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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read in the web and forums about problems with tv sets and many times when someone finds a real indisputable problem with a set, there will always be people that will respond saying "where is it? my set doesn't have that problem!" or "I don't see it if I don't look for it, so there's no problem, the set is perfect!".


Am I the only one who finds this notion illogical and problematic?


I mean come on, display technology is extremely complex and there are many many ways to be imperfect and there is absolutely no perfect display anywhere.


When a display has problem, the problem exists, it's there, period! There is nothing argue about it, either you join the force to fix it, or you shut up, say nothing and live with it!


People are sometimes so confident with their purchase, that even if there is a gaping hole right in the center of the display, with a clown's hand sticking out giving the finger, they will say "oh, you must have very sensitive eyes, I don't see it, maybe because I don't look for it" and all of a sudden you have "sensitive eyes"! Reality check here guys, if you don't have a real known optical problem, we all have the same pair of eyes with more or less the same sensitivity, evolution took care of that.


For instance, let's take flickering. Flickering in some display technologies exists; it's there and there is nothing to talk about. When you take a non-flickering display and put it next to a flickering display suddenly everybody will see that it flickers. So was it that flickering didn't exist before, and that people somehow engaged their eye's sensitivity the moment they started the comparison? No, it's simple, it was always there! Period, end of story, finito la musica.


Another example is the Panasonic's floating blacks issue, it's there, you can measure it with a colorimeter, you can see it with you eyes, in fact it's so evident that's disturbing! People are screaming their lungs out complaining it about it. And it's in ALL 2010 models, there are no special ones that they don't have it, there are no special modes that they don't have it. It's in ALL modes, in ALL models, in ALL resolutions, in ALL configurations. But then you have people claiming that "oh thx mode doesn't have it" or "Now after xxx hours it is fixed" or "my set is special, it doesn't have it". Well let me enlighten you, it does have it, the blacks flactuate! If you "can't" see it, just take a colorimeter and measure it because it's there. Period.


Same goes for endless other issues, in all the TV sets, all brands and all models, there are problems where when people find them there will always be a stupendously long debate from people who just "don't see the clown hand sticking out the hole in the middle"!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektarios /forum/post/19561508


I read in the web and forums about problems with tv sets and many times when someone finds a real indisputable problem with a set, there will always be people that will respond saying "where is it? my set doesn't have that problem!" or "I don't see it if I don't look for it, so there's no problem, the set is perfect!".


Am I the only one who finds this notion illogical and problematic?


I mean come on, display technology is extremely complex and there are many many ways to be imperfect and there is absolutely no perfect display anywhere.


When a display has problem, the problem exists, it's there, period! There is nothing argue about it, either you join the force to fix it, or you shut up, say nothing and live with it!


People are sometimes so confident with their purchase, that even if there is a gaping hole right in the center of the display, with a clown's hand sticking out giving the finger, they will say "oh, you must have very sensitive eyes, I don't see it, maybe because I don't look for it" and all of a sudden you have "sensitive eyes"! Reality check here guys, if you don't have a real known optical problem, we all have the same pair of eyes with more or less the same sensitivity, evolution took care of that.


For instance, let's take flickering. Flickering in some display technologies exists; it's there and there is nothing to talk about. When you take a non-flickering display and put it next to a flickering display suddenly everybody will see that it flickers. So was it that flickering didn't exist before, and that people somehow engaged their eye's sensitivity the moment they started the comparison? No, it's simple, it was always there! Period, end of story, finito la musica.


Another example is the Panasonic's floating blacks issue, it's there, you can measure it with a colorimeter, you can see it with you eyes, in fact it's so evident that's disturbing! People are screaming their lungs out complaining it about it. And it's in ALL 2010 models, there are no special ones that they don't have it, there are no special modes that they don't have it. It's in ALL modes, in ALL models, in ALL resolutions, in ALL configurations. But then you have people claiming that "oh thx mode doesn't have it" or "Now after xxx hours it is fixed" or "my set is special, it doesn't have it". Well let me enlighten you, it does have it, the blacks flactuate! If you "can't" see it, just take a colorimeter and measure it because it's there. Period.


Same goes for endless other issues, in all the TV sets, all brands and all models, there are problems where when people find them there will always be a stupendously long debate from people who just "don't see the clown hand sticking out the hole in the middle"!

Wow, really?


I don't think people around here (in either camp) are saying the problems don't exist. I think they're saying the problems aren't as bad as some people are claiming them to be, or they are saying that the problem isn't interfering with their ability to enjoy their sets.


Some people claim they can see dithering (I've seen it) and others claim never to have seen it. In pretty much every case where people claimed to have seen dithering, they mention it becomes invisible when you move to a normal seating distance from the display. Isn't it highly possible that those who claim never to have seen it sit far enough back to where it is never a problem for them? And since they've never seen it, is it not reasonable for them to dispute the claims of those who have?


I'm having a similar discussion about LCD Viewing angles on these message boards. I just don't see much (if any) of a drop in contrast when I go off angle to most LCD's made after 2008. There are members of this board who probably think I'm either crazy or half blind (or possibly both) because LCD viewing angle issues are well known and documented. I just think people are being nitpicky. I've never denied that they do lose a bit of contrast in the off angle, in fact I've mentioned that I have seen a very very slight drop in contrast and color off angle to some sets I have viewed, but that it didn't make the tv unwatchable by any stretch of the imagination and I wholeheartedly believe the LCD viewing angle conspiracy to be overblown with modern LCD sets....its just a "talking point" for PDP fans to tout over LCD owners as evidence of PDP's "superiority". As far as I'm concerned its a "non-issue", but never ever have I said that it doesn't exist.


And as far as eye sensitivity goes, do a little research. It took me 3 seconds to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness


And thats simply 1 aspect of vision, which is a highly complicated neurological process. If you think varying levels of sensitivity do not exist, you need to head back to school.
 

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Just want to add that high tech is so mass produced nowadays that people take it for granted. People forget that electronics are inherently unstable and it is all about tolerance levels for them to accomplish their tasks.


No 2 sets are exactly the same and people don't have the same perception. As the title imply, if you don't look for it, you won't find it. Kids have the sharpest eyes but they don't seemed bothered by flicker or judder.


Arguments sometimes stem from our belief or philosophy that science is deterministic ie only one answer. But that is already understood as classical physics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite /forum/post/19561634


Wow, really?


I don't think people around here (in either camp) are saying the problems don't exist. I think they're saying the problems aren't as bad as some people are claiming them to be, or they are saying that the problem isn't interfering

with their ability to enjoy their sets.


... [SNIP]

No they do, they say they don't exist because they "don't" see them. I'm frustrated about them and not the ones who accept them even if they don't see or get bothered by them.

Quote:
Some people claim they can see dithering (I've seen it) and others claim never to have seen it. In pretty much every case where people claimed to have seen dithering, they mention it becomes invisible when you move to a normal seating distance from the display. Isn't it highly possible that those who claim never to have seen it sit far enough back to where it is never a problem for them? And since they've never seen it, is it not reasonable for them to dispute the claims of those who have?

That's exactly the issue here. Dithering exists and there is nothing we can do to change it and no it is not reasonable for them to dispute it's existence. They can argue, and I will agree, that it is not perceivable and maybe a non-factor from some distance. But I hate it when they just don't accept that it actually really exists.

Quote:
I'm having a similar discussion about LCD Viewing angles on these message boards. .... [SNIP] ... As far as I'm concerned its a "non-issue", but never ever have I said that it doesn't exist.

Yes and I like your point, you accept it exists, but you don't see it and subjectively don't think it's a big issue. That's a sound point and I support you on this. But when I'll ask you, if LCDs have angle viewing problems, will you objectively tell me that they do but you personally have no problems with it, or you will just say to me that they don't?

Quote:
And as far as eye sensitivity goes, do a little research. It took me 3 seconds to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness


And thats simply 1 aspect of vision, which is a highly complicated neurological process. If you think varying levels of sensitivity do not exist, you need to head back to school.

That's color blindness, not flicker sensitivity (luminance variation sensitivity which humans have a very high one; to spot fast predators/animals/insects because it is very elemental for surviving in the jungle) blindness, it's not the same thing. Even if I take it as an argument, is rare to be color blinded, therefore most of the people have "sensitive eyes" and are perfectly capable to see the flickering and not the other way around.
 

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yet another (very) thinly disguised "lcd vs. plasma" thread...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_j /forum/post/19562021


OP - while you're at it would you also mind letting us know if a tree falling in a forest when no one is around makes a noise?

No but I will disclose to you that even if you try hard enough not to look, there are children in the third world countries that die of hunger.
 
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