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To start, I'll list some of my equipment. I have a Denon AVR-3803 7.1 receiver, a Denon DVD-1940CI universal DVD-Audio/SACD DVD player, a Pansonic DMP-BD85 Blu-Ray Player, HK CDR CD Recorder, JVC Dual Cassette Deck, Sony High End MM Turntable, Magnavox ZV427MG9A DVD Recorder/VCR (both output through component/HDMI), and Comcast HD DVR.


I'm pretty strict on performance so I haven't upgraded to flat panel TV yet because I absolutely hate the performance of LCD picture technology and aweful resolution conversion circuits. Plasma is rarer and what's out there is expensive. BUT LCD is getting better and Plasma prices are coming down so I can see either in a year or 2, but for now I won't be using HDMI.


My AVR-3803 is still one of the best receivers out there IMO. It has 5 optical digital inputs, 2 coaxial digital inputs, and 1 coaxial and 1 optical digital outputs for CD Recorders. It also has 7 video inputs, 2 of which are recording loops, and 3 analog audio inputs (1 is a phono), 1 of which is a recording loop for CDR.


I record digital music to my CD Recorder often from cable, satellite, or PCM from DVD-V.


Now getting back to my gripe, almost all home theater receivers up to the AVR-4311 are handicapped by limited A/V inputs and most receivers now have dropped the 7.1 input so no high resolution analog audio from DVD-A or SACD.


The Denon's AVR-3311 also only weighs 27 lbs!!! My AVR-3803 weighs 36.5 lbs!! Also the AVR-3803's rated dynamic power output is significantly higher than the AVR-3311 although it's less meaningful rms output is lower. My AVR-3803 is rated at 240 dynamic watts/channel into 2 ohms where the AVR-3311 isn't even rated for 2 ohm loads. Most likely because it can't drive them with any substanial power.


It only has 5 video inputs, of which only 2 are S-Video. There also isn't an S-Video monitor output so to get these signals to the TV, they must be converted to component or HDMI, which results in coloring or degradation. There is only 2 audio inputs, CD and Phone, and no CDR recording loop. For that matter, the video side only has one recording loop instead of the standard 2, for just a DVR. Now some people have a standalone Tivo and DVD Recorders.


Getting back to the receiver, it only has 2 component inputs which is plain stupid. I'd actually have to buy a separate component video switcher to use my gear. On top of this, they don't even offer HDMI to Component conversion which would make this a mute point!!! This would result in little to no degradation since HDMI already uses the Y, Cb, Cr, component signals.


I just don't know what Denon and some other makers are thinking. They make a receiver that's incompatible with so many Home Theater and Audio component. Pioneers standard line and Elite line are much better for connectivity while they still lack some. The way I see it, I won't be going to Denon for my next receiver, and Yamaha is even worse with fewer connections on their receivers.


Not everyone can use or wants to be forced to use HDMI. Even so at $50 - $100 for a good cable that's compatible with the latest TV refresh rates and resolutions, it would be a small fortune to replace all of the component cables with HDMI for a future set.


I guess I'll just continuenig using my AVR-3803 and the DMP-BD85 7.1 analog outputs to it for lossless sound tracks.


I guess they essentially bowed down to the movie and music studios. If the movie and music studio couldn't outlaw recording all together, they have no worry if the current equipment doesn't offer connections for it. Tivos and DVD Recorders have S-Video inputs for the best quality but none of the receivers offer S-Video anymore. Composite is just not that great, especially for recordings. No current or even previous recorders, used component video inputs, but a few older models from Phillips.


Even when I get a HDMI set, I don't plan on replacing all the cables to HDMI. The only component that benefits the most is the Blu-Ray.
 

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My Yamaha receiver offers full support for legacy inputs. While the current Aventage line may have reduced legacy inputs, there should still be models with multi-channel inputs and analog to HDMI conversion. Look at the RX-A1000.
 

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Most people want to use HDMI, and look at the buzzwords for features. In addition to lower weight across teh board, your 3803 is probably made in Japan, while nearly all the Denon/Marantz stuff except the top-of-the-line is now made in China. I don't care what people say, if Product A is made in a low-cost market known of cheap labor and sometimes good but sometimes crappy stuff, and Product B is made in a first-world country known for high quality and pricing is similar. I'd go for Product B.


I think some of your reasoning is flawed, expensive HDMI cables don't get you anything compared to high-quality lower priced ones so long as you're getting 100% of the signal. There's also less cable to run. I know have a single cable from my BD Player to my receiver, previously I had one digital audio (or several analog) along with the three component. I'd much rather have the single digital cable. It's less likely to have issues with distortion, and so long as the data arrives intact, not much else matters.


I think the bigger issue, is that most manufacturers are adding features and consumers use that to compare various brands. The average consumer probably doesn't look at weight or power consumption. If they've cheaped out on the power supply/amp section, then really what good at all is the receiver.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Up2
The Denon's AVR-3311 also only weighs 27 lbs!!! My AVR-3803 weighs 36.5 lbs!! Also the AVR-3803's rated dynamic power output is significantly higher than the AVR-3311 although it's less meaningful rms output is lower. My AVR-3803 is rated at 240 dynamic watts/channel into 2 ohms where the AVR-3311 isn't even rated for 2 ohm loads. Most likely because it can't drive them with any substanial power.


Not everyone can use or wants to be forced to use HDMI. Even so at $50 - $100 for a good cable that's compatible with the latest TV refresh rates and resolutions, it would be a small fortune to replace all of the component cables with HDMI for a future set.


Although your general point is taken, you're comparing the wrong AVRs as the 380X line was succeeded by the 431X line and not the 331X line which succeeded the 280X line.


Hi speed (hi quality) HDMI cables cost
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Up2 /forum/post/19634129


To start, I'll list some of my equipment. I have a Denon AVR-3803 7.1 receiver, a Denon DVD-1940CI universal DVD-Audio/SACD DVD player, a Pansonic DMP-BD85 Blu-Ray Player, HK CDR CD Recorder, JVC Dual Cassette Deck, Sony High End MM Turntable, Magnavox ZV427MG9A DVD Recorder/VCR (both output through component/HDMI), and Comcast HD DVR.


I'm pretty strict on performance so I haven't upgraded to flat panel TV yet because I absolutely hate the performance of LCD picture technology and aweful resolution conversion circuits. Plasma is rarer and what's out there is expensive. BUT LCD is getting better and Plasma prices are coming down so I can see either in a year or 2, but for now I won't be using HDMI.


My AVR-3803 is still one of the best receivers out there IMO. It has 5 optical digital inputs, 2 coaxial digital inputs, and 1 coaxial and 1 optical digital outputs for CD Recorders. It also has 7 video inputs, 2 of which are recording loops, and 3 analog audio inputs (1 is a phono), 1 of which is a recording loop for CDR.


I record digital music to my CD Recorder often from cable, satellite, or PCM from DVD-V.


Now getting back to my gripe, almost all home theater receivers up to the AVR-4311 are handicapped by limited A/V inputs and most receivers now have dropped the 7.1 input so no high resolution analog audio from DVD-A or SACD.


The Denon's AVR-3311 also only weighs 27 lbs!!! My AVR-3803 weighs 36.5 lbs!! Also the AVR-3803's rated dynamic power output is significantly higher than the AVR-3311 although it's less meaningful rms output is lower. My AVR-3803 is rated at 240 dynamic watts/channel into 2 ohms where the AVR-3311 isn't even rated for 2 ohm loads. Most likely because it can't drive them with any substanial power.


It only has 5 video inputs, of which only 2 are S-Video. There also isn't an S-Video monitor output so to get these signals to the TV, they must be converted to component or HDMI, which results in coloring or degradation. There is only 2 audio inputs, CD and Phone, and no CDR recording loop. For that matter, the video side only has one recording loop instead of the standard 2, for just a DVR. Now some people have a standalone Tivo and DVD Recorders.


Getting back to the receiver, it only has 2 component inputs which is plain stupid. I'd actually have to buy a separate component video switcher to use my gear. On top of this, they don't even offer HDMI to Component conversion which would make this a mute point!!! This would result in little to no degradation since HDMI already uses the Y, Cb, Cr, component signals.


I just don't know what Denon and some other makers are thinking. They make a receiver that's incompatible with so many Home Theater and Audio component. Pioneers standard line and Elite line are much better for connectivity while they still lack some. The way I see it, I won't be going to Denon for my next receiver, and Yamaha is even worse with fewer connections on their receivers.


Not everyone can use or wants to be forced to use HDMI. Even so at $50 - $100 for a good cable that's compatible with the latest TV refresh rates and resolutions, it would be a small fortune to replace all of the component cables with HDMI for a future set.


I guess I'll just continuenig using my AVR-3803 and the DMP-BD85 7.1 analog outputs to it for lossless sound tracks.


I guess they essentially bowed down to the movie and music studios. If the movie and music studio couldn't outlaw recording all together, they have no worry if the current equipment doesn't offer connections for it. Tivos and DVD Recorders have S-Video inputs for the best quality but none of the receivers offer S-Video anymore. Composite is just not that great, especially for recordings. No current or even previous recorders, used component video inputs, but a few older models from Phillips.


Even when I get a HDMI set, I don't plan on replacing all the cables to HDMI. The only component that benefits the most is the Blu-Ray.

Hi Mike up2- I bought mine used about a year ago, I've always loved the beefy, heavy, high current Denons to I couldn't pass it up as a second for my family room. I was a little surprised that the power output seems pretty low, I had a realllllly old Onkyo with 35 watts that would really take this Denon hands down and a 55 watt Yamaha same story. I'm pretty convinced there is something amiss with the Denon. I was hoping for the opinion of a true Denon fan/lover/user. Doesn't yours have tons of headroom and power, what are they 110 watts or something? Would you agree?



Thanks, Joe
 

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Mike - You are generalizing AVR's. Denon isn't the only AVR out there. There's numerous companies out there that make much better AVR's than Denon. If you don't like Denon's new components (I don't blame you at all) there are other companies, such as Marantz, Rotel, Bryston, Anthem. I'm not a fan of Denon's newer stuff either. They focus too much of their attention on gizmo's and do-dad's rather than the quality of the unit.
 

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I'm also looking to upgrade my 3803 to something new and still keep legacy inputs. I'll move the 3803 to another room.


The only ones that meet the bill for that flexibility so far are the Yamaha Aventage models RX-A1000 and up. The lower Aventage (810, etc) don't cut it.


I did an Excel spreadsheet that compares the output and inputs on my system to potential new receivers from Anthem, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha. Yamaha best fits the bill. Now, if receivers could output HDMI audio or digital (optical/coaxial) inputs to zones 2 and 3 that would make life a lot easier.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Up2 /forum/post/19634129


To start, I'll list some of my equipment. I have a Denon AVR-3803 7.1 receiver, a Denon DVD-1940CI universal DVD-Audio/SACD DVD player, a Pansonic DMP-BD85 Blu-Ray Player, HK CDR CD Recorder, JVC Dual Cassette Deck, Sony High End MM Turntable, Magnavox ZV427MG9A DVD Recorder/VCR (both output through component/HDMI), and Comcast HD DVR.


I'm pretty strict on performance so I haven't upgraded to flat panel TV yet because I absolutely hate the performance of LCD picture technology and aweful resolution conversion circuits. Plasma is rarer and what's out there is expensive. BUT LCD is getting better and Plasma prices are coming down so I can see either in a year or 2, but for now I won't be using HDMI.
debateable...



My AVR-3803 is still one of the best receivers out there IMO. It has 5 optical digital inputs, 2 coaxial digital inputs, and 1 coaxial and 1 optical digital outputs for CD Recorders. It also has 7 video inputs, 2 of which are recording loops, and 3 analog audio inputs (1 is a phono), 1 of which is a recording loop for CDR.


I record digital music to my CD Recorder often from cable, satellite, or PCM from DVD-V.


Now getting back to my gripe, almost all home theater receivers up to the AVR-4311 are handicapped by limited A/V inputs and most receivers now have dropped the 7.1 input so no high resolution analog audio from DVD-A or SACD.
wrong. it is now available via hdmi. and even better, it can now have dsp applied to it without an additional analog to digital conversion



The Denon's AVR-3311 also only weighs 27 lbs!!! My AVR-3803 weighs 36.5 lbs!! Also the AVR-3803's rated dynamic power output is significantly higher than the AVR-3311 although it's less meaningful rms output is lower. My AVR-3803 is rated at 240 dynamic watts/channel into 2 ohms where the AVR-3311 isn't even rated for 2 ohm loads. Most likely because it can't drive them with any substanial power.

the world isn't exactly cluttered with 2 ohm nominal speakers


It only has 5 video inputs, of which only 2 are S-Video. There also isn't an S-Video monitor output so to get these signals to the TV, they must be converted to component or HDMI, which results in coloring or degradation. There is only 2 audio inputs, CD and Phone, and no CDR recording loop. For that matter, the video side only has one recording loop instead of the standard 2, for just a DVR. Now some people have a standalone Tivo and DVD Recorders.

wtong. any modern adc video chip will not result in coloring or degradation. wrong, there are more than 2 analog audio inputs.



Getting back to the receiver, it only has 2 component inputs which is plain stupid. I'd actually have to buy a separate component video switcher to use my gear. On top of this, they don't even offer HDMI to Component conversion which would make this a mute point!!! This would result in little to no degradation since HDMI already uses the Y, Cb, Cr, component signals.

hdmi to component conversion isn't allowed. don't blame the cem. it's "moot", fwiw.



I just don't know what Denon and some other makers are thinking. They make a receiver that's incompatible with so many Home Theater and Audio component. Pioneers standard line and Elite line are much better for connectivity while they still lack some. The way I see it, I won't be going to Denon for my next receiver, and Yamaha is even worse with fewer connections on their receivers.

realistically, there aren't "so many" modern components that would be incompatible with any modern avr


Not everyone can use or wants to be forced to use HDMI. Even so at $50 - $100 for a good cable that's compatible with the latest TV refresh rates and resolutions, it would be a small fortune to replace all of the component cables with HDMI for a future set.

wrong. you can purchase all the cables you will need for less than 50 dollars, total


I guess I'll just continuenig using my AVR-3803 and the DMP-BD85 7.1 analog outputs to it for lossless sound tracks.

good for you. you are cheating yourself, however.


I guess they essentially bowed down to the movie and music studios. If the movie and music studio couldn't outlaw recording all together, they have no worry if the current equipment doesn't offer connections for it. Tivos and DVD Recorders have S-Video inputs for the best quality but none of the receivers offer S-Video anymore. Composite is just not that great, especially for recordings. No current or even previous recorders, used component video inputs, but a few older models from Phillips.

s-video isn't even nearly "best quality". no they bowed down to the fact that technology has advanced. they don't sell cars with crank starters anymore either...


Even when I get a HDMI set, I don't plan on replacing all the cables to HDMI. The only component that benefits the most is the Blu-Ray.

methinks you doth protest too much... other comments in red..
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraweiss /forum/post/20951015


Now, if receivers could output HDMI audio or digital (optical/coaxial) inputs to zones 2 and 3 that would make life a lot easier.

The Aventage 2XXX/3XXX line can output HDMI PCM 2.0 to Zones 2/3 and the Denon 33XX and 43XX can output optical/coax PCM 2.0 to Zones 2/3.
 
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