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Killer thread fellas!

For a carpeted concrete floor theater does anyone know if TR can be improved by placing seating on a one or two inch tall wood platform? I'm thinking of trying this for my first row seating but not sure if this low height does anything. My second row at 16" high definitely makes a difference.

Edit: I'm referring to setup with subwoofer only, no transducers.
 

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Killer thread fellas!

For a carpeted concrete floor theater does anyone know if TR can be improved by placing seating on a one or two inch tall wood platform? I'm thinking of trying this for my first row seating but not sure if this low height does anything. My second row at 16" high definitely makes a difference.

Edit: I'm referring to setup with subwoofer only, no transducers.
Greg....yes, if you build the 2" height front row mini-riser very rigid and support it with rubber underneath, you will definitely increase your TR in the front row similar to what you're feeling in the back row.

If you want to increase your TR exponentially, check out BOSS technology in my signature link below. It has the prescribed rubber to use for a 1.5" high front row mini-riser and how to add drivers to that platform for the ultimate in natural feeling and commanding TR.

You can even add subs to your back row riser and add the rubber below it to retrofit it with BOSS technology.

Post 29 in my thread has the guidelines for both a 1.5" mini-riser and a full size riser.

I'm using both types in our theater. Other AVS members are doing the same....read the first post in the BOSS thread for a few testimonials from other AVS members who have tried a BOSS or two in their setups.
 

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Can you guys provide me some opinions about if the crowson might be a more interesting upgrade vs 2nd sub in my set? I use the PB 4000 right now and by measuring I can see it is still powerful below 20hz at MLP, during movies the tactile feeling overall is great anyway. The problem is the best overall position I can find for that makes a pretty strong dip around 60hz, I am trying to identify if a second sub could solve that but maybe just wastes money or cant even notice a big change from fixing it anyway. So if I can learn to ignore the dip I could buy the crowson instead, but is it very useful? Would I xover on 20hz? Is there any practical job to do at ultra low frequency? Will any movies play that low anyway?

For now I already paired a small buttkicker with headphones for personal enjoyment and setting output on the buttkicker from miniDSP it can mix very well in that situation, really smooth and you won't even expect the buttkicker to be there. But seems like buttkicker+headphones and crowson+pb4000 is really different situations, so what do you guys think about that?
For the bold above, yes, have you checked out BOSS technology yet?

It's very practical and will only cost about $50-60 dollars per seat plus 80 watts of power. You will feel natural ULF TR from 3Hz to 40Hz and even higher depending where you set your LPF.

The best thing about BOSS, if you also want to fill in that 60Hz hole with a second sub, the full size BOSS riser can be built as a semi-sealed sub and you will get some SPL from it in addition to the 3Hz to 40HZ TR.

For your second question in bold, absolutely....single digit ULF TR is where the magic is for movies. Some movies are "bass filtered", meaning the single digit ULF TR is filtered out during blu-ray authoring but there's a way to restore that single digit ULF TR for home viewing, called Bass EQ (BEQ).

Info on BOSS technology is in my signature below.

Info on restoring ULF TR for movies is located in the BEQ thread, hyperlinked here.
 

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For the bold above, yes, have you checked out BOSS technology yet?

It's very practical and will only cost about $50-60 dollars per seat plus 80 watts of power. You will feel natural ULF TR from 3Hz to 40Hz and even higher depending where you set your LPF.

The best thing about BOSS, if you also want to fill in that 60Hz hole with a second sub, the full size BOSS riser can be built as a semi-sealed sub and you will get some SPL from it in addition to the 3Hz to 40HZ TR.

For your second question in bold, absolutely....single digit ULF TR is where the magic is for movies. Some movies are "bass filtered", meaning the single digit ULF TR is filtered out during blu-ray authoring but there's a way to restore that single digit ULF TR for home viewing, called Bass EQ (BEQ).

Info on BOSS technology is in my signature below.

Info on restoring ULF TR for movies is located in the BEQ thread, hyperlinked here.
Yes I am very interested in BOSS technology, for small cost in money AND power if I used the BOSS technology in place of the crowson I can still consider to add another SVS AS WELL. The pitfall is restoring ULF TR if it is missing. I did see the BEQ thread but to do that I will have to give away atmos and as well it seems like so many movies lost the ULF. So anyway if I did not restore it I will not enjoy BOSS technology or the crowson?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
^^^ For sure, adding the Crowson’s or BOSS will still help you enjoy bass in movies more (if you like TR and realism), even if you don’t restore the ULF with BEQ that was filtered on most movies. If you don’t BEQ/restore, you’ll just be missing out on a lot of 20hz and below content, sometimes even below 30hz. They’ll still make a big difference in FEEL for your system though. I enjoyed Crowsons (and other components) long before I started BEQing. BEQ just allows them to be used in their full range potential. And if you like ULF TR and the lower LF, then you’ll be in for a treat for most ALL movies. :) :cool: :cool: :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 · (Edited)
@SBuger what did you prefer about the JBLs in the BOSS compared to the SI 18s cantilevered? I would have thought there would be a significant gain in ULF with the 18s.
Good questions! I did like the 18’s cantilevered for the most part, I just liked the feel of the JBLs mounted underneath me better, with or without isolators. I think the main reason for this was that I could localize where it was coming from a little bit from the cantilevered mounted 18’s. Also, even though the 18’s seriously brought the TR deep into ULF territory (verified with VS), I just didn’t feel it as strongly as the JBLs underneath me. And the actual feel itself was different as well.

Part of this may have been the design of the platform for the 18’s, but was about as rigid as it gets, which is recommended for the BOSS to be optimal. IDK, I just liked the feel better under me vs cantilevered. BUT, this just may be system specific (room, seating etc), as Nalleh runs cantilevered BOSS (he tried 18’s as well) and likes the feel better with it cantilevered, so ……

As far as the 18’s having a significant gain in ULF over the JBLs, surprisingly not really. Well, at least with the BOSS more in a ‘SubRiser’ (mostly/quasi sealed) config with the carpet and pad on the floor acting as the bottom of the cab with no isolators under it. I got way more ULF under 15 to 20hz running it this way compared to iso’s under it. It also just feels better to me this way too, feeling a little snappier an punchier, while eliminating that sometimes ‘fluttery/bouncy’ feel in that above 20hz area, just making it more realistic feeling to me. Again, could just be a preference and or room variable/gear thing.

BUT, I will say that the 18’s could bring the ULF TR super easy and with massive excursion ( I pulled my SI DS4-18’s from their cabs to try them). I suspect that I would like them more than the JBL 12’s, or should say, they would be more ULF TR capable than the JBLs 12’s if mounted the same way in the riser that the JBLs are in underneath me. The problem is, the 18’s just need SO much space, as they are huge!! If I used them in the 6” riser I’m running now with the JBL 12’s, it would have to be 12” or higher at least to accommodate the 18’s. Way too high for me in this room. So, the JBLs are the win for me :) Always pros and cons in this game it seems.

I hope all that made sense.

So, there is that for mainly the subjective, so here is a little something for the objective as well for a visual to go along with it from a VibSensor reading I took on both of them. Both gave killer ULF TR.

The "6 JBL 12’s only with no isolators'" are on the (LEFT ) and the 3 SI DS4-18’s with isolators cantilevered on the (RIGHT). Both around ref bass levels with 0-50 White Noise and easily pegged the Z axis LIMIT. Never mind the falloff under 10hz, as this just happens with VS using the phone and 5lb bag of rice for weight. Maybe d00d’s RPI devise or what they come up with in the future will overcome this shortcoming. That’d be cool! One thing the cantilevered design does do is bring in more (Y axis) forward to back movement.




Anyway, great stuff guys, keep it coming! Maybe this thread will have some interest after all :), as I was a bit unsure, but hopeful, when creating the thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Well well well, the TR King has spoken;). Great thread/posts as usual @SBuger. Waiting for the other TR king's post @Nalleh ;)
Thanks for the kind words my friend Tony, very nice of you to say!!

LOL on the TR King, I still always laugh when I hear that. I think Nalleh wears the crown now and is the true king, but I may still be a close runner up :) Either way, I think we’ve both pushed our systems TR to the extreme. We’ve helped, pushed, and supported each in great ways and has helped a lot in getting us to where we are now. Plus, it’s been super fun too and think we both get a ton of enjoyment out of our systems, as do we all! :) :) :) :cool:

Also, your now TR King status too with that awesome BOSS you built!! :D Really, that’s one of the best looking and best performing BOSS’s I’ve seen. AWESOME!! Post some pics of that Beauty if you want!!
 

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Really, that’s one of the best looking and best performing BOSS’s I’ve seen. AWESOME!! Post some pics of that Beauty if you want!!
Thanks Shelby, that means a lot to me as that was my very first build for the love of audio :). Honestly, I wouldn't have built that BOSS without your enthusiastic posts about TR. For anyone interests, my BOSS pictures and write ups are linked on page 29 of the Boss thread (linked here on the first post.).

IMO, no VNF sub can replace the BOSS, especially down low in the teen to the single digit Hz range. What impresses me the most is the ability to have strong TR at -20MV and softer volume. I had decent TR with my subs alone but I had to crank to -10MV and much louder with hotter bass to feel it, not any more with BOSS that not only I am able to protect my ears but also get more TR - to me that is very important.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Thanks Shelby, that means a lot to me as that was my very first build for the love of audio :). Honestly, I wouldn't have built that BOSS without your enthusiastic posts about TR. For anyone interests, my BOSS pictures and write ups are linked on page 29 of the Boss thread (linked here on the first post.).

IMO, no VNF sub can replace the BOSS, especially down low in the teen to the single digit Hz range. What impresses me the most is the ability to have strong TR at -20MV and softer volume. I had decent TR with my subs alone but I had to crank to -10MV and much louder with hotter bass to feel it, not any more with BOSS that not only I am able to protect my ears but also get more TR - to me that is very important.
Cool, and glad to hear that some of my posts (maybe even overly enthusiastic posts sometimes …I do tend to get VERY excited about this stuff LOL) helped inspire/pursued you into building the BOSS.

I totally agree about the lower listening levels while still getting to experience amazing TR, while saving our ears!!! Can’t beat that and still makes watching movies at these lower level’s super fun. In fact, I watch most of my movies later at night at about -20mv like you mention (and sometimes even for demo instead of -12.5 to -10mv). TR is still pretty nuts feeling at this MV and connects you in an amazing way that would not be possible otherwise. Just another reason to love TR and have a capable system :)
 

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Yes I am very interested in BOSS technology, for small cost in money AND power if I used the BOSS technology in place of the crowson I can still consider to add another SVS AS WELL. The pitfall is restoring ULF TR if it is missing. I did see the BEQ thread but to do that I will have to give away atmos and as well it seems like so many movies lost the ULF. So anyway if I did not restore it I will not enjoy BOSS technology or the crowson?
gmmW8P8Adz.....For BEQ, you won't lose the Atmos metadata if using the prescribed miniDSP HD as Pio recommends in his first post. When using the mini, it is placed after your AVR so all Atmos information is already processed.

The only time Atmos info is lost is when BEQ remuxing....which very few BEQ'ers do because of the nuances of understanding your signal chain and BM processing in your AVR. There's benefitis of BEQ remuxing material before the AVR but like every approach there's tradeoffs....the tradeoff with BEQ remux is no Atmos. So, if you prefer straight Atmos rather than 3D upmixers, the miniDSP will be perfect for restoring that single digit ULF TR which is where the magic is when watching movies and you'll still get the straight Atmos metadata as you desire.

The BOSS will reproduce that restored single digit ULF TR very naturally and with authority.
 

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Thanks Shelby, that means a lot to me as that was my very first build for the love of audio :). Honestly, I wouldn't have built that BOSS without your enthusiastic posts about TR. For anyone interests, my BOSS pictures and write ups are linked on page 29 of the Boss thread (linked here on the first post.).

IMO, no VNF sub can replace the BOSS, especially down low in the teen to the single digit Hz range. What impresses me the most is the ability to have strong TR at -20MV and softer volume. I had decent TR with my subs alone but I had to crank to -10MV and much louder with hotter bass to feel it, not any more with BOSS that not only I am able to protect my ears but also get more TR - to me that is very important.
Shelby has got me thinking about adding Butt kickers to the BOSS...:D
 
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Move your IPAL's directly behind your seat and Crowson's what? :)
While moving the sub very nearfield will increase TR it still couldn't keep up with the crowsons in the teens and single digits. Its good he has both!
 

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^^^ For sure, adding the Crowson’s or BOSS will still help you enjoy bass in movies more (if you like TR and realism), even if you don’t restore the ULF with BEQ that was filtered on most movies. If you don’t BEQ/restore, you’ll just be missing out on a lot of 20hz and below content, sometimes even below 30hz. They’ll still make a big difference in FEEL for your system though. I enjoyed Crowsons (and other components) long before I started BEQing. BEQ just allows them to be used in their full range potential. And if you like ULF TR and the lower LF, then you’ll be in for a treat for most ALL movies. :) :cool: :cool: :)
gmmW8P8Adz.....For BEQ, you won't lose the Atmos metadata if using the prescribed miniDSP HD as Pio recommends in his first post. When using the mini, it is placed after your AVR so all Atmos information is already processed.

The only time Atmos info is lost is when BEQ remuxing....which very few BEQ'ers do because of the nuances of understanding your signal chain and BM processing in your AVR. There's benefitis of BEQ remuxing material before the AVR but like every approach there's tradeoffs....the tradeoff with BEQ remux is no Atmos. So, if you prefer straight Atmos rather than 3D upmixers, the miniDSP will be perfect for restoring that single digit ULF TR which is where the magic is when watching movies and you'll still get the straight Atmos metadata as you desire.

The BOSS will reproduce that restored single digit ULF TR very naturally and with authority.
Thank You for the advice, my plan will be to use BOSS technology for natural quality, from setting the buttkicker I found the best is not making it really crazy and just have the right level to mix fairly with other equipment, this is what I enjoy the most, to do that I used miniDSP for fine tuning. Because I am not in USA it is not so cheap to build, but anyway it will only cost 30% of the crowson so worth it to try. Just have some questions

MiniDSP HD.. I only got normal MiniDSP, is it fine to use this?, I saw maybe it has a problem for ULF?? Because for this project below 20hz will most important for natural mixing

Amplifier.. If I did not enjoy BOSS technology (or maybe WAF not enjoy), can it still be useful for the crowson? I am looking at NX3000, lot cheaper then crowson amplifier
 

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Good questions! I did like the 18’s cantilevered for the most part, I just liked the feel of the JBLs mounted underneath me better, with or without isolators. I think the main reason for this was that I could localize where it was coming from a little bit from the cantilevered mounted 18’s. Also, even though the 18’s seriously brought the TR deep into ULF territory (verified with VS), I just didn’t feel it as strongly as the JBLs underneath me. And the actual feel itself was different as well.

Part of this may have been the design of the platform for the 18’s, but was about as rigid as it gets, which is recommended for the BOSS to be optimal. IDK, I just liked the feel better under me vs cantilevered. BUT, this just may be system specific (room, seating etc), as Nalleh runs cantilevered BOSS (he tried 18’s as well) and likes the feel better with it cantilevered, so ……

As far as the 18’s having a significant gain in ULF over the JBLs, surprisingly not really. Well, at least with the BOSS more in a ‘SubRiser’ (mostly/quasi sealed) config with the carpet and pad on the floor acting as the bottom of the cab with no isolators under it. I got way more ULF under 15 to 20hz running it this way compared to iso’s under it. It also just feels better to me this way too, feeling a little snappier an punchier, while eliminating that sometimes ‘fluttery/bouncy’ feel in that above 20hz area, just making it more realistic feeling to me. Again, could just be a preference and or room variable/gear thing.

BUT, I will say that the 18’s could bring the ULF TR super easy and with massive excursion ( I pulled my SI DS4-18’s from their cabs to try them). I suspect that I would like them more than the JBL 12’s, or should say, they would be more ULF TR capable than the JBLs 12’s if mounted the same way in the riser that the JBLs are in underneath me. The problem is, the 18’s just need SO much space, as they are huge!! If I used them in the 6” riser I’m running now with the JBL 12’s, it would have to be 12” or higher at least to accommodate the 18’s. Way too high for me in this room. So, the JBLs are the win for me :) Always pros and cons in this game it seems.

I hope all that made sense.

So, there is that for mainly the subjective, so here is a little something for the objective as well for a visual to go along with it from a VibSensor reading I took on both of them. Both gave killer ULF TR.

The "6 JBL 12’s only with no isolators'" are on the (LEFT ) and the 3 SI DS4-18’s with isolators cantilevered on the (RIGHT). Both around ref bass levels with 0-50 White Noise and easily pegged the Z axis LIMIT. Never mind the falloff under 10hz, as this just happens with VS using the phone and 5lb bag of rice for weight. Maybe d00d’s RPI devise or what they come up with in the future will overcome this shortcoming. That’d be cool! One thing the cantilevered design does do is bring in more (Y axis) forward to back movement.




Anyway, great stuff guys, keep it coming! Maybe this thread will have some interest after all :), as I was a bit unsure, but hopeful, when creating the thread.
Thanks for the in depth response, makes sense. 😎
 

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Thank You for the advice, my plan will be to use BOSS technology for natural quality, from setting the buttkicker I found the best is not making it really crazy and just have the right level to mix fairly with other equipment, this is what I enjoy the most, to do that I used miniDSP for fine tuning. Because I am not in USA it is not so cheap to build, but anyway it will only cost 30% of the crowson so worth it to try. Just have some questions

MiniDSP HD.. I only got normal MiniDSP, is it fine to use this?, I saw maybe it has a problem for ULF?? Because for this project below 20hz will most important for natural mixing

Amplifier.. If I did not enjoy BOSS technology (or maybe WAF not enjoy), can it still be useful for the crowson? I am looking at NX3000, lot cheaper then crowson amplifier
gmm....you'll find the BOSS will feel very natural and blend with your current setup without having to do anything special like you had to do with your buttkickers. That's one of it's key features. Just read Post 29 in the BOSS thread linked right here to get the design guidelines and if you have any questions, just post over there and they will get answered by the large community of BOSS builders.

Regarding the mini vs. miniDSP, all your questions are answered towards the end of Post 3 in the BEQ thread.....that hyperlink is here

You can use the mini but it does have some limitations that aren't that big of a deal if you want to get into BEQ with what you have.....namely, most BEQ's have 7-8 EQ channels while the mini only has 6 channels, so you may have to combine some of them to get the same effect...i.e. if the BEQ calls for a 2 LS filters of 5dB, those can be combined into one LS filter of 10dB to reduce the number of EQ channels to fit onto the mini. There's some other differences but the mini is being used successfully for BEQ today. Only you can decide if it's worth the upgrade to the HD.

Regarding the power amplifier, the 3000 will be plenty for a 3-4 driver BOSS platform. The Crowson's will need a lot more than the 3000 if you plan to have more than one since they have to physically lift the seats once the seating weight exceeds their internal springs. I recently experienced Crowson's and found the effect not very natural regardless of the power range...we tried it towards the low power setting and also the highest power setting. That's just a personal preference though....some members don't like how Crowson's feel, while others love them.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear of anyone who has a BOSS who said it doesn't feel natural by itself...quite the opposite, they rave about the natural and commanding ULF TR. As said earlier, some who have tried a BOSS by itself have ended up selling their Crowson's and/or VNF's.
 

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You can use the mini but it does have some limitations that aren't that big of a deal if you want to get into BEQ with what you have.....namely, most BEQ's have 7-8 EQ channels while the mini only has 6 channels, so you may have to combine some of them to get the same effect.
You can also loopback out1 to in2 and use both channels of eq for one output. That's what I do.
And I only see 5 eq settings per channel.
Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
gmm....you'll find the BOSS will feel very natural and blend with your current setup without having to do anything special like you had to do with your buttkickers. That's one of it's key features. Just read Post 29 in the BOSS thread linked right here to get the design guidelines and if you have any questions, just post over there and they will get answered by the large community of BOSS builders.

Regarding the mini vs. miniDSP, all your questions are answered towards the end of Post 3 in the BEQ thread.....that hyperlink is here

You can use the mini but it does have some limitations that aren't that big of a deal if you want to get into BEQ with what you have.....namely, most BEQ's have 7-8 EQ channels while the mini only has 6 channels, so you may have to combine some of them to get the same effect...i.e. if the BEQ calls for a 2 LS filters of 5dB, those can be combined into one LS filter of 10dB to reduce the number of EQ channels to fit onto the mini. There's some other differences but the mini is being used successfully for BEQ today. Only you can decide if it's worth the upgrade to the HD.

Regarding the power amplifier, the 3000 will be plenty for a 3-4 driver BOSS platform. The Crowson's will need a lot more than the 3000 if you plan to have more than one since they have to physically lift the seats once the seating weight exceeds their internal springs. I recently experienced Crowson's and found the effect not very natural regardless of the power range...we tried it towards the low power setting and also the highest power setting. That's just a personal preference though....some members don't like how Crowson's feel, while others love them.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear of anyone who has a BOSS who said it doesn't feel natural by itself...quite the opposite, they rave about the natural and commanding ULF TR. As said earlier, some who have tried a BOSS by itself have ended up selling their Crowson's and/or VNF's.
Im really starting to wonder about you now Tim, or the system you experienced them on :)
 

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Im really starting to wonder about you now Tim, or the system you experienced them on :)
Yeah...that was a sample of one watching a scene I'm very familiar with (War of the Worlds - Pods Emerge) and I wasn't sure what to expect. It felt mechanical to me, so I asked him to reduce the power and it was the same feeling still just to a lesser extent. I tried different seats on the couch and was left with the same overall impression. Hard to describe but I would have loved to have played around with them more but didn't want to be overbearing like I can be sometimes :) He hasn't experienced a BOSS yet, so hopefully that will happen in the near future.....about a 2.5 hour drive.
 

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gmm....you'll find the BOSS will feel very natural and blend with your current setup without having to do anything special like you had to do with your buttkickers. That's one of it's key features. Just read Post 29 in the BOSS thread linked right here to get the design guidelines and if you have any questions, just post over there and they will get answered by the large community of BOSS builders.

Regarding the mini vs. miniDSP, all your questions are answered towards the end of Post 3 in the BEQ thread.....that hyperlink is here

You can use the mini but it does have some limitations that aren't that big of a deal if you want to get into BEQ with what you have.....namely, most BEQ's have 7-8 EQ channels while the mini only has 6 channels, so you may have to combine some of them to get the same effect...i.e. if the BEQ calls for a 2 LS filters of 5dB, those can be combined into one LS filter of 10dB to reduce the number of EQ channels to fit onto the mini. There's some other differences but the mini is being used successfully for BEQ today. Only you can decide if it's worth the upgrade to the HD.

Regarding the power amplifier, the 3000 will be plenty for a 3-4 driver BOSS platform. The Crowson's will need a lot more than the 3000 if you plan to have more than one since they have to physically lift the seats once the seating weight exceeds their internal springs. I recently experienced Crowson's and found the effect not very natural regardless of the power range...we tried it towards the low power setting and also the highest power setting. That's just a personal preference though....some members don't like how Crowson's feel, while others love them.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear of anyone who has a BOSS who said it doesn't feel natural by itself...quite the opposite, they rave about the natural and commanding ULF TR. As said earlier, some who have tried a BOSS by itself have ended up selling their Crowson's and/or VNF's.
Thank You for posting those links. For me MLP is really a heavy couch, so the crowson might have to work so hard under all of the weight, it starts to seem like BOSS technology will be the only TR system worth it to try so I will focus on it. I will join the BOSS builders thread to choose the best equipment for the experiment.
 
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