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Discussion Starter #2,141
HOLY CRAP is right!!! I'd love to see a video of this.

If the BKs are causing the y-axis movement, won't adding more BKs to the outside seats make things jump even more, whether the seats are bolted together or not?
The CL BK’s are pretty even for z and y axis but yes, they will put those outer seats through even way more hell if not connected, and is part of the reason I don’t have them on those seats ATM. BUT with all 3 three seats bolted together it helps this tremendously and not nearly as hard on them as it is now even with no BK on them, but I’ve kind of got spoiled not having my MLP seat connected to the outers and can take anything the 2 CL BKs throw at it with my weight in it, plus still feels just a bit sharper and more violent than all seats together with 4 BK’s if that makes sense. Free'r moving I guess with not really any restrictions.

The outside seats are pretty light (~100lbs ) and only one armed that are made to butt up to another with an arm. They are a PITA, I wish I had all seats that were solo with two armrests each. BUT, that would put them 6” wider each and even farther out on the edge of the screen and closer to a side wall. One of the drawbacks of being in a smaller room and not a gigantic screen (120” is not gigantic compared to the 150’s and over).

I think I may try to connect the two outer seats with each other via a 2x4 in the back that bypasses the MLP middle seat to give them more stability and weight. Will see how that goes. It may really help.

Also, if I put a BB on them it’ll give them more weight (although that will shake them too). Speaking of, I’m thinking about maybe cutting a hole on the far right seat to compare, then convert if better. But kinda been waiting on what you find with your experiment with the BB …so hurry up ok hahahahaha :D
 

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Yeah, I'd say just start with the 6dB/oct LPF and rolloff comp only and keep slowly turning gain up while testing until you find the right level. There's a good chance you will need more gain that you are used to, simply because of the general lower level of the curve, but that's fine. If you end up with your amp gain as high as possible and at 12dB of gain on the mDSP and you still need more gain, then switch to one of the higher-level curves I posted.
I'd say they should be pretty good by themself if you don't have any other TR devices, but I would try without the 80Hz HS filter that I used unless you get SPL problems like I did;)
Each device brings a little different feel in different areas:) I feel like the HB is a good allrounder being the best for low end while the BB is the best for midbass and the BK's adds that aggressive feel in between:D
Are you saying you are using the below?

LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation filter

I would recommend using the default lower level version if you can, and only use the others if you can't get enough signal. I also highly recommend you increase gain on your amp to give your signal chain more headroom.

When I say increase level, I mean adjust gain.
I used Aron's settings the other night @Stoke192. I watched BEQ'd 'snatchers'. First impressions are very good. These settings seem to dig out the very low FQ my subs just can't without feeling OTT in the higher range. Like anything, time will tell but so far so good. Thanks Aron :)
 

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Are you saying you are using the below?

LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation filter

I would recommend using the default lower level version if you can, and only use the others if you can't get enough signal. I also highly recommend you increase gain on your amp to give your signal chain more headroom.

When I say increase level, I mean adjust gain.
Hi,
Thanks for the reply,

I’m just using the Roll off comp and LPF atm, I can add the filters easy enough though, The attenuation knob on the NX3kD is at 3pm currently, Is it worth turning that up and backing it off in the mDSP ?
Apologies if these seem like noob questions, pretty new to all this ;)

Thanks
 

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I used Aron's settings the other night @Stoke192. I watched BEQ'd 'snatchers'. First impressions are very good. These settings seem to dig out the very low FQ my subs just can't without feeling OTT in the higher range. Like anything, time will tell but so far so good. Thanks Aron :)
Thanks for the feedback,
I’ll have the opportunity to Set them up and test them out an Saturday morning, I’ll report back :)
 

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Hi,
Thanks for the reply,

I’m just using the Roll off comp and LPF atm, I can add the filters easy enough though, The attenuation knob on the NX3kD is at 3pm currently, Is it worth turning that up and backing it off in the mDSP ?
Apologies if these seem like noob questions, pretty new to all this ;)

Thanks
Just so you know, that 40Hz 6dB/oct LPF is intended to be combined with those other shelves in order to create the higher-level 6dB/oct curve shown in my graph. Not that there's anything wrong with running a different curve, but I just want to make sure you're getting what you're expecting. Running just the 40Hz LPF would typically limit your ability to get the low-end feel most of us love without too much HF content above.

Here's my recommendation:
Change the 40Hz 6dB/oct LPF to 10Hz
Keep the rolloff comp in place
Increase your amp gain knobs to max or 1 notch below max if there is noise at max, or the highest you can go without noise.
Play some great bass scenes with BEQ while adjusting gain in the mDSP. 5dB gain might be a good starting point and then let the feel at your normal listening level guide you up or down.

Once you get gain dialed in, run a bunch of different great bass scenes and see if you're desiring a little more low end or anything else. Then you can experiment with different additional filters to season to taste.
 

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Discussion Starter #2,147
Posted this over on the Hideaway Theater thread...


Monster BOSS!

Edit: Added a few pics from the front.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-d...991522-hideaway-theater-194.html#post59389732
I posted this over in the BOSS forum but might as well post it here too I guess:

Awesome job with the MONTER tubes!!!!! Although not as tall and fat as these, this could be why I really love the feel of the BELL normal thinner walled tubes from Walmart (compared to the Goodyear tubes) with about 3.5 - 4lbs of air in them compared to there Goodyear. The BELL 16" is WAY bigger and fatter with less air than the 16" Goodyear and especially bigger than the 16" thick walled ones from Amazon.

Great idea on trying these!! Keeps us posted. Since I seem to love the feel of the bigger, fatter tubes, I may have to try these as well, at least on my JBL 12's under me and may give even more of that feel I love since they'll be even fatter probably than what I'm using now with less air.
 

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Also, if I put a BB on them it’ll give them more weight (although that will shake them too). Speaking of, I’m thinking about maybe cutting a hole on the far right seat to compare, then convert if better. But kinda been waiting on what you find with your experiment with the BB …so hurry up ok hahahahaha :D
OK Shelby, I got the two versions of BB are up and running last night, but I have a little ways to go before I can make a fair comparison. I don't have my mDSP HD installed yet, so the two BB woofers are getting the same signal as my main subs. In fact I had to unplug the XLA to my rear sub to have something to plug into the Inuke 3000DSP driving the BBs. I'm going to have to scrounge up some more XLA cables or go buy some more (if that's even possible these days).

Just to remind everyone what the two versions are, see the pic below of the two seatbacks just before the woofer baffles were installed. The left seatback has a hole cutout in the back that is slightly larger than the woofer bezel. Also the 1" layer of fiberfill between the leather cover and thin plywood layer has been removed. The woofer baffle was then screwed into the seatback's internal frame on all four sides of the baffle. Note, my seatbacks have a very slight curvature in the vertical direction such that the top/bottom edges of the baffle were elevated off the seatback about 1/8". I was able to close this small gap and make a good seal by tightening the baffle on all four sides to the seatback's internal frame. To check the seal I turned off all the lights in the room and placed a flashlight inside the seatback to verify no light was leaking out.

The seatback on the right avoids cutting a hole for the woofer and instead uses standoffs (1x2s in my case) to create a spacing for the woofer baffle. With this approach the woofer is still very close to the seatback, but the sound has to go though an extra layer of stuff compared to the open hole method which includes the leather cover, 1" of fiberfill padding, and the original 1/8" plywood in the seatback. In my initial trials there is also a 16" innertube between the baffle and seatback so the woofer sees a small sealed volume which allows it to generate some SPL without front/back wave cancellation.

I first tried each BB by itself without the subs playing - YUCK!!! There was hardly any bass SPL, just a lot of rumbling vibrations that felt completely unnatural. I turned my front sub back on (back sub's XLA is being used for the BB amp for now), and things were much better. Without any BB tuning yet, some of the stuff I demoed still seemed a little artificial, but got better once I got used to it. Both versions delivered an amazing amount of power and more impact than I expected from a measly $45 12" woofer. With the same amp setting for both verions, the version with the seatback hole was slightly more intense, so I turned it down slightly to try to match levels. Even then the side with the seatback hole was noticeably more articulate and detailed. My guess is having the woofer more open baffle, located a couple of inches closer to the listener, and not having to go though the extra layers in the original seatback does make a noticeable difference.

I'm going to continue experimenting with removing the standoff version's innertube, and also the hole in the seatback version by attempting to seal the seatback cavity as much as possible. I'll get some REW sweeps of each seatback in isolation as I make changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #2,149
^^^ Awesome start @darrellh44 !!!!! Fantastic subjective information so far and I look forward to more with some sweeps and stuff. Also, will be interesting to see what you think of the feel with no tube on the one with no hole cut. I’m thinking the hole will be best in all areas though, especially when sealing the bottom cavity as much as possible.

Thanks again for doing this!!! :)

If I make a hole in mine, I wish my seatbacks weren’t so darn curved. You said you had about a 1/8” gap top and bottom of driver. That’s not bad at all compared to mine. Mine is probably more like 1/2” to 1” IIRC. If I cut a hole, I may just have to have the driver a little further away like it is now and have the tube in there to seal around the driver baffle so all the pressure goes into the seat pack (plus that little bit of extra volume of the tube on the outside). That may be my best bet if I end up cutting a hole.

And yeah I agree. It does feel and seem the most realistic with everything running with SPL from all other subs.
 

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Discussion Starter #2,151 (Edited)
I ran a 15hz harmonics test for @LastButNotLeast today on my HB+CLHB as well as one on my BB with JBL (BK was muted on the BB) and might as well go ahead and post it here. I also took a sweep of each just to show what it looks like across the board. LOL ..not to impressive down on lower on the open baffle JBL on BB but is no surprise there. It comes up better the higher it gets to 20hz to 40-50hz. The HB+CLHB sweep makes up for it though. So crazy, I'm not used to seeing sweeps that read down to around 4hz or so LOL So COOL!!!!! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

I guess the harmonics are about where they should be but someone who knows more than me will have to say.

HB+CLHB: Sweep on the left and 15hz tone on the right


BB JBL: Sweep on the left and 15hz tone on the right


---------

Hopes that helps you some Michael and shows you what you wanted to see.

I wanted to fire up REW anyway for a sweep on my BK's as one of the wire nuts had come loose and was only getting part of my power from them ...not sure how long this has been going on but not good. Also, my amp gain knob somehow got set to a hair above 9:00 on the BK amp for them and should be at a hair over 10:00. When m0j0 asked me about what my levels were at the other day for the BK's, I noticed this and thought ..hmmmmmm that seems low and usually at around 10:00 and a hair over. So, got that all lined out and needed to change my settings on them a bit now too after that (will update that when I get a chance). Good God, I just thought I loved my BK LFE's canti-levered on my seat. They feel like 10x as strong now!!!! (and yes making some noise unfortunately. No wonder I wasn't hearing much from them LOL). I need to make some sort of hush box like m0j0 did or something for them, but it isn't just awful so can live with it for a while. For what they bring to the TR party though is so worth it even if I never get a hush box built. I watched that same Terminator Dark Fate street chase seen from the other day with the BK's were they are supposed to be at in the mix and I don't know that I've been terrorized in the most awesome way like this yet, even with the previous FURY viewings that I went on an on about (which I'm sure my BK's weren't up where they were supposed to be either, and who knows about the stupid wire nut). My insides truly felt worn out this time from doing the involuntary tense up thing of my core area. But holy hell, this is my FAVORITE FEEL EVER from TR that makes me do this!!!!!! :D :D :D LOL Now even the menu screen on TDF almost makes me try to squirm out of my seat with that same type of constant penetrating feel LOL :) It felt insane before with the 6db oct curve on the HB and CLHB for this, but with the BK's where they should be now, it's the craziest and most awesome thing I've ever experienced!!!! Now I need to go give FURY tank battle scene a spin again :D

I really need to get all my wires in order better now that I've got my setup like I want it. I've spliced and all that so much trying different things over the last year that some of my wires are kind of cobbled together
 

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Yes, less, which is what I wanted to see for comparison. Ideally, of course (AIUI), you don't want any harmonics, which, though ideal, may not be obtainable.
I tried a thicker platform to no avail. We both have suspended wood floors, so that's not it.
Probably just the fact that it's one speaker in the back of an old chair. I may experiment further, but not too much that I can do.
Thanks, Shelby.
Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #2,154

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Great testing, Shelby!

So we have 2 data points so far, a sealed BB with a tube showing crazy distortion, and an open baffle BB with much more reasonable distortion. Does anyone have the ability to quickly change between tube and no tube on a BB that could do a more direct comparison?
 

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@Nalleh can you please run a Viberry sweep with this curve? I'm expecting a pancake response ;) :D
Sorry for not replying to this, but have had a full work week after i got the HB up and running.

But managed a bit of testing today before my night shift :

Here is a Qvibe of the HB flat, with 10hz 6dB LPF, and with the LPF + your recommended LS.



Expecting the 9dB to drop more ;)

This might be of interest to some.
I generated a 5Hz tone with REW. This is the result:


So almost all of what I'm feeling (which is a great deal, mind you [until the amp shuts off ;)]), is harmonics.
I'd like to see more measurements, even though the subjective observations are interesting.
And keep those photos coming!
:D
Michael
Here’s mine. 6hz sine wave.

HB


MA


BK


BB



Only one having your kind of harmonics is the BK, but i think that is inherent in how it works.


So tonight i watched Gemini Man with Aaron’s suggested slopes and filters. Had to increase the LPF on the BK though, otherwise i loose ALL the visceral i love about them. And also the VNF and BB have their own filters and slopes.

I LOVED IT !! I think these settings are the golden ticket, and really brings out the low end, while keeping enough of the rest of the passband in the loop :) This movie had some INSANE transients and some incredible wobbles, that even made the right (unoccupied) seat airborne!!! And slamming down on the sled again, making a clapping sound, LOL. Holy crap it scared the bejesus out of me, haha. Kind of the same problem as @SBuger, with no people in the seat, the HB is simply to much!! How the hell did we get there?? My seats are screwed to the MDF board under it, but that MDF just lays on top the the MA‘s in the rear, and it was here it got airborne, LOL.

But i LOVED the soundtrack of this movie, great Atmos and like i said a insane LFE track with BEQ, and yes Aaron i believe you are right about the hard transients with this 6dB slope. Awsome ;)

And this is where i may get some flack, but i ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE 60fps visuals!!! HOLY TESTICLE TUESDAY, this is probably the best picture i have seen!! And the HFR made it sooooo smooth and cool :) I HATE grain and i HATE stutter, so this was such a relief from all that, YIKES, did i love it !!

I also updated to the latest FW on the Vertex2, and the latest improvements there with the LLDV settings made it even better. NEVER seen such a off the charts great picture from my RS600 PJ ;)
 

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^^^ Awesome post, Nalleh!

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that everything I've watched since switching to the 6dB/oct curves has been flat out amazing :)

Ready Player One race scene
Charlie's Angels bass scenes and transients
Some scenes from Fury
The Rise of Skywalker
1917 (just finished watching)

Everything brings the WOW factor, while just being perfectly balanced between low and high, razor sharp and HARD transients, but with such a realistic feel! I am so so blown away by how great it is!!! :D :D :D
 

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TR Curves

I'll use this post to maintain a list of TR curves and information on how to implement them...

These curves do not include the amp response, so it is generally assumed that the user will add an appropriate amp rolloff compensation filter, or accept that their final response will have additional low-end rolloff that is not shown here.

Recommended amp rolloff compensation filters

iNuke/NX DSP models: LS 10Hz 4.4dB Q0.5 (makes the response +/- 0.4dB down to 4Hz!)
iNuke/NX non-DSP models: LS 10Hz 2.3dB Q0.5 (makes the response +/- 0.5dB down to 4Hz!)
BKA: LS 10Hz 10.1dB Q0.7 (makes the response +/- 2dB all the way down to 5Hz)
Crown 2502: LS 10Hz 3.7dB Q0.5
Sanway FP10000Q: Use iNuke/NX above
Crowson D-501: none - Also, it may be best not to add any of the optional LS below to this amp. If you do, do some careful testing to make sure you don't start clipping the amp on the most challenging effects.

Signal chain optimization and curve testing/implementation

In almost all cases it is beneficial to have amp gain knobs at or near maximum in order to maximize voltage headroom in previous stages, including a mDSP and/or AVR. Also, the curves below likely have a lower overall gain than most are used to because they use LPF to create most of the shape, so this will also go a long way toward bringing them up to a "normal" level. It is not unusual at all to end up with amp knobs maxed out and additional gain in the mDSP or elsewhere with these curves. Along with being one notch below max on the amp, I have mDSP output gain at +5.5dB. This does NOT mean you are pushing the amp or mDSP any harder, we're just moving the gain to later on in the chain.

Note: AVR sub trims are also as usual recommended to be very low to prevent clipping the AVR sub out and mDSP input, while also maintaining more headroom in the downstream devices in the signal chain. Increasing amp gain as described in this section helps support lower sub trims while maintaining the desired output level.

The consensus has been that the 6dB/oct slope is pretty much perfect with Crowson MAs. With BOSS/HB, there is a lot more variance in platforms and personal preference, so we see a lot more variety in preferred curves. For someone with a BOSS/HB first starting out and wanting to try out a curve, I'd probably recommend starting with a 6dB/oct or 12dB/oct slope, but strongly encourage experimentation to hone in on what is best for a particular person and setup. Time spent experimenting with this will make an enormous difference and pay off as the best experience you can get on your particular setup! Take the time to do it!

Recommended steps:
1. Maximize amp gain knobs as much as possible. This will often be max. In my case it is one notch below max due to low-level noise that I can feel at max.
2. Enter the desired curve. I would normally recommend starting out with just a 10Hz BW LPF (of the chosen slope) and amp rolloff compensation.
3. Adjust gain (on the output in the mDSP or where appropriate) while testing a known high-output bass scene at normal listening volume. I typically use the Ready Player One race scene and increase gain until I'm getting the desired sharpness to the bass hits from the higher frequencies, knowing that the low end can be shelved up from there. At this point you're really just trying to hone in on the feel of the >10Hz stuff. You want to incorporate as much of that higher content as possible without it becoming harsh. If harshness is stopping you from increasing the level as much as your would otherwise, try a steeper slope. If you are increasing level more and more and still not getting as much of the higher detailed stuff as you'd like, try a shallower slope. Try them all, and keep in mind that with each change in slope you should adjust level by feel as well as the optimal level will also vary by slope.
4. (Optional) If more low end slow wobble is desired, add one of the LS shown in the graph or a different LS you want to try and repeat the test.

The most basic curves consist of a 10Hz BW LPF of some slope and amp rolloff comp only, but infinite combinations of curves can be created by adding LS filters, changing the LPF frequency, etc. Below are some more advanced curve combinations that I created with a specific goal to keep a constant slope but extend it into the single-digits.

Extended 6dB/oct, 9dB/oct, 12dB/oct, 18dB/oct, 24dB/oct Curves
6dB/oct curve (blue): LPF 10Hz 6dB/oct, LS 10Hz 8.0dB Q0.7
9dB/oct curve (magenta): LPF 10Hz 6dB/oct, LS 10Hz 8.0dB Q0.7, HS 20Hz -5.4dB Q0.7, HS 54Hz -4.6dB Q0.7
12dB/oct curve (yellow): LPF 11Hz 12dB/oct, LS 10Hz 9.1dB Q0.9
18dB/oct curve (green): LPF 10Hz 18dB/oct, LS 10Hz 9.0dB Q0.9
24dB/oct curve (purple): LPF 10Hz 24dB/oct, LS 10Hz 9.0dB Q1.0, PEQ 15Hz 1.0dB Q1.0


Tweaked 6dB/oct Curves
Obviously there are a lot of slight tweaks to these curves that can be created in between by changing the LS slightly, but I thought it would be helpful to see a lot of the different ones that I/we have messed with to see where they all fall relative to each other.

The labels show the LS for each combined with the LPF 10Hz BW 6dB/oct

LPF only (red)
LS 10Hz 2.3dB Q0.5 (green)
LS 10Hz 8.0dB Q0.7 (extended to 5Hz curve - teal)
LS 11Hz 6.0dB Q0.8 (extended to 8Hz curve - orange)
LS 15Hz 3.6dB Q0.7 (extended to 10Hz curve - gold)
LS 10Hz 1.1dB Q0.5 (halfway between LPF only and "green" - blue)


Higher-Gain Basic 6dB/oct Curves
These should really only be used if you've already followed the signal chain optimization steps above, and for some reason, you still aren't getting enough output from the amp.

~5.5dB higher in level:
LPF 20Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 16Hz 4.2dB Q0.7
rolloff compensation

~11dB higher in level:
LPF 40Hz BW 6dB/oct
LS 20Hz 9.6dB Q0.6
LS 10Hz 1.0dB Q0.6
rolloff compensation


Curves for those who only have iNuke/NX DSP capabilities (no miniDSP)...
The below graphs also already include and account for amp rolloff :)

LPF BW 6dB slope 20Hz
HS6 20Hz -12dB

Estimated with the thin grey line below





Alternate extended iNuke/NX version:

LPF BW 6dB slope 20Hz
HS12 20Hz -10dB

Estimated with the thin green line below



Thanks to @Shreds for the original amp testing images.
 

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Great testing, Shelby!

So we have 2 data points so far, a sealed BB with a tube showing crazy distortion, and an open baffle BB with much more reasonable distortion. Does anyone have the ability to quickly change between tube and no tube on a BB that could do a more direct comparison?
I'll be running REW sweeps on different BB configurations tonight and will include 15 Hz harmonic distortion runs in the mix.
 

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Please excuse my ignorance, But how do you bookmark post on this forum ?, So much great info.....trying to remember where it all is in a fast moving thread is a challenge ;)
The UK AVForums has a simple "bookmark post" button :)

Thanks
 
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