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The question I have is plywood the best material for tr coupling from the sub tubes chamber onto the plywood?

What about plywood platform with subs mounted then tubes but let's introduce a variable?
The variable being duroc sheet instead of plywood.
I am talking about laying a sheet of duroc.k. on top of the inflated tubes instead of traditonal plywood sheet?

Can anybody test this?
Will the more solid du.ro.ck. concrete sheet be better at transmitting sharp TR or will it be better at long wave pulse tr or both?

Can anybody test this with tr testing gear as my testing gear is humble butt.o.me.ter. and thus not as quantifiable as a vibration sensor.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,623 · (Edited)
Been a few weeks since I've lurked here and there are hundreds of new posts, lol. You guys are dedicated!!

Construction on my theater resumed last week after 6 weeks of nothing due to supply shortages. Still considering my options in the future....

No BOSS
CUHB (using Home Theater Store Design Clarks so don't think I can do a cone down)
Cantilevered HoverBOSS

So, originally I didn't like the idea of the cantilevered option but I am starting to rethink that. Here's are questions as I ponder my options:

How much space is taken up behind the seat?
For a row of 4 chairs, do you do a separate build for each chair or is it per row? Weird thing about the theater seats, as you know, is that some seats share armrests with their neighbor, so I imagine a situation where if each seat has its own BOSS, the arms might be off a little from one another (especially if your neighbor doesn't want the BOSS and you do!...but at least you'd have the option)

Thanks.
You’ll probably need at least a 1.5’ or so behind your seat if using 12’s for CL.

You can do either for single seat platforms or one big one that all seats share. They both have their pros and cons. A lot of us have went to separate platforms for each seat, because it’s lighter and performs better, as well as gives you control over each seat if you need and want that (which can sometimes become a hassle and problem in itself with enough amps and outputs for each seat though, depending on how many seats you have and how much control you want for each seat). Also, if all seats are on one platform, if someone moves much at all in their seat, you can really feel it with Hover. There are other benefits too, but yeah, seats that share armrests can kind of become a problem if one is picky with that sort of thing, where one seat may not be on, or at a different level, meaning one armrest will feel right in that seat for its own armrest, but for the other armrest that is shared, may feel wrong or not on at all, with that total “balanced” feel being “off”, slightly or maybe a even a LOT, depending.

My outside seats are 1 arm seats that butt up to another armrest seat, but personally for TR purposes, I hate that and is why I have the 2 arm for my MLP seat. The 2 arm seat is better balanced feeling in every way, be it from a HoverBoss or another TR device like BK’s or whatever. If one has a way to connect the one arm seats to the others AND has one large HB platform, this helps eliminate a lot of that, BUT at the expense of performance vs a lightweight single seat platform with a seat that feels perfectly balanced on its own across the seat and in both its armrests with a 2 arm seat. Picky, yes, but some of us are just that way with our TR (and other stuff lol). All that may not matter near as much to you as it does to me or someone else.

Ultimately (but not happening for most folks because of space constraints and needing / wanting a lot of seats in their theater), is for each seat to have its own set of armrests, as well as its own Hover platform, if one wanted all seats the best that they can be. Obviously most of us have to make compromises on this, and is the case in my room for sure. Although I have separate platforms for each seat ATM, my MLP seat is by far the best for some of the reasons listed.

All this to say, do what you can do and prioritize what is most important if you are forced to make compromises. Hopefully that helps somewhat :)
 

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It clearly isn't noise, why do you think it is?
This is getting into a circular arguement & into the realm of "angels on the head of a pin". Yes, there's something there but afaik, at such a low level as to be relatively insignificant - "noise". The FFT plot shows that Hz content, but the amplitude relative to the other axis doesn't appear(to me) to be in proportion or consistent with that of the raw data. The raw data accel axis scale is somewhat course however, making it more difficult to be definitive. Maybe the scale is less finely graduated, because typically such smaller values are rather less significant? Also, note my comments about the bounce test/"res Hz" below.

Huh: 1e-005 ? Where do you see that?
Sorry, it's been ages, but IIRC "E notation" uses only integers to move the decimal place around - so my bad. I didn't mean to imply taking a root or anything. Just thoughtlessly tried to point to a ~middle value on the graph between E -01 & E +00 for reference.
X- axis is at 0.33 ( above 1e-01) at 4.4hz, also above any noise floor.
I guess it depends on where you set it, but that's also rather beside the point I was trying to make for you. Plz see my following comments & those above to Dood.

My hand, not being able to keep X axis completely still.
I'm not seeing it like that. For eg. looking at the Z axis "power spectrum" plot, where is that 25Hz content coming from? Can you shake your hand that fast? There's no resonance reported anywhere near that Hz, so how do you explain that spike? More to the point, is it relevant? Should we be looking at it giving weight to it in our analysis?

Here is the raw graph of the seat res. freq. you asked for, and yes it looks ugly😂😂, but you can see when my joult diseappear, all the axis are basically flat.
Again, to my "fundamental" point, check out the ringing about the X axis that continues on > 8sec... Counting off the time in your mind, at what point are you unable to feel that? At 3secs? 4secs?? 6secs??? Are you saying that you could still feel the X axis ringing eg 4 secs after you bounced the thing? Now compare those X axis values(those at your chosen time of imperception), to the X axis raw data amplitude levels in your Z to Y handshake test. Do the levels look at all similar? Maybe that helps bring my main point into better focus, rather than getting caught up in all manner of ******** minutia, which for a while now has been feeling like I'm in some sort of ridiculous pissing contest, rather than being about anything at all constructive.

...and some must have it all laid out on paper and in theory before they even start the project...
Well, that's what Engineers do. If you're implying that I value my time enough to do the work required to apply what little theory I've learned & a lifetime's occupation, in an effort to avoid chasing into repeated dead end - blind holes "like some", then you're right.

Well, i guess we aren’t seeing quite eye to eye on this matter, but that happens sometimes😁😁
I think we are now ;) The phrase: "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly"T.Paine would seem to apply. Even so, it looks like you're enjoying the over-theorized result well enough in whatever state of tune, so all's well.
 

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My son and I converted my BOSS into a HB-style platform yesterday. We had to use 3 26" Maxxis tubes with each tube surrounding a pair of 12" subwoofers (1 JBL and one MB Quart per tube(( the JBL's and the MB Quarts are on seperate amp channels)) because all I could find was 4 16" tubes. I only guessed at the air pressure but it must have been in the ballpark because the seats were far more active than the old style BOSS I had been using. Our first movie was Mad Max Fury Road and it was quite an experience! I turned the amps up about 2 to 21/2 clicks higher than I ever have before and heard no bottoming out whatsoever.

One thing we noticed immediately was a lot more vibration than ever before but also a lot much lower frequency movement. Not sure if we should be going for vibration or motion (or both) with this thing. I have applied no EQ as of yet (just messed with volume) from the iNuke amp and will need to learn more about that as I go along. As well as BEQ for movies.

Now some questions!

What is the effect of increasing/decreasing psi in the tubes?
What brand of gauge is best for measuring such low pressures?
At the moment I have the tubes resting on the carpet, which, while thick, is hardly airtight. What kind of difference would I notice by placing the tubes on either acrylic or hardboard?
Would replacing the 26" tubes with individual 16" tube make a noticeable improvement in performance?
How to get more motion vs vibration?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,626 · (Edited)
My son and I converted my BOSS into a HB-style platform yesterday. We had to use 3 26" Maxxis tubes with each tube surrounding a pair of 12" subwoofers (1 JBL and one MB Quart per tube(( the JBL's and the MB Quarts are on seperate amp channels)) because all I could find was 4 16" tubes. I only guessed at the air pressure but it must have been in the ballpark because the seats were far more active than the old style BOSS I had been using. Our first movie was Mad Max Fury Road and it was quite an experience! I turned the amps up about 2 to 21/2 clicks higher than I ever have before and heard no bottoming out whatsoever.

One thing we noticed immediately was a lot more vibration than ever before but also a lot much lower frequency movement. Not sure if we should be going for vibration or motion (or both) with this thing. I have applied no EQ as of yet (just messed with volume) from the iNuke amp and will need to learn more about that as I go along. As well as BEQ for movies.
Cool, yeah no comparison between OB and HB. HB rules!!!

Now some questions!

What is the effect of increasing/decreasing psi in the tubes?
More PSI (to a certain point anyway) increases TR feel and performance across the board (and will show on a VS measurement as well). As always, experimentation is needed to find what works and feels best with your particular tubes and setup.

What brand of gauge is best for measuring such low pressures?
Not sure on that, maybe @Nalleh will chime in on which one he uses. Both of my gauges suck. One or neither may or may not be accurate, IDK, as one will read ~2psi on my tubes and the other will read ~4-5psi.

At the moment I have the tubes resting on the carpet, which, while thick, is hardly airtight. What kind of difference would I notice by placing the tubes on either acrylic or hardboard?
I have thick (well fairly thick) carpet and pad and ran my HB when cone down right into the carpet and pad, as well as sealing them with painters plastic at one point too. Was hard for me to tell much of a diff. Sometimes I thought I could, and other times not. I don’t think I was doing much VSing at the time when I did the changes, so can’t really say as far as what the objective measurements would have shown. You would probably get a little more performance out of placing the tubes on acrylic or hardboard, especially if your platform and seating is not crazy heavy, but I can’t say for sure. I think mine must have been sealing pretty good on the carpet and pad that I have, because subjectively, I didn’t really seem to lose any TR running it that way. YMMV though. One thing for sure, a good seal is important. The better the seal, the better the performance (“should” be anyway).

Would replacing the 26" tubes with individual 16" tube make a noticeable improvement in performance?
Longeze would say YES, Nalleh would probably say NO, and I would say it depends LOL. Maybe, maybe not. The smaller tubes per driver should mean better pneumatic efficiency with less “enclosure volume’, but the smaller 16” tubes versus the fatter Maxxis tubes that surround 2 drivers may still feel better from the way the motion/vibration feels from the tubes being FAT, even if maybe not as pneumatically efficient, getting more motion of out of them, increasing ULF TR and overall better feel across the board with the fatter tubes. One thing for sure, Maxxis tubes feel awesome, even enclosing 2 drivers with one 26” FAT tube!! And of course, IMO, 16” tubes do too, but some most definitely feel better than others, especially with stacking them and all that. Some 16” tubes feel way better than others from what I have experienced, and then stacking two smaller tubes, makes them feel more like one FAT tube as well.

How to get more motion vs vibration?
Curves!!! :):):) Ran flat, it will probably feel like you get more vibration from the higher frequencies than what you get down low motion wise. You need curves to shape the slope of your TR across the frequency range to get the best balanced feel across the board (low to high), which may be a little different on different systems, so different curves will need to be experimented with. A lot of us really like Aaron’s 6db oct curves HERE I’d say start there and tweak to preference. Some of us prefer different curves and can be found at the top of post # 5 with links to various user curves that they use on their system. You may like some of them, you might not. You just have to take the time to try them all out. The easiest way is to get yourself a laptop, place on your lap, and play a lot of great bass scenes. Play a scene, change the curve and repeat until you find what feels best. A lot of us tweak over time to arrive at what we feel works best with our system and our preferences.

-----

Also, yes, BEQ will make a HUUUUUUUUGE diff and takes advantage of what the Hover has to offer and does best. The low stuff is where the HB really shines and is the most fun. Most movies roll off way too early without BEQ to be felt down this low though, even with some really good baseline curves on the HB in place. I just can’t recommend enough to get a MiniDSP (if you haven’t already) for BEQ, and of course (which can make all the difference in the world as well), set up your baseline curves to get all you can out of the HoverBoss.
 

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This is getting into a circular arguement & into the realm of "angels on the head of a pin". Yes, there's something there but afaik, at such a low level as to be relatively insignificant - "noise". The FFT plot shows that Hz content, but the amplitude relative to the other axis doesn't appear(to me) to be in proportion or consistent with that of the raw data. The raw data accel axis scale is somewhat course however, making it more difficult to be definitive. Maybe the scale is less finely graduated, because typically such smaller values are rather less significant? Also, note my comments about the bounce test/"res Hz" below.

Sorry, it's been ages, but IIRC "E notation" uses only integers to move the decimal place around - so my bad. I didn't mean to imply taking a root or anything. Just thoughtlessly tried to point to a ~middle value on the graph between E -01 & E +00 for reference.
I guess it depends on where you set it, but that's also rather beside the point I was trying to make for you. Plz see my following comments & those above to Dood.

I'm not seeing it like that. For eg. looking at the Z axis "power spectrum" plot, where is that 25Hz content coming from? Can you shake your hand that fast? There's no resonance reported anywhere near that Hz, so how do you explain that spike? More to the point, is it relevant? Should we be looking at it giving weight to it in our analysis?

Again, to my "fundamental" point, check out the ringing about the X axis that continues on > 8sec... Counting off the time in your mind, at what point are you unable to feel that? At 3secs? 4secs?? 6secs??? Are you saying that you could still feel the X axis ringing eg 4 secs after you bounced the thing? Now compare those X axis values(those at your chosen time of imperception), to the X axis raw data amplitude levels in your Z to Y handshake test. Do the levels look at all similar? Maybe that helps bring my main point into better focus, rather than getting caught up in all manner of **** minutia, which for a while now has been feeling like I'm in some sort of ridiculous pissing contest, rather than being about anything at all constructive.

Well, that's what Engineers do. If you're implying that I value my time enough to do the work required to apply what little theory I've learned & a lifetime's occupation, in an effort to avoid chasing into repeated dead end - blind holes "like some", then you're right.

I think we are now ;) The phrase: "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly"T.Paine would seem to apply. Even so, it looks like you're enjoying the over-theorized result well enough in whatever state of tune, so all's well.

Ok, i think i am going to take a breather on this, it kind of started to get heated 😜😂

BTW: if any of my comments came across as snarky or condessending, i am sorry, that was not my intent. I was simply trying to adress how i go about with things: i just jump in 😜😁

Anyway, back to normal TR stuff, carry on 😉😁
 
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I did install a pair of (stacked) wheelbarrow tubes to the front of my Hover Boss, allowing me to completely get rid of any kind of isolator. I still had to remove some air from my rear tubes (20" Mongoose fat tubes) because the platform still leaned a little back to front, especially when reclining. I wish I could find 16" fat tubes because if the rear ones around the drivers were smaller, I think I'd have room for a third in the middle center (where the wheelbarrow tubes are now). Although the platform has plenty of movement available and is more comfortable/stable (less back to front lean) I think I have more tweaking to do. I think removing the pressure from the fat tubes lost me some movement. I watched the sledgehammer and club scenes from John Wick, all of Alita: Battle Angel, and the opening of Blade Runner 2049. "Fast" attacks like gun shots still seemed very close, but more sustained bass like ships taking off or landing seemed less pronounced. K's landing at Sapper's in BR2049 was definitely more controlled than it was in the past. Didn't have much time Sunday, but did add a total of 4 dB more at 10 Hz on my HB curve and watched a few things on HBO Max. The New Mutants in particular seemed to really jump with the new house curve. I'll post later after I try the new HC with some more familiar material and adjust if necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,629 ·
I wish I could find 16" fat tubes because if the rear ones around the drivers were smaller, I think I'd have room for a third in the middle center (where the wheelbarrow tubes are now).
Here are some more 16” tubes that are FATTER than the norm that sure may be worth trying out for some of us. Stacking them could also get it to MegaFAT status like stacking a couple of Maxxis tubes, but would allow for just one driver to be enclosed within the tube or stacked tubes, instead of 2 drivers per maxxis tube or stacked maxxis tubes.

Durader 16” x 3” (Heavy Duty) …..Expensive but may be great (this one is linked in the post # 5 as well already but thought I would list it anyway):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FS0ESY6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_d-5tFb2W36WER

Or the same as the above Durader 16” x 3” but NOT the Heavy Duty version and may feel better for our TR needs by having more flex:

FeNIX 16” x 3”

WhatApart 16” x 3”

Duro 16” x 2.4” (not quite a fat but still a little fatter than the norm and may work well)
 

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BTW: if any of my comments came across as snarky or condessending...
Thanks for saying that! Yeah, I was definitely feeling like I was getting roughed up a bit - lol. I guess if you're gonna play with the big dogs that can happen ;) I apologize to you as well, for any lack of patience or understanding(& my sometimes too thin skin). My only objective was/is to try to assist you in your efforts. I in no way meant to denigrate them or you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,631 ·
Things can sometimes come across “not as intended” / taken the wrong way (even if maybe just by a little bit) over the internet, and can cause some unnecessary negative feelings if interpreted wrong. I’ve seen it happen before, and not just on this particular forum with just this hobby. It’s sometimes hard to express what we truly mean with mere words alone, and choosing the best ones at that, for what we are trying to get across. At least it is for me. I’ve caught myself before when reading back through a post for a proof or whatever, that I think to myself …damn that just sounds like I’m attacking the guy or too mean etc, when that is totally not what I was trying to say. Still, even said in a different way, one may still take it as such. Cons of the internet communication, but at least most of the time, the pros outweigh the cons, especially if we can keep this sort of thing in mind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,633 · (Edited)
Heck, even in real life, sometimes we can just blurt out stuff before really thinking about how it may sound and how it may be interpreted. At least on the Internet, we do still have the option and may be even a bit easier, to look over it, think about it, and “message” it a bit to hopefully get our point across in a little better way, before we release it out into the wild LOL

It can be tough though, as I think some of us are just so damn passionate about this stuff and can have pretty strong feelings / beliefs about certain aspects that are being discussed on these boards AND have “our own ways” or “what seems to work best for what we want”. Getting into deep discussions with it all is bound to cause some tension, turmoil, negative feelings. disagreements, and / or whatever else, whether interpreted in “the intended way” or not. If only we were not all SO DAMN PASSIONATE (and with strong opinions and experiences) with / about some of this stuff LOL. …..but what fun would that be :p Sometimes we really may just want to say “Hey F U, your way sucks” and want to throw down if you don’t agree with what we are shout'n , cuz ya know, we ARE a bunch of testosterone driven TR junkies here Hahahahaha :p:p:p
 

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not sure if this will be useful as had some complex hardware issues to contend with (the foam tape I use to stick the sensor down seems to have lost its stick so it kept falling off, had to resort to blu tac in the end) but I thought it might be useful to measure something that might help illustrate the relationship between PSD and acceleration. To that end, here's a sensor stuck on a sub driver playing a 10Hz sine wave at relatively low levels. This is the "vibration" measurement, i.e. high passed to remove gravity, and is in G so multiply by ~10 to compare to Nalleh's VS charts.

3135315


In PSD terms, it's ~0.1mG aka 60dB on the qvibe scale which is described as

# 1 micro m/s2 in G produces 0dB means 1G = ~140dB, 0.1G = ~120dB, 0.01G = ~100dB, 0.001G = ~80dB and 0.0001G = ~60dB

3135316


I turned it up by 6dB and acceleration is 2x to ~0.4G

3135317


PSD is up by a little over ~50% to 0.157mG

3135318


you can also see that the y axis was picking up a little under 1/4 the acceleration and is down ~6dB in comparison thus providing another piece of data to illustrate the relationship
 

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Cool, yeah no comparison between OB and HB. HB rules!!!



More PSI (to a certain point anyway) increases TR feel and performance across the board (and will show on a VS measurement as well). As always, experimentation is needed to find what works and feels best with your particular tubes and setup.



Not sure on that, maybe @Nalleh will chime in on which one he uses. Both of my gauges suck. One or neither may or may not be accurate, IDK, as one will read ~2psi on my tubes and the other will read ~4-5psi.



I have thick (well fairly thick) carpet and pad and ran my HB when cone down right into the carpet and pad, as well as sealing them with painters plastic at one point too. Was hard for me to tell much of a diff. Sometimes I thought I could, and other times not. I don’t think I was doing much VSing at the time when I did the changes, so can’t really say as far as what the objective measurements would have shown. You would probably get a little more performance out of placing the tubes on acrylic or hardboard, especially if your platform and seating is not crazy heavy, but I can’t say for sure. I think mine must have been sealing pretty good on the carpet and pad that I have, because subjectively, I didn’t really seem to lose any TR running it that way. YMMV though. One thing for sure, a good seal is important. The better the seal, the better the performance (“should” be anyway).



Longeze would say YES, Nalleh would probably say NO, and I would say it depends LOL. Maybe, maybe not. The smaller tubes per driver should mean better pneumatic efficiency with less “enclosure volume’, but the smaller 16” tubes versus the fatter Maxxis tubes that surround 2 drivers may still feel better from the way the motion/vibration feels from the tubes being FAT, even if maybe not as pneumatically efficient, getting more motion of out of them, increasing ULF TR and overall better feel across the board with the fatter tubes. One thing for sure, Maxxis tubes feel awesome, even enclosing 2 drivers with one 26” FAT tube!! And of course, IMO, 16” tubes do too, but some most definitely feel better than others, especially with stacking them and all that. Some 16” tubes feel way better than others from what I have experienced, and then stacking two smaller tubes, makes them feel more like one FAT tube as well.



Curves!!! :):):) Ran flat, it will probably feel like you get more vibration from the higher frequencies than what you get down low motion wise. You need curves to shape the slope of your TR across the frequency range to get the best balanced feel across the board (low to high), which may be a little different on different systems, so different curves will need to be experimented with. A lot of us really like Aaron’s 6db oct curves HERE I’d say start there and tweak to preference. Some of us prefer different curves and can be found at the top of post # 5 with links to various user curves that they use on their system. You may like some of them, you might not. You just have to take the time to try them all out. The easiest way is to get yourself a laptop, place on your lap, and play a lot of great bass scenes. Play a scene, change the curve and repeat until you find what feels best. A lot of us tweak over time to arrive at what we feel works best with our system and our preferences.

-----

Also, yes, BEQ will make a HUUUUUUUUGE diff and takes advantage of what the Hover has to offer and does best. The low stuff is where the HB really shines and is the most fun. Most movies roll off way too early without BEQ to be felt down this low though, even with some really good baseline curves on the HB in place. I just can’t recommend enough to get a MiniDSP (if you haven’t already) for BEQ, and of course (which can make all the difference in the world as well), set up your baseline curves to get all you can out of the HoverBoss.
Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions! I have been looking at the BEQ but it will take a while to wrap my brain around it. Maybe I'll just give it to my son as a summer project and then he can teach me how it works :). Double thanks on the curves because sometimes while watching Mad Max Fury Road the backs of my legs started itching quite a bit (almost annoying really). I think the first thing I'll do is add more air to the tubes and try some hardboard. Since I have two rows of seating with each row having six subs running off two amplifier channels (4 channels total for both rows), can I used one DSP to control all 4 channels or will I need 2 (or more) DSP's?
 

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What brand of gauge is best for measuring such low pressures?
I believe what you guys need to look for is an ATV tire pressure guage.. those tires are extremely low pressure... something like this maybe?
 

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Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions! I have been looking at the BEQ but it will take a while to wrap my brain around it. Maybe I'll just give it to my son as a summer project and then he can teach me how it works :). Double thanks on the curves because sometimes while watching Mad Max Fury Road the backs of my legs started itching quite a bit (almost annoying really). I think the first thing I'll do is add more air to the tubes and try some hardboard. Since I have two rows of seating with each row having six subs running off two amplifier channels (4 channels total for both rows), can I used one DSP to control all 4 channels or will I need 2 (or more) DSP's?
You can run off one DSP using splitters as needed, since the curves should be the same for all of the boss drivers.
 

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I believe what you guys need to look for is an ATV tire pressure guage.. those tires are extremely low pressure... something like this maybe?
That looks just about perfect I think!
 
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You can run off one DSP using splitters as needed, since the curves should be the same for all of the dross drivers.
Got to thinking and my iNukes are the DSP models - would an outboard DSP still be needed?
 

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I believe what you guys need to look for is an ATV tire pressure guage.. those tires are extremely low pressure... something like this maybe?
Bummer - they won't post it to Australia :(
Anybody want to buy one and send it to me ? :)
 
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