[cpc]

Using your AE100 setup with your personal techniques to minimize screen door, whatever they may be, (filter, low gain screen, defocusing etc) what is the distance where you cannot see screen door (say less than 1% of you viewing time or as sloce to zero). Rather than watch clips, do this:


Set up your AE100 and choose the scene or graphic still that shows screen door very well. Then move back (if possible!) and measure exactly how far back it takes before you cannot see screen door AT ALL. Try to be precise, meaning, if you reach a point where it disappears, step forward a bit until it is visible and then go back again and find the exact point where it is totally absent in your view. To be sure, continue to watch a few other shots or clips where you normally see screen door. Shouldn't take more than 5 to 10 minutes. Record this distance and distance vs screen width ratio and report it here.


Just a curious test to see what the absolute range is. Everybody talks about how far back they were when they couldn't see screen door, but perhaps we could get a poll as to how far back they have to be to eliminate screen door 100%

 

[Mark Hunter]

Hi cpc,


This is a good idea, but the screen door visibility doesn't exactly work like that.


When you are very close, you can see the "grid" clearly. As you move further back, there is a point, when the grid outline is not visible, but the image appears "grainy", like it is being projected on a sand-blasted surface. There is no "screen door", per se, but the pixels are still visible in their own unique way.


Then at some point further back, the image becomes as smooth as if it were not created from pixels. I think that most of the range is in neither the "grid" nor the "smooth" visibility, but in the "grainy" middle area.


I don't have an AE100, but this is true for every digital projector I've seen.


Mark

 

[mbw23air]

When I had my AE100 on a 80" wide screen I needed to be at least 1.8x screen width back to not see it when there was no movement on the screen. When the camera panned left or right, especially on light backgrounds that is when I saw the screen door the most and when it bothered me. I couldn't move past 2.5X screen width back though as my room wasn't deep enough. So even with defocussing and using a filter I could see it on camera pans 2.5x screen width back. That is just my preference though and it might not bother other people at that distance but it was a killer for me thus I sold it to a friend.


Mike

 

[cpc]

milori,


OK, but it is still possible to report on what distance you do not see screen door at. It is up to you to determine what "not seeing screen door" means. Sure, it might mean that its hazy enough that it does not appear obvious or maybe for some, it means you can't see it at all. As long as people explain themselves, then its still a valid question at this point.


How about the distance where screen door is at a minimum, and moving further than that distance does not make screen door less noticable.


I'm asking for people to report on the best possible estimate for the distance in ratio of screen width that screen door is not an issue for them, in in most cases, this would mean screen door is not visible or at the very least, not noticable or distracting and moving further back does not improve the viewing experience. Just a general estimate of the point of diminishing returns so to speak. People have posted this information in verious forms all over the ae100 threads, so now that people have had their ae100's for a while and are used to them, and have tweaked their setup, it is possible to re-visit the screen door and report the above information. People are free to comment as to whether they are in the "grainy middle area" as you refer to it, or have they gone far enough back to achieve what they perceive as a very "smooth" picture.


I have seen an AE100 in action and I for one was able to go back to a certain distance and see ZERO screen door. I never measured to see how far back I was, so I'm curious what the distance was.


Anyways people feel free to comment generally on your experience with screen door and viewing distance and qualify your comments however you like

 

[cpc]

mbw23air,


Interesting. So you saw screen door at 2.5x? Wow. I honestly can't recall seeing it at that distance. I know I don't have the viewing distances that I tried recorded precisely, but I went back what I know must have been less than 2.5x and I just couldn't see any screen door. I rearely saw it even at 1.3x so thats weird. I'd like to learn a bit more about your setup.


What screen did you use (what gain)?

What source player?

What connection?

What filter?

Any other system setup or projector setup information?

What program material resulted in the most screen door visibility in those "pans" you refer too?


Thanks in advance for any info, its useful to know

 

[mbw23air]

Quote:

Interesting. So you saw screen door at 2.5x? Wow. I honestly can't recall seeing it at that distance. I know I don't have the viewing distances that I tried recorded precisely, but I went back what I know must have been less than 2.5x and I just couldn't see any screen door. I rearely saw it even at 1.3x so thats weird. I'd like to learn a bit more about your setup.

When I see the screen door it is more like vertical banding in light backgrounds. Like if the sky is in the background and the camera pans left to right. Of course I don't see it on dark backgrounds. I was selling the AE100's on Ebay for a while and got to check out 4 of them and the vertical banding I saw was on all 4.


Quote:

What screen did you use (what gain)?

I tried a Draper 1.3 gain 45"x80" screen and a 1.0 gain Da-Lite 45"x80" screen. Vertical banding was apparent on both about the same.

Quote:

What source player?

I used both a HTPC with Theatertek that was pixel perfect using the VGA input and I tried a Toshiba 6200 DVD player through component input. HTPC was a little better but vertical banding was still there on both.

Quote:

What filter?

I tried 2 different filters. A Hoya FL-Day filter and a Hoya HMC-81B filter. Both lessened the screen door a little bit.

Quote:

Any other system setup or projector setup information?

I defocussed projector as much as possible and vertical lines were still present, if you walk up to screen when the camera pans it is apparent that it is the space between the pixels or the screen door that is causing this.

Quote:

What program material resulted in the most screen door visibility in those "pans" you refer too?

Again, it only bothered me when the background was white or light colored. Like the sky and such. When the camera pans its like there is small dark vertical lines moving across the background. It doesnt bother me when there is no movement and it is not there on my DLP projector.


I have had several people who looked at my AE100 and most thought it was excellent and the screen door wouldn't bother them. It just happens to bother me. So, if you are a videophile and demand a great picture it might bother you too but there are lots of people who love the AE100 so I don't know what to tell you.


Mike

 

[cpc]

Mike,


Interesting, thanks for the feedback.


Anybody else with screen door viewing distance examples?

 

[Mancubus]

Quote:

When I see the screen door it is more like vertical banding in light backgrounds. Like if the sky is in the background and the camera pans left to right. Of course I don't see it on dark backgrounds.

The vertical banding you're describing sounds like the vertical banding from the LCD panels itself and not true 'screen door' effect. Considering that you saw it on all the AE100's you tried it could have been your source (or cables) that was the culprit. I was able to greatly reduce the vertical banding that I saw on my AE100 by going with a different cable. Now all that's left is the banding which appears on the green panel only. Once someone figures out how to get into the service menu and adjust the voltage on the green panel, I'm confident that I will eliminate it. For now, it doesn't bother me unless I am deliberately looking for it.

 

[mbw23air]

Quote:

The vertical banding you're describing sounds like the vertical banding from the LCD panels itself and not true 'screen door' effect. Considering that you saw it on all the AE100's you tried it could have been your source (or cables) that was the culprit. I was able to greatly reduce the vertical banding that I saw on my AE100 by going with a different cable.

I used a Bettercables HD15 VGA cable and I also had a cheaper one I tried. It was always there. Never saw it using same equipment on my DLP projector or with CRT projector either.


Thanks,

Mike

 

[cpc]

Hey Mancubus. Do me a favour and try the screendoor thingy? Just display something awefully screendoor looking, with your filter on and good defocussing and walk back behind yer couch, mark and measure when screen door vanishes. It vanished for me, not too far back there, but i can't remember how far it was in terms of x screen width.


Whenever you have a moment


PS Cool that you have minimized the banding. maybe when you get into the service mode one day and cure the banding you'll find a tweak that reduces screen door further

 

[goodsonr]

RE: Banding during pans in sky .. from mbw23air...


Actually it sounds more like this (quote from the famous .. or is that infamous Li On) in his post of AE100 drawbacks.....


"- interlace-scan-line-like artifact in vertical motion object, it happens in all LCD projector I saw including the newest Epson TW100. After awhile, I can live with it "


I noted he said all LCD projectors. Its something I hadn't heard about but nor did I persue the issue. Not exactly the same, as Mike said horizontal pans. But anytime an artifact appears on motion, and then is gone when the motion stops probably implies more than just screendoor.


Or .. I could be totally wrong. The joy of the internet .. you can be wrong and there are few personal consequences.


ron

 

[cpc]

The banding I saw was light and not very distracting and apparantly mancubus improved on it.

 

[Li On]

Quote:

Originally posted by goodsonr "- interlace-scan-line-like artifact in vertical motion object, it happens in all LCD projector I saw including the newest Epson TW100. After awhile, I can live with it "

Hi ron,


The interlace-scan-line-like artifacts in vertical motion object and faint vertical banding are 2 different things.


The interlace-scan-line-like artifacts in vertical motion object is clearly always there on every LCD projectors I saw from my old Mit. LVP-L1000 VGA projector 5 years ago, the Sony W400, 10/11HT, a Mit LVP-L10000 XGA, my current Panny AE100, the newest Epson TW100 and every other LCD projectors I saw. The issue is clear as day. I can't possible believe that people don't see such artifacts. Having say that, I can now somehow live with the issue. And sometimes I thing it maybe somewhat related to eyes movement/tracking of the on screen objects. At least it's way better than the DLP motion artifacts.


The faint vertical banding is a new issue to me. I can't remember if such problem exist on those old LCD projector I saw before. I can't even recall seeing such problem on the Sony 10HT (I did a review a while ago. Search it in the forum).


At least on my AE100 setup, the faint vertical banding changes with cable. I only use the AE100 15pin VGA port. So far it seems shorter cable has MORE banding. A standard 6' stock VGA cable gives TONS of banding. My DIY 30' Cat5 FTP VGA cable has the min banding so far. I can live with it now and hope to try more cable to find out the real case. I believe most AE100 users are having more banding than I had.


Now I live with the AE100 and see the vertical banding issue, I saw the same problem in my testing of the new Epson TW100 720p LCD projector.


Now back to screendoor issue...


regards,


Li On

 

[cpc]

Quote:

interlace-scan-line-like artifacts in vertical motion object and faint vertical banding

Having only spent one 3 to 4 hour session viewing multiple movie clips on the ae100, I was not bothered by the interlace-scan-line-like artifacts, or I didn't see them. I noticed the vertical banding but it was not an issue. My only concern, in so far as the experience I have had already, is the screendoor period. Black level didn't bother me either.

 

[arcam]

what are these DLP motion artifacts Li-On talks about? some examples please?

 

[goodsonr]

Hi Li On


I wasn't doubting you .. and in fact .. I see this "interlace scanline-like.." artifact all the time on vertical pans on bright solid colours (ie .. the sky). Like you, though, I can live with it. Its just that your note was the first time I had seen it mentioned.


For the money, still quite happy with the AE100. Tonight, however, I get to see the Hitachi LCOS in action. Let's hope I don't get spoiled.


ron

 

[Arnax]

cpc, I don't understand what point you're trying to make !


First, AE-100 has screendoor. I've got one, and can see screendoor at about any distance in my room (the farther I can go from the screen is 4x to 4.5x screen width). Especially on subtitles, they keep a pixel structure even from far away. That is only if I want to see it of course.


Second, the whole idea of Home Theater is to get theater feelings, to have the sensation of being in the image. So it's pointless to have a big screen if you sit far away, you loose all the theater experience. You'd rather keep with your TV !


I sit at 2x, keep the best focus cause I like sharp pictures, have no filter, and am not bothered at all by the screendoor effect, which I can nevertheless see if I want to on almost every scene.


So either you just want to enjoy watching flicks on a big screen at home on a small budget and the AE-100 is one of the good choices (if not the best), or you can't help noticing each and every picture imperfection and you'd rather give up the idea of a digital affordable PJ.


just my 2 Canadian cents (how much is that in real money ? )

 

[cpc]

Wow. I was just wondering how far away each person sits in order not to see screen door. Seeing pixels and seeing screen door are two different things to me. I see pixels on NTSC TV's if the graphic is lousy enough. here is what I am talking about:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=137097


The grid that you see in those pics is the screen door I am refering to.


Anyways, I was just wondering now that everyone has had their AE100 for a while and tweaked them a bit they might have changed their viewing distance required to have zero screen door.

 

[Robin]

Almost six weeks now and my opinion remains as follows:


To quash the appearance of pixels, a viewing distance of ~2.5X the width of the full 16:9 image is required (~3.5X the width of the 4:3 section). This distance combined with slight defocusing does it for me. Any closer and more defocusing is required; enough so that detail begins to be lost.


At times I can *still* see the "screendoor" even at this relative distance, but the image is *essentially* CRT smooth (and very detailed) for me.


Robin

 

[Kramer]

The vertical banding I, & I assume most people complain of is not source or cable related.


It is clearly visible in the service menu mode, displaying blue, green & red test screens.


These are directly from within the AE-100, with no source connected.


To me these are equally as distracting as the screen door issue.


Noticeable clearly on lightly coloured backgrounds (sky etc..), especially during horizontal pans.


If any owners want to check their units, go to the service menu & display the test screens. It's even more apparent if you move your head from side to side while looking at the screen