not, the Center Stage XD is probably my first choice. I'd love the ease of Fabricmate, but I'll need to work out some cost/benefit analysis.


Fred

 

[J_P_A]

Subscribed!


Would it be possible to put an archway under the stairs where they meet the wall on the left of your drawing? That would give you access to both sides of the basement, and would give you some flexibility in adding more length to the room and possible entrance locations to your theater.


Edit: hmmm. I think that's where you mechanicals are. Back to the drawing board.

 

[HopefulFred]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A /forum/post/21198654


I think that's where you mechanicals are. Back to the drawing board.

Right, if I was willing to move the air handler, that would be an interesting option. Firstly, I'm concerned about the expense. Second, there's not even much of a good spot to relocate it to, I think. Please keep looking, though. Eventually, one of us will find a good solution.


Thanks for following along, I really apreciate it!


Fred

 

[Brad Horstkotte]

Is the similar width room on the bottom already spoken for? If not, it seems that would give you a foot or more additional length to work with, which would provide room for false wall, two seating rows, etc. - and doesn't have the limitation of the second door that you worked around in the first space.

 

[tdong]

your width is not too wide I would suggest false wall all speakers and sub behide. you can actually use all 3 same speakers for front

seal off the window or cover them with removeable acoustic treatment panels


I would suggest two row and a bar at the back you don't want to have riser too high for the last row. I don't know your prefer screen size therefore I just estimate where the seats would be

 

[Mike Garrett]

22' of length is not enough room for AT screen, two rows of seating and a bar area. You will need more depth for all of that, but the good news is your space has plenty of depth. With 12' of width and lots of depth, I would definitely go with an AT screen. That helps keep the speakers out of the corners. Also with only 12' of width, you will only be able to get three theater seats wide, unless you buy actual movie theater chairs. You don't want any chair up against a side wall for sound purposes and you also need a walkway. With the 9' of height, you could go three rows.


I would consider the Pro design layout service that we offer. Just ask a few of the people that have used it for their opinion. If we can help you with equipment selection, let us know. Also if you have some construction questions, I would be happy to help you. I have a little experience in that area.

Moving the sump pump is work, but it is not as difficult as you might think. You would need to cut a hole in the floor in the new location. Dig the hole, install a plastic sump and grout the floor back in. Route new piping from the sump to the old piping and connect to the pump. Be sure and install a back flow preventer. Also route the electrical to the new pump location. You should not be increasing the head that the pump has to pump, so the same pump should work in the new location. If the sump was the only thing that was keeping me from having a better location for the theater, I certainly would not let it keep me from using the area. Another option would be to work around the pump if possible.

 

[HopefulFred]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte /forum/post/21198889


Is the similar width room on the bottom already spoken for? ...doesn't have the limitation of the second door that you worked around in the first space.

This is a nice idea. I'll look into the measurements at home tonight. The reservation I have is that the door to the garage is through that area. Thanks, Brad

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdong /forum/post/21198937

This is not a bad idea, but I have two concerns; the extra cost (how much extra, I don't know - two sealed doors, more seats, what about projector - how many lumens will I need?) and that you can't get directly to the exit door, without going through the theater. There's still the garage, so it may not be a big deal. This needs more thinking.


Thanks for the interest, guys.

 

[HopefulFred]

Turns out my floor plan image is more than just not to scale. I drew it too hastily, and it leaves out some details. The net result is that the other room (lower left in the image) is actually only 18.5 feet long, even if I remove the closet. So that's no improvement. Thanks anyway, Brad.


Mike, I think I agree with you that if the sump pump were the only challenge to having the dimensions I wanted, I would move it. However, it's in the same line as the stairwell - so in order to get extra width, I'd have to move both. I suppose, theoretically, I could turn the stairway halfway down and get the width for 25 to 27 feet, which would be great for a final dimension of 15 by 25, but that's just not feasible for me in terms of budget.


I need to get a better floor plan drawn up to show all the details, but suffice it to say that the area in top of the drawing is the spot I need to work with.

Thinking out loud: that still leaves me with two options (I think) - move the door and live with a 22 ft length and the limit of seating for 6 that it suggests, or don't move the door and have two doors and a walkway through the theater, using as much length as I want (see tdong's post for visual reference). Which would you chose, not considering cost for the moment?


Fred

 

[J_P_A]

How often do you use that exit?

 

[HopefulFred]

How does this sit on you?


In a room 12 feet wide, before double drywall or fabric frames, I estimate a maximum practical screen width of 10.5 feet (126 inches). This may be as little as 6 to 8 inches on either side of the screen (I really feel like this is pushing it). At 2.40 to 1, this screen is 52.5 inches tall. The total area of the screen will be 6615 square inches, or almost 46 square feet. (Can someone check my math here?) That's pretty big. Zoomed to that size, the actual projected light beam will be just over 62 square feet (around 6 feet tall). to get 12 fL on 62 square feet of screen, with unity gain, I'd need about 750 calibrated lumens. Adjusting for bulb life... well I don't know, I haven't done the research. What can get me that much light? And have I done the figuring properly?


Next, seating distances. If I want the theoretical 3rd row to have a reasonable view, let's say 20 degrees horizontal angle, It ends up 21 feet from the screen. That's almost 24 feet from the wall, and by the time you allow some acoustic space behind, that total room length stretches to say 28 feet. I can build that space (12 by 28 by 9), if I agree to the compromises...


Leaving BIG's 6+ feet for each row, the second row eyeballs end up at 15 feet from the screen, with a viewing angle of around 30 degrees. Sounds good.


6 more feet puts the front row at only 9 feet (from a 10.5 feet wide scope screen, mind you) and a horizontal viewing angle of 48 degrees. That might be a little close...?


So, for those of you who have trudged through the numbers with me here, have I convinced you a third row is impractical? or does this sound good? 48 degrees, 30 degrees, and 20 degrees...


Fred

 

[HopefulFred]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A /forum/post/21201517


How often do you use that exit?

That's a fair question.


Having only lived here a few weeks, it's tough to say. I suspect I will usually use the garage, either to exit in the car or with the lawn mower.


I don't suppose movie-night guests care about slipping out through the "projection booth" if they want to leave directly... Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of having two doors and potential traffic through the theater.

 

[J_P_A]

How many people do you expect to have watching most of the time? When you have 6 watching, do you intend to be watching movies, sports, video games, etc? If its sports, being a little far away isn't really a problem. People are going to be talking as much as watching anyway.


Most of the theaters I've seen tend to have a single prime row. Usually there is another row that is a little too close, or a little too far away, and larger theaters have one too close and one too far away. You really need to build it so that it suits you for the 90% of the time its just you and the immediate family. Even the not so great seats will be way better than what the rest of your friends have at home and still better than the local theater. Otherwise you end up with three average rows instead of one great row that you truly enjoy when you sit down for a movie. You can always give up the best seats for your BEST friends when they come over.

 

[HopefulFred]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A /forum/post/21201693


You really need to build it so that it suits you for the 90% of the time its just you and the immediate family.

I keep telling myself that, but maybe I need to hear it from you or someone who has been through it a couple times...


I expect that I'll use the theater several nights each week, and on those nights it will just be the two of us. Then, probably once a month, I'll get two or four friends over for a movie. So, really seating for 6 will be adequate for 95%+ of my use. It's just hard to let an opportunity for more go by. More is better, right?

 

[J_P_A]



I'm just repeating stuff I've read from the guys that have done it before

I'm certainly not trying to talk you out of more seats. I'm all for getting the most bang for your buck. I was just pointing out that you should probably focus on getting one row great. Let the others fall where they will. If you've got the space, put the third row in the back, but I wouldn't worry about the screen being too small for that row because it's going to be empty most of the time any way. The front row will probably be a little close, but there are plenty of people out there that like that sort of thing anyway.

 

[RTROSE]

Well, I'll chime in here too. I'll have to say that unless you have an unlimited budget you will go through and have to make some compromises along the way. The 95% "rule" is a good one to shoot for. While it would be nice to plan a theater to hold 20 people for a Superbowl party that is once a year it is a little impractical to design for that one event. Plan and design for your situation. I can't say to read, study list and plan enough. Really look at what you want and what type of viewing you do.


I think J P A said something about a prime spot, I think that is something to consider as well. But here again that is something that will depend on what kind of viewing you do. Do you sit far back, up close, or somewhere in the middle of the theater when you go? That will depend on where your sweet spot to be.


I think you have a great space to work with, a little narrow but plenty of length. I'm sure that during your build there will be things come up and challenges presenting themselves, but hey that is why we're here right? I'll be watching with a lot of interest.


I do have one question, how often does your sump pump run? How you answer this question will prompt my next response.


Good luck and get to work!


Regards,


RTROSE

 

[HopefulFred]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE /forum/post/21201875


I do have one question, how often does your sump pump run?

Funny you should ask. I really don't know much about it, but it was explained to me that the pump was there to drain the nearby bathroom, not groundwater or floodwater, as I have seen here all too often. The home inspector found that it didn't work, and the plumber we had out before our due diligence period ended confirmed the pump is bad and gave us an estimate for its replacement. That's really all I know, except that there is evidence that water sat pooled in the shower for a while.


Does that mean that "sump pump" is not the proper term? I always figured there needed to be a sump, for there to be a sump pump, but maybe that's just the term for the bucket the pump sits in. Also, I have trouble imagining toilet waste running through a pump, but if you look in the video, you'll see two pipes coming out of the pump - one vent and one effluent, headed to the street-level drain.


There is no sign of groundwater trouble, so I expect the pump will only run if the bathroom is used (crosses fingers). Does that make sense?

 

[RTROSE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred /forum/post/21201949


Funny you should ask. I really don't know much about it, but it was explained to me that the pump was there to drain the nearby bathroom, not groundwater or floodwater, as I have seen here all too often. The home inspector found that it didn't work, and the plumber we had out before our due diligence period ended confirmed the pump is bad and gave us an estimate for its replacement. That's really all I know, except that there is evidence that water sat pooled in the shower for a while.


Does that mean that "sump pump" is not the proper term? I always figured there needed to be a sump, for there to be a sump pump, but maybe that's just the term for the bucket the pump sits in. Also, I have trouble imagining toilet waste running through a pump, but if you look in the video, you'll see two pipes coming out of the pump - one vent and one effluent, headed to the street-level drain.


There is no sign of groundwater trouble, so I expect the pump will only run if the bathroom is used (crosses fingers). Does that make sense?

I would still call it a sump pump. I would investigate on the bathroom issue as if the toilet also empties into it it would be a or should be a maceration pump (to chop up the poo) and if it goes into the street level drain that is a good bet that it is just that. If by street level drain you mean sewer drain.


Here in my local the sump is required by code to empty into the storm sewer not the sanitary sewer. If it handled grey/black water (like from a kitchen or bath) it would have to be connected to the sanitary sewer. In any case I would get it working pronto as you do not want any water of any kind in your new space, trust me, I know.


Regards,


RTROSE

 

[Mike Garrett]



Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred /forum/post/21201611


How does this sit on you?


In a room 12 feet wide, before double drywall or fabric frames, I estimate a maximum practical screen width of 10.5 feet (126 inches). This may be as little as 6 to 8 inches on either side of the screen (I really feel like this is pushing it). At 2.40 to 1, this screen is 52.5 inches tall. The total area of the screen will be 6615 square inches, or almost 46 square feet. (Can someone check my math here?) That's pretty big. Zoomed to that size, the actual projected light beam will be just over 62 square feet (around 6 feet tall). to get 12 fL on 62 square feet of screen, with unity gain, I'd need about 750 calibrated lumens. Adjusting for bulb life... well I don't know, I haven't done the research. What can get me that much light? And have I done the figuring properly?


Next, seating distances. If I want the theoretical 3rd row to have a reasonable view, let's say 20 degrees horizontal angle, It ends up 21 feet from the screen. That's almost 24 feet from the wall, and by the time you allow some acoustic space behind, that total room length stretches to say 28 feet. I can build that space (12 by 28 by 9), if I agree to the compromises...


Leaving BIG's 6+ feet for each row, the second row eyeballs end up at 15 feet from the screen, with a viewing angle of around 30 degrees. Sounds good.


6 more feet puts the front row at only 9 feet (from a 10.5 feet wide scope screen, mind you) and a horizontal viewing angle of 48 degrees. That might be a little close...?


So, for those of you who have trudged through the numbers with me here, have I convinced you a third row is impractical? or does this sound good? 48 degrees, 30 degrees, and 20 degrees...


Fred

Your math for the Foot Lamberts is correct, but you need much more lumens and or a screen with gain. You don't want to start anywhere near 12FL with a new lamp. You would need a new lamp long before you put 500 hours on the projector. Short throw a JVC RS45 should give you around 900 to 1,000 lumens, high lamp, best image mode. The RS55 should be around 900 lumens, same conditions. The VW95 around 770 under same conditions. HW30 around 900 under same conditions. AE7000 around 550 same conditions. I would reduce the size of the screen if going AT, unless you are going microperf.


I would not go with three rows of seats. I would go with two rows of three seats. I know it is an odd number, but it does give you the prime seat right in the middle of the screen.

Other considerations, if your theater has multiple rows of seating, keep in mind you will need high sensitivity speakers to get decent SPL to the seats.