[benareeno]

I'm looking at galleries of DIY projects with people making horizontal center speakers for behind a screen...this is completely ridiculous.


Horizontal center speakers are a compromise at the best of times...if and when it can be done, the center speaker should be identical to the mains. And surely, when behind a screen it must be identical..there is no reason for it not to be.


THis goes to show how years of people seeing horizontal center speakers can make people believe this is the way they should be built.


Even if the speaker is above or below a display, it should still be vertical and identical to the mains. The horizontal center speaker was created by marketing and wife acceptance....it is an absolute compromise of sound quality. Please...don't fall into this ridiculous compromise!

 

[Scott Simonian]

Yeah... I'm working on that.


I had a regular rptv before I went to an AT front projection video system. Couldn't fit the 'proper' center channel at the time.

 

[beastaudio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Simonian Yeah... I'm working on that. I had a regular rptv before I went to an AT front projection video system. Couldn't fit the 'proper' center channel at the time.

Or just go coax and call it a day

I'm working on THAT!

 

[benareeno]

by coax do you mean a phantom center with 2 mains?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by benareeno I'm looking at galleries of DIY projects with people making horizontal center speakers for behind a screen...this is completely ridiculous. Horizontal center speakers are a compromise at the best of times...if and when it can be done, the center speaker should be identical to the mains. And surely, when behind a screen it must be identical..there is no reason for it not to be. THis goes to show how years of people seeing horizontal center speakers can make people believe this is the way they should be built. Even if the speaker is above or below a display, it should still be vertical and identical to the mains. The horizontal center speaker was created by marketing and wife acceptance....it is an absolute compromise of sound quality. Please...don't fall into this ridiculous compromise!

Some of us have been saying this for many years.

 

[vitod]

Most people have speakers in FRONT of the screen. By going vertical, you get into screen real estate. That's why a horizontal CC makes sense, BELOW or ABOVE the screen.

 

[benareeno]

it doesn't make any sense to me...speakers sound like crap when they are horizontal.


How big of a center speaker would you have and how low to the floor or high to the ceiling is your screen? my screen is at least 3 feet off the ground...so, only speakers that are higher than 3 feet would be a problem.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitod Most people have speakers in FRONT of the screen. By going vertical, you get into screen real estate. That's why a horizontal CC makes sense, BELOW or ABOVE the screen.

That's an aesthetic and/or ergonomic sense but audio is still compromised.

 

[benareeno]

coax speakers, like car speakers?


Are they good for HT in some way?

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/20890464


That's an aesthetic and/or ergonomic sense but audio is still compromised.

That depends on the design of the speaker. A three way horizontal speaker can sound just fine.

 

[Tom Bley]



Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20891975


coax speakers, like car speakers?


Are they good for HT in some way?

You've never heard or seen JTR Speakers? Seaton Sound? Their designs use a coax for the mids/highs. There are other manufacturers as well.

 

[Kal Rubinson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/20892315


That depends on the design of the speaker. A three way horizontal speaker can sound just fine.

Sure. A horizontal box with a vertically-arrayed mid and HF.

 

[penngray]

We have to stop thinking that when we post the word "compromise" that it automatically means "Will sound like Crap".


Every thing we do in Audio has some compromise. A compromise can be something that isnt really even audible to most people.


Having no CC "Phantom Center" is a compromise but enjoyed by many (including myself).


Having a Horizontal CC is a compromise but enjoyed by 99% who have a horizontal center channel speaker. Kal and JPC posted when a CC can be okay, vertical MF, HF can remove the issues. We can also design XOs for drivers horizontally position to remove most of the nasty stuff (Steep slopes). There are so many ways to build a speaker...its just bad to generalize.


Having no dedicated HT room is a compromise to the HT experence but enjoyed by 99.9% who watch movies.


Having low sensitivity speakers and limited amp power is a compromise to the HT experience but also they are enjoyed by 99.9% of those who own those types of speakers.


BOSE is a HUGE compromise to SQ but again, a large majority of the public actually loves them.


The list of compromises is very, very, very, very long.


Once we stop thinking its an attacking on our own choices when someone else posts "That is a compromise" the faster we can move on to just understanding all the compromises that exist in audio. Its great to educate people on why something is a compromise along with telling them that it might not matter to them also.


Yes, Having a horizontal CC, having no CC is a compromise wrt hypothetical audio perfection BUT every individual has to make a decision if that compromise is okay with them. Last I checked there are 1000s of different cars (very bad ones on the road). Society is never going to conform to the exact same choices, everyone has their own priorities.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20890432


it doesn't make any sense to me...speakers sound like crap when they are horizontal.


How big of a center speaker would you have and how low to the floor or high to the ceiling is your screen? my screen is at least 3 feet off the ground...so, only speakers that are higher than 3 feet would be a problem.

My screen is 4.5 feet of the ground, IF I ever stop building speakers I will build a CC to match until then Im happy. Im also very happy (like everyone else) with using horizontal CCs over the years.


If a horizontal CC sounds like crap to you, do not get one....but you have to understand your opinion is only yours and it should have no weight in what others decide and enjoy.


btw, what picture shows a bad CC???

Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20891975


coax speakers, like car speakers?


Are they good for HT in some way?

Coax drivers can be found in cars but they are also available for any speaker design.


Coax driver are found in high end HT speakers so yes obviously they are very good...Seaton, Danley, JTR, Tannoy to name a few of the high end choices.

 

[CZ Eddie]



Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20890432


my screen is at least 3 feet off the ground.

How big is your screen and how high is your ceiling?

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Don't always blame bad engineering on marketeers. We know that horizontally placed drivers isn't a good idea, but the average consumer doesn't, and the vast majority of the unwashed masses would rather have something that looks good than sounds good. If you know better just don't buy them. If you really know better you're building your own anyway.

 

[beastaudio]



Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20891975


coax speakers, like car speakers?


Are they good for HT in some way?

They are great, but not quite like the car audio world coaxes. HT use ones use compression drivers that either bolt or screw onto the magnet of the 8,10,12" driver and fire directly through the backside of the cone. one big hole that the CD fills all the way through the center of the mid. This way, the high and mid, are all perfectly aligned, in a square box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley /forum/post/20892336


You've never heard or seen JTR Speakers? Seaton Sound? Their designs use a coax for the mids/highs. There are other manufacturers as well.

Im doing my build for this exact reason. to match my JTR triple12's

 

[Steve_Vai_rules]

I fail to see how someone who doesn't even know that coax's can be found in home speakers should really be critiquing the value behind a horizontal speaker. Yes in fact there are ways to make it work well. An mtm or hf over mf or even rotating the wave guide 90 degrees so that the dispersion is the same can all sound good, and even look good. That fact that you are making a mountain out of something that really isn't that big of an issue (when designed for properly) shows you really don't get it. Like penn has stated audio is a compromise and beyond that HT's are a compromise. Even in one of cineramax's million dollar theaters there are compromises. Audio is compromised by acoustically transparent screens (as no material is truly transparent), so to get that large screen size you make compromises. In some cases depending on the quality of the screen using a horizontal array will sound BETTER then it's vertical partner behind an AT screen. You say it sounds like crap, why does it sound like crap? Perhaps you are just biased. Because in my space my horizontal array sounds perfectly fine and measures very closely to my mains. Some slight differences of course but not enough to barely noticeable let alone make it sound like crap. Hell even a vertical array of drivers is itself a compromise why do you think tom danley spent so much time and effort on his synergy designs? What about coaxs and full range drivers....


To me it just looks like OP is wanting to rant and doesn't really get the big picture. Also horizontal arrays were created not by marketing and WAF but because people wanted center channels and couldnt put a vertical main IN FRONT OF THEIR NON AT SCREEN or TV. (note that non AT screens are better visually, and seeing how we are visual creatures and MORE of our brain is dedicated to processing visual information most people will accept audio compromises versus picture compromises.)


Facepalm.jpeg

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice /forum/post/20892598


Don't always blame bad engineering on marketeers. We know that horizontally placed drivers isn't a good idea, but the average consumer doesn't, and the vast majority of the unwashed masses would rather have something that looks good than sounds good. If you know better just don't buy them. If you really know better you're building your own anyway.

Good point, it kind of reminds me of a hockey coach 30 years ago.....talking to us when we SUCKED.



If you can not do something very well then atleast you you better look good when doing it

 

[benareeno]

a horizontal mtm is about as bad as it gets...