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Good idea. For DTV to be successful, the CE companies and broadcasters need to be more responsible to the needs of the complete range of US consumers.....
 

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I see absolutely no point in such a product, why would you even want DTV if you wanted the content provided by such a service to be downconverted to 480i? It's an HDTV STB, if you don't have an HDTV then what's the point in getting one in the first place? You may as well get a satellite receiver which is a "digital service" that provides 480i programming. Makes no sense to me whatsoever which is probably why Bob likes it. As far as price goes, price is dictated by market conditions, the size of the market, and the amount of competition. They don't arbitrarily stick a price on there. Prices will naturally fall as the market expands. So just asking for a $250 STB isn't going to magically make it drop into your hands.


[This message has been edited by dpak2000 (edited 04-03-2001).]
 

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I could'nt have said it better myself, Dpak
 

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Sounds good to me. How many people are going to just throw out their still working analog sets just because this new technology comes along that makes them obsolete? Even if a box of this kind were just used on an older set displaced elswhere in the home by a newer digital set it would be worthwhile. In fact this sort of product will be crucial to the public accepting the eventual shutoff of analog OTA broadcasts. And it should have a TIVO in it, too http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
 

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dpak.


Have you seen HDTV on a good analog set? I bet not.

The can really see the quality.


HDTV converted to 480i may only have 480 lines, but the resolution of each scan line is greatly improved. You also lose the analog noise.


There are millions of analog sets out there that would benefit from a 480i output STB.


lets open our minds.

Another Bob.




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Bob F.


"He thrusts his fists against the p-p-posts" Bill
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dpak2000:
I see absolutely no point in such a product, why would you even want DTV if you wanted the content provided by such a service to be downconverted to 480i? It's an HDTV STB, if you don't have an HDTV then what's the point in getting one in the first place?
That's kinda funny because that box is exactly what the FCC expects everyone to buy in 2006 so they can turn off all the analog stations. It does make sense, but the price needs to drop below $200 though.


Such a box does make sense . . . the majority of DTV broadcasts are *not* HDTV. DTV gives much better picture. (I watch the digital versions of my local UHF stations due to picture quality.) Also there is multi-casting, the local NBC affliate KRON shows BAYTV (a local channel) by multicasting.


But for now . .. I'd tell mom to wait. It is a bit too early for non geeks. It is literally "not ready for prime-time". Reception is difficult, programming is sparse, equipment is expensive, etc.

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dpak2000:

I see absolutely no point in such a product, why would you even want DTV if you wanted the content provided by such a service to be downconverted to 480i? It's an HDTV STB, if you don't have an HDTV then what's the point in getting one in the first place?
This is an absolute must have product. Anybody with an analog set could benefit from this. No Ghosts, No Snow, Good picture, 5.1 sound.....


There are 100's of millions of analog sets...Do you really expect every one of them to be thrown in the trash come 2006? Not hardly....with a DTV STB converter they'll be around till longer after us....


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Geof
 

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Although I will never buy another video product which does not support HD. I.E. I love the TIVO, Ultimate TV idea; but no HD, no Sale.


Millions of TVs with NTSC tuners have been sold over the last five years and millions more will be sold up until 2006 or when congress dictates a digital tuner along with NTSC tuner.


Most TVs last a decade and I think millions of viewer would pay up to $100 to buy a box that would convert a digital signal to analog for a VCR and TV in 2006. Then consumers who chose not to step up to the cost of a new HD display would not need to for another five to ten years when the cost of upgrading would be no more than buying a analog set now.


Limits the quality but extends product life. Consumers love that stuff.


Rick




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RJW
 

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Motorola has *exactly* such a new product, DTV to analog NTSC, and several manufacturers have announced they're adopting it for inclusion in some fo their new sets coming out. There were press releases on WidescreenReview last week, but the site's apparently down right now. The manufacturer's announcing that they will use it are what you might call 2nd or 3rd tier far east manufacturers; not the "prime" guys like Sony, Toshiba, Pioneer, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, or RCA.


These products will be pretty big at some point; just think about how many 20' and 27" inch TV's are still sold at under $500. It's a huge market- just one that most of us aren't interested in, at this time.


Regards,


Jon
 

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I live close to Raleigh (home of HDTV), with 4 majors currently doing digital -


At $100 - I'd have one RIGHT now, probably for every TV .


At $200 - I'd have one for the whole house and distribute it


At $500-$600 - I would pass, until I can get a Dish 6000 and the 8vsb module.


The Samsung SIRT150 is exactly what is needed - but it is priced about $300-$400 too much right now.
 

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Right on Scooper....right on....


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Geof
 

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No and I don't want to particularly see HDTV on a non HDTV set, I see no point. As I stated earlier, why buy an HDTV set top box if you don't want to watch HDTV. If you want the supposed "great picture quality" then buy a satellite receiver from Dish Network or DirecTV that provides "digital programming" in NTSC. The longer we continue to provide alternatives to HDTV, the more it gets diluted. What do you think is going to happen when you provide these set top boxes to more people than those who have HDTVs? Naturally, HDTV will die and we'll have a digital television standard with all the bogus multicasting and digital NTSC programming which another poster on here was talkign about. I could care less about multicasting or improved NTSC programming, I want the bandwith to be used for it's true purpose, 1080lines of ATSC HDTV programming. Not 15 digital NTSC channels. Once you see HDTV programming on an HDTV, there is no "digital NTSC" that will EVER compare, no matter how much you improve the picture quality.

Quote:
Originally posted by REF:
dpak.


Have you seen HDTV on a good analog set? I bet not.

The can really see the quality.


HDTV converted to 480i may only have 480 lines, but the resolution of each scan line is greatly improved. You also lose the analog noise.


There are millions of analog sets out there that would benefit from a 480i output STB.


lets open our minds.

Another Bob.

[This message has been edited by dpak2000 (edited 04-03-2001).]


[This message has been edited by dpak2000 (edited 04-03-2001).]
 

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Regarding this post, I've had a Dishplayer 6000 Dish Network system for a couple years and an older Dish Network receiver before that for my standard def analog set. I haven't seen Ghosts, Snow, for YEARS, I have a great picture, and my 6000 receiver has 5.1 sound. Oh and it's available right now for FREE with an annual contract. My point being this, if you want NTSC programming find an NTSC resource to provide that for you, such as digital cable, or a digital satellite service that provides digital NTSC programming. But DON'T hijack HDTV to provide your NTSC television with enhanced programming. When you start doing that, you dilute the HDTV standard and stick all of us with multicasting garbage and enhanced NTSC rather than the 1080 ATSC format.

Quote:
Originally posted by Geof:
This is an absolute must have product. Anybody with an analog set could benefit from this. No Ghosts, No Snow, Good picture, 5.1 sound.....


There are 100's of millions of analog sets...Do you really expect every one of them to be thrown in the trash come 2006? Not hardly....with a DTV STB converter they'll be around till longer after us....




[This message has been edited by dpak2000 (edited 04-03-2001).]
 

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dpak


Some of us have both. You don't throw out a good analog set just for spite.


Of course the digital is great!!!


The best way to reach your goal is getting most everyone to participate.


Don't you just love confrontation.



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Bob F.


"He thrusts his fists against the p-p-posts" Bill
 

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I shouldn't have said that.


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Bob F.


"He thrusts his fists against the p-p-posts" Bill



[This message has been edited by REF (edited 04-03-2001).]
 

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Originally posted by dpak2000:

No and I don't want to particularly see HDTV on a non HDTV set, I see no point. As I stated earlier, why buy an HDTV set top box if you don't want to watch HDTV. If you want the supposed "great picture quality" then buy a satellite receiver from Dish Network or DirecTV ..
Huh? that's one poor recommendation..The local networks on these systems look like crap compared to a downconverted DTv signal. Spend some time looking at these like I and others have,you'll see there is NO comparison.


Make the DTC100 (or equivalent)available for $200..then, HD/DTv will take

off.IMHO, the main problem with the DTC100, is that few retailers know how to sell it...


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Regards,

Bob Davis, DOE

WCCB-Fox18/WCCB-DT27
 

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And a downconverted DTV signal looks like crap compared to an ATSC HDTV signal, that's my only point. You want all this support for NTSC tv's, that's fine, but when the day comes that they abandon the HDTV format and use that DTV signal for multicasting 15 digital 480i channels in a space originally designed for a single HDTV channel, is the day I DREAD. There is no comparison, HDTV is much much better.

Quote:
Originally posted by bdfox18doe:

Huh? that's one poor recommendation..The local networks on these systems look like crap compared to a downconverted DTv signal. Spend some time looking at these like I and others have,you'll see there is NO comparison.

[/b]



[This message has been edited by dpak2000 (edited 04-03-2001).]
 

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I'm working on my list of things to do at NAB (the NAB Convention) in 3 weeks.

Number 1 on my list is, ask the NAB why they don't contract with someone to see just exactly how inexpensively a STB can be made. (That's without subsidizing the cost with DISH or DirecTV subscription fees.)

I've tried to get some info from the chip makers, but no one wants to talk.


I believe that the threshold point, where people will start buying is....

$199 for a SDTV box, with 480i analog video, S-VHS, left/right audio, and DD output.

$299 for an HDTV box.


In 2006, all local stations go digital-only..."granny factor" or not! At least, that's what Con-gress is saying now. So, yes, there IS a need for "converter" boxes, as well as HDTV STB's.


(I'd ask the NAB why THEY don't BUILD them, but they took it in the shorts over a top quality AM Stereo/FM Stereo tuner, the Denon TU-680NAB, several years ago. Now, only audiophiles have them...and they sound great. But, the general public didn't want them.)


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Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT.

"Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dpak2000:
The longer we continue to provide alternatives to HDTV, the more it gets diluted. What do you think is going to happen when you provide these set top boxes to more people than those who have HDTVs? Naturally, HDTV will die and we'll have a digital television standard with all the bogus multicasting and digital NTSC programming which another poster on here was talkign about...
I have seen the demos of HDTV at Best Buy and the others. The picture was unarguably far superior to "good old" NTSC. I can tell you one thing, though; no matter HOW good the picture is there will always be plenty of us rabble at the low end of the economic scale who will NEVER pay more than about $500-600 for a TV. It doesn't have to have the most awesome picture ever developed. I also expect to keep it for at least 10 years regardless of whatever the latest advances in technology bring. Sure, I understand that this is a home theater discussion board and I like to come here and learn and dream big dreams. But when it comes down to it the cost of a TV takes a back seat to an awful lot of other things in life. I suspect that there are many who share my view and would gladly take the modest increase in picture quality of a downconverted DTV signal onto an older analog set over paying thousands of $$ for a new digital set. There will continue to be a high end market of course. But if broadcast HDTV dies for lack of acceptance in the marketplace then may it rest in peace.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dpak2000:
And a downconverted DTV signal looks like crap compared to an ATSC HDTV signal, that's my only point. You want all this support for NTSC tv's, that's fine, but when the day comes that they abandon the HDTV format and use that DTV signal for multicasting 15 digital 480i channels in a space originally designed for a single HDTV channel, is the day I DREAD. There is no comparison, HDTV is much much better.
No one is questioning that HDTV is better--you're not the only one who's seen it, we've ALL seen it (that's why we participate in this forum). However, prior to purchasing my wonderful 73" HDTV over a year ago, I bought a DTC100 and hooked it up to a 35" RCA analog TV, just to see if I could receive the digital signals. Lo and behold, not only was the picture 10x sharper than my cable picture, I realized that this was a way to get FREE DIGITAL LOCAL STATIONS (instead of paying the monthly fee DSS charges for *incomplete* local station packages). Also, if your goal is the advancement of HDTV, then you're on the wrong side of this debate. By increasing the number of people tuning into the digital OTA stations (rather than the < .01% who have HDTV+STB setups) then broadcasters would start noticing that there is a much larger audience watching those stations, HD or otherwise. I would posit that this would speed up, rather than hinder, the rollout of digital OTA, and subsequently, HDTV. You tell me: if a network was already predisposed to showing non-HD programming (read: FOX) on their digital channel, does dramatically increasing the number of viewers reinforce their current position, or would it fuel competition?

 
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