The real lesson behind the LT150 feeding frenzy
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Acually projector manufcturers are there!!
But most dealers who carry any type of projectors are "higher-end" meaning the mass merchant retailers (Circuit-city,Best Buy,etc.)do not have Joe Consumer trained by the Sunday paper on what is available.
I know that many projector companies are working with mass retailers to get projectors in their stores very soon....
CEDIA has alot in store for DLP to mature and kill the little bugs that the "high and mighty" CRT guys don't want to be fixed so they can continue to sell overpriced,outdated, analog CRT monsters.
As soon as the scalers are a little cheaper it will put CRT projectors where they belong....
KD
But most dealers who carry any type of projectors are "higher-end" meaning the mass merchant retailers (Circuit-city,Best Buy,etc.)do not have Joe Consumer trained by the Sunday paper on what is available.
I know that many projector companies are working with mass retailers to get projectors in their stores very soon....
CEDIA has alot in store for DLP to mature and kill the little bugs that the "high and mighty" CRT guys don't want to be fixed so they can continue to sell overpriced,outdated, analog CRT monsters.
As soon as the scalers are a little cheaper it will put CRT projectors where they belong....
KD
Hell those projectors are all aimed for business data use so they carry business price tags. They'll pay whatever amount, deduct taxes and care less. Hopefully one day there will be projectors dedicated to videoprojection for normal consumers and those projectors will have a normal price tag. I still keep hoping....
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KD
Just in case you were not aware, a lot of us "high and mighty" CRT guys hang out here in addition to the CRT forum. Some of us even own lamp projectors as well. You make us sound like a bunch a of arrogant snobs. You haven't been around here long enough to get to know any of us so your comments are unnecessarily inflamatory and are out of line.
I for one would love nothing more than to see lamp technology rise to the level where it would compell me to abandon my CRT. But as it now stands nothing affordable can match it for viewing film source DVDs.
Please explain what scalers has to do with anything. I already have HTPC and I cannot imagine getting a better picture on my projector at any price.
--Jerome
| Originally posted by AV-NUT: CEDIA has alot in store for DLP to mature and kill the little bugs that the "high and mighty" CRT guys don't want to be fixed so they can continue to sell overpriced,outdated, analog CRT monsters. As soon as the scalers are a little cheaper it will put CRT projectors where they belong.... KD |
Just in case you were not aware, a lot of us "high and mighty" CRT guys hang out here in addition to the CRT forum. Some of us even own lamp projectors as well. You make us sound like a bunch a of arrogant snobs. You haven't been around here long enough to get to know any of us so your comments are unnecessarily inflamatory and are out of line.
I for one would love nothing more than to see lamp technology rise to the level where it would compell me to abandon my CRT. But as it now stands nothing affordable can match it for viewing film source DVDs.
Please explain what scalers has to do with anything. I already have HTPC and I cannot imagine getting a better picture on my projector at any price.
--Jerome
Keep breathing, Jerome!
The best setup I have ever seen, bar none, is the sony G90 with Faroudja processing at CES. Man, if I had the hundred K this setup costs, I'd have it in a minute.
CRT offers a great bang for the buck these days, but you have to be able to handle the setup parameters. I can't.
Lotsa ways to have a great picture, there's space here for all of them.
Dan
The best setup I have ever seen, bar none, is the sony G90 with Faroudja processing at CES. Man, if I had the hundred K this setup costs, I'd have it in a minute.
CRT offers a great bang for the buck these days, but you have to be able to handle the setup parameters. I can't.
Lotsa ways to have a great picture, there's space here for all of them.
Dan
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Hey Dan,
No problem...my vital signs are still stable. You should have seen the Vision 1X/Terranex thread over in the CRT forum about a month ago or so. That caused quite a stir! Of course, not everyone, myself included, has 200Gs to throw down for a display and processor (add another 20 grand for a screen).
You are naturally quite correct. You don't have to spend a King's ransome to enjoy a great picture--just ask Bob Wood. You will be amazed at what he has accomplished with an $800 AmPro. There are a myriad of ways to obtain a great view. While I love the film-like appearance and black level of CRT, I can respect the progress that lamps have made over the past few years. Indeed, I am shopping for a lamp for video sources and non-film DVD sources. Even though (I think) I got in on the LT-150 Dell deal I am considering getting an LT-155 as well. I can then compare the two side by side and keep the one I like the best and return or sell the other.
Cheers,
--Jerome
| Originally posted by DanHouck: Keep breathing, Jerome! The best setup I have ever seen, bar none, is the sony G90 with Faroudja processing at CES. Man, if I had the hundred K this setup costs, I'd have it in a minute. CRT offers a great bang for the buck these days, but you have to be able to handle the setup parameters. I can't. Lotsa ways to have a great picture, there's space here for all of them. Dan |
No problem...my vital signs are still stable. You should have seen the Vision 1X/Terranex thread over in the CRT forum about a month ago or so. That caused quite a stir! Of course, not everyone, myself included, has 200Gs to throw down for a display and processor (add another 20 grand for a screen).
You are naturally quite correct. You don't have to spend a King's ransome to enjoy a great picture--just ask Bob Wood. You will be amazed at what he has accomplished with an $800 AmPro. There are a myriad of ways to obtain a great view. While I love the film-like appearance and black level of CRT, I can respect the progress that lamps have made over the past few years. Indeed, I am shopping for a lamp for video sources and non-film DVD sources. Even though (I think) I got in on the LT-150 Dell deal I am considering getting an LT-155 as well. I can then compare the two side by side and keep the one I like the best and return or sell the other.
Cheers,
--Jerome
I agree on the whole value thing. Projector manufacturers do make cheaper projectors, but I don't think any enthusiasts would be satisfied.
I had been using a Sony CPX-1 ("Party Vision") since 5 years ago. It's a single LCD 640x480, with a 25w halogen lamp. It costed me $600, with replacement bulbs costing $25. Unfortunately, it is loud, the image is dark, has no adjustments to speak of, and the screen door problem is REALLY bad. The surface area of screen door part is greater than the image itself. Several other manufacturers make similar products.
I was happy with it for a while. But after seeing the $2000 level projectors, I can't stand it any more and sold it.
So the perceived value is more important than just getting them below $2K, I think.
I had been using a Sony CPX-1 ("Party Vision") since 5 years ago. It's a single LCD 640x480, with a 25w halogen lamp. It costed me $600, with replacement bulbs costing $25. Unfortunately, it is loud, the image is dark, has no adjustments to speak of, and the screen door problem is REALLY bad. The surface area of screen door part is greater than the image itself. Several other manufacturers make similar products.
I was happy with it for a while. But after seeing the $2000 level projectors, I can't stand it any more and sold it.
So the perceived value is more important than just getting them below $2K, I think.
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I think he was referring to manufacturers and dealers, rather than owners. There are a few CRT owners who love to come to this group and take "potshots" at "lamp" owners, as you say.
As a former owner of 3 CRT projectors, I'm very happy with my DLP, and I would not consider going back...
As far as the scaler issue, I think he means that the internal scaler of all bulb based projectors cannot hold a candle to the internal scaling of just about any CRT. When the internal scalers of portable projectors equal that of HTPC's, then I think the portable projector will come of age and become the dominant home theater projector of choice.
Robert
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Robert Clark
See our home theater (with very poor quality pics!)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078
| Originally posted by jsaliga: KD Just in case you were not aware, a lot of us "high and mighty" CRT guys hang out here in addition to the CRT forum. --Jerome |
As a former owner of 3 CRT projectors, I'm very happy with my DLP, and I would not consider going back...
As far as the scaler issue, I think he means that the internal scaler of all bulb based projectors cannot hold a candle to the internal scaling of just about any CRT. When the internal scalers of portable projectors equal that of HTPC's, then I think the portable projector will come of age and become the dominant home theater projector of choice.
Robert
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Robert Clark
See our home theater (with very poor quality pics!)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078
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Very good point. I personally don't think the $2K mark is all that important when compared to what a decent RPTV costs nowadays, which have a magic number of about $3,500. For that kind of money you can get a very good lamp projector brand new or a used low-hour CRT.
--Jerome
| Originally posted by bentsai: I agree on the whole value thing...So the perceived value is more important than just getting them below $2K, I think. |
--Jerome
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Robert,
There are number of CRT dealers and techs who pervade the forum. Whether the comments were directed at them or others is not important. His words were poorly chosen and I took exception.
--Jerome
| Originally posted by Robert Clark: I think he was referring to manufacturers and dealers, rather than owners. There are a few CRT owners who love to come to this group and take "potshots" at "lamp" owners, as you say |
There are number of CRT dealers and techs who pervade the forum. Whether the comments were directed at them or others is not important. His words were poorly chosen and I took exception.
--Jerome
A lot of the folks here want something really exceptional (i.e. big, different, new, rare, advanced, etc.) for a really affordable price. Most of us just aren't satisfied with what everyone else has or what can be gotten easily and in the ordinary way. But a lot of us don't want to spend much. Sure we want impact, but it has to be a bargain for most of us. Is that the same market as the average guy on the street? You've got to admit, this FP stuff is a lot of work, which puts people off. However, from my experience with guests, FP is like a highly comunicable disease, and when something that looks like TV (2500 lumens and high contrast) hits the cheap zone ($2500 - $3000 for screen, projector and DVD player) we might well see an explosion.
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Joe
Boxlight 38t
Panasonic RP91
RCA DTC-100
Da-Lite 100" 4:3 1.3gain
Studio Experience SE616's
and some other stuff.
[This message has been edited by JHouse (edited 07-29-2001).]
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Joe
Boxlight 38t
Panasonic RP91
RCA DTC-100
Da-Lite 100" 4:3 1.3gain
Studio Experience SE616's
and some other stuff.
[This message has been edited by JHouse (edited 07-29-2001).]
Dan my experience has been that most people will say nice things to you and enyoy the experience when viewing with less than 2500 Lumens and high contrast. They will wait for the price to drop and the "quality" to increase (til it looks like TV). But when they see this new stuff that looks like TV (which is what they expect therefore demand), it becomes "I gotta have it...how much is that?...can you tell me where to get it? If I say $7,500 without the sound system, they usually wait. If I could say $2899, they would make that bedroom furniture wait. But that is a huge decrease in price. $12,000 projectors would have to sell for $2000 instead of $6000 and good progressive DVD's and screens would each have to be at $400. We are close, but not quite there. I say one to two years before the explosion.
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Joe
Boxlight 38t
Panasonic RP91
RCA DTC-100
Da-Lite 100" 4:3 1.3gain
Studio Experience SE616's
and some other stuff.
------------------
Joe
Boxlight 38t
Panasonic RP91
RCA DTC-100
Da-Lite 100" 4:3 1.3gain
Studio Experience SE616's
and some other stuff.
I wonder if it's really the price that makes or breaks these things. To me, a bigger market limiter for FPTV is the need to have a light-controlled room. The average family home just doesn't have space for a dedicated theater. Most TV watching is done in a family room or living room where lots of other activities are going on. And those that do have a separate den for watching TV often don't have the space for a decent-sized FPTV screen. Typical dens might only be 10 X 12 or so, with a distance of only 7 or 8 feet from the TV to the viewing area.
Still, if you get the price down and market these things properly, they should find a much wider audience. They'll just never be replacing direct-view TV.
Now plasma or other direct-view technologies have a real chance. If a decent-sized (say 60" or bigger) plasma display ever drops to within the 2K range, I think you might see a mass migration to them away from RPTV's. They just take up so much less space and are much easier to transport.
Still, if you get the price down and market these things properly, they should find a much wider audience. They'll just never be replacing direct-view TV.
Now plasma or other direct-view technologies have a real chance. If a decent-sized (say 60" or bigger) plasma display ever drops to within the 2K range, I think you might see a mass migration to them away from RPTV's. They just take up so much less space and are much easier to transport.
Its really not the price for me as much as the potential depreciation.
In a historical perspective projectors are selling for about 2/3 of the price that they were one year ago. I can easily pay $600-$1000/yr for subscription costs. I really don't like to spend much more than $1000/year on equipment depreciation.
The LT150 at $1500 is a bargain in terms of depreciation in the first two years of ownership. In 3 years it will probably be a dinosaur.
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Ken Elliott
[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 07-29-2001).]
In a historical perspective projectors are selling for about 2/3 of the price that they were one year ago. I can easily pay $600-$1000/yr for subscription costs. I really don't like to spend much more than $1000/year on equipment depreciation.
The LT150 at $1500 is a bargain in terms of depreciation in the first two years of ownership. In 3 years it will probably be a dinosaur.
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Ken Elliott
[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 07-29-2001).]
Jerome,
Just your attitude makes my point perfectly...
To add another point is just because I do not have the tons of posts doesn't indicate knowledge....Believe me I have my share of deflection board swaps in crt (ceiling monsters).
How about you???
PS-Anyone can hang around here and NOT post!!
The scaler point was as soon at CEDIA many scalerers that will have all aspects ratios and input selection is going to be available and once R & D cost is gone, combined with a DLP will smoke the inflated cost of most "high-end" crt prices by over half.
KD
Just your attitude makes my point perfectly...
To add another point is just because I do not have the tons of posts doesn't indicate knowledge....Believe me I have my share of deflection board swaps in crt (ceiling monsters).
How about you???
PS-Anyone can hang around here and NOT post!!
The scaler point was as soon at CEDIA many scalerers that will have all aspects ratios and input selection is going to be available and once R & D cost is gone, combined with a DLP will smoke the inflated cost of most "high-end" crt prices by over half.
KD
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Please excuse my ignorance, but to which attitude and what point are you refering--because I cannot see one. My point, in case it was not clear to you, is that it is quite possible for people to have a difference of opinion and still respect each other's choices and not denegrate them. I am truely sorry for you if you don't see it that way.
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Please go back and read my earlier post. My remark made no mention of your relative skill or experience--I have no knowledge of that. And you are quite right, you or anyone else is welcome to browse the forums without ever posting if that is your wish. But when you do decide to post please be aware that it has a wider audience then you may think. I still believe and stand by my assertion that it is not necessary for you to insult someone else just to make a point.
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I still don't get this one. Let's take a hypothetical display (non-LCD, D-ILA, DLP, or CRT--this should be safe without touching off a war) invented by aliens that turns out to be the most hiddeous display ever designed. How is a scaler going to make it any better? I could be wrong, it has happened many times before, but to my knowledge the best scaler on the planet will not improve upon a given display's inherent properties and capabilities. You have my interest here, to what scalers are you referring?
Lastly, I happen to have a DLP on the way and will probably get an LCD as well so I can compare the two and keep the one I like the best. Whichever one it turns out to be it will supplement, not replace, my CRT. I come to this forum because I don't know a lot about lamp technology. Sure, I demoed a couple in showrooms but that is only a couple out many available models.
My preference remains CRT for film sources. But that is only my preference and it is not an absolute. I am not qualified to judge what is best for someone else. The reverse is also true.
--Jerome
| Originally posted by AV-NUT: Jerome, Just your attitude makes my point perfectly... |
Please excuse my ignorance, but to which attitude and what point are you refering--because I cannot see one. My point, in case it was not clear to you, is that it is quite possible for people to have a difference of opinion and still respect each other's choices and not denegrate them. I am truely sorry for you if you don't see it that way.
Quote:
| To add another point is just because I do not have the tons of posts doesn't indicate knowledge....Believe me I have my share of deflection board swaps in crt (ceiling monsters). How about you??? PS-Anyone can hang around here and NOT post!! |
Please go back and read my earlier post. My remark made no mention of your relative skill or experience--I have no knowledge of that. And you are quite right, you or anyone else is welcome to browse the forums without ever posting if that is your wish. But when you do decide to post please be aware that it has a wider audience then you may think. I still believe and stand by my assertion that it is not necessary for you to insult someone else just to make a point.
Quote:
| The scaler point was as soon at CEDIA many scalerers that will have all aspects ratios and input selection is going to be available and once R & D cost is gone, combined with a DLP will smoke the inflated cost of most "high-end" crt prices by over half. |
Lastly, I happen to have a DLP on the way and will probably get an LCD as well so I can compare the two and keep the one I like the best. Whichever one it turns out to be it will supplement, not replace, my CRT. I come to this forum because I don't know a lot about lamp technology. Sure, I demoed a couple in showrooms but that is only a couple out many available models.
My preference remains CRT for film sources. But that is only my preference and it is not an absolute. I am not qualified to judge what is best for someone else. The reverse is also true.
--Jerome
Flame war! Time to crack open a coke and pop a bowl of popcorn.
Good thing this ain't the Chevy vs Ford or Domestic vs Import thread.
Come on guys... projectors are like women. Some are higher maintenance than others, some are brighter than others, and some are heavier than others. But we still all love women, don't we? (I, for one, wouldn't take anything for my redhead.)
Sam
Good thing this ain't the Chevy vs Ford or Domestic vs Import thread.
Come on guys... projectors are like women. Some are higher maintenance than others, some are brighter than others, and some are heavier than others. But we still all love women, don't we? (I, for one, wouldn't take anything for my redhead.)
Sam
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