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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For years I've been trying to find a replacement for my 42 inch Panasonic 1080p TV, and for years I've come up short.

This industry is so messed up it's hard to even comprehend sometimes. The path to the best LCD TVs available is right in front of us, and yet none of the TVs manufacturers seem interested in pursuing it.

IPS panels are clearly the best type of LCD panels available. Wide viewing angles, good color, and good motion. There is a reason Apple uses this type of panel in most of their devices. The screen on the newest iPhones and iPads are amazing. Brilliant viewing angles, brilliant colors, etc.

Yet we see the TV industry going after everything but IPS panels. There are barely any TVs even made anymore with this type of panel. Unfortunately it seems like the general public doesn't understand the value these panels present, so the TV manufacturers are happy to put the cheapest panels imaginable in their TVs.

If one company made a high end IPS panel, with local dimming, it would be the best TV on the market. Instead we've got garbage panels everywhere, with terrible viewing angles, dirty screen effect everywhere, and hilariously bad uniformity. Oh, and make sure you buy a 4K TV because it's the best, even if there is almost no 4K content anywhere to be seen. :mad:

My only hope is Apple actually making their own TV, but that seems unlikely at this point.
 

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However, the downside of an S-IPS panel are the loss of blacks. Other panel types, such as S-PVA have great blacks and color definition but the off-axis viewing can be horrendous. There are always compromises. I have an LG with the S-IPS panel and a Samsung with the S-PVA panel and both have their plusses and minuses.
 

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For years I've been trying to find a replacement for my 42 inch Panasonic 1080p TV, and for years I've come up short.

This industry is so messed up it's hard to even comprehend sometimes. The path to the best LCD TVs available is right in front of us, and yet none of the TVs manufacturers seem interested in pursuing it.

IPS panels are clearly the best type of LCD panels available. Wide viewing angles, good color, and good motion. There is a reason Apple uses this type of panel in most of their devices. The screen on the newest iPhones and iPads are amazing. Brilliant viewing angles, brilliant colors, etc.

Yet we see the TV industry going after everything but IPS panels. There are barely any TVs even made anymore with this type of panel. Unfortunately it seems like the general public doesn't understand the value these panels present, so the TV manufacturers are happy to put the cheapest panels imaginable in their TVs.

If one company made a high end IPS panel, with local dimming, it would be the best TV on the market. Instead we've got garbage panels everywhere, with terrible viewing angles, dirty screen effect everywhere, and hilariously bad uniformity. Oh, and make sure you buy a 4K TV because it's the best, even if there is almost no 4K content anywhere to be seen. :mad:

My only hope is Apple actually making their own TV, but that seems unlikely at this point.
The TV you are dreaming of has already been made - it is the Panasonic AX900. IPS and FALD (and 4K to boot). As long as you don't watch in a pitch black viewing environment, it is one of the most fantastic TVs ever made.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
However, the downside of an S-IPS panel are the loss of blacks. Other panel types, such as S-PVA have great blacks and color definition but the off-axis viewing can be horrendous. There are always compromises. I have an LG with the S-IPS panel and a Samsung with the S-PVA panel and both have their plusses and minuses.
Yes, but that is why I said IPS panel with local dimming is the ideal solution. It brings the best of everything together.

Narrow viewing angles should be a non starter for anyone who doesn't live alone. Having one spot on a couch with normal colors should not be acceptable.

I am quoting only the two paragraphs that I'm responding to. First, IPS panels are inferior to VA panels in terms of black level, and it's not even close. The typical IPS panel has a 1000:1 contrast ratio at best, whereas a goof VA panel will get six times that contrast. Don't believe me? Check out the uproar in the x900b thread regarding the 79x900b that had poor black levels as a result of its IPS panel compared to the rest of the x900b lineup that used VA panels. Because black level is one of the most important aspects of video quality, IPS panels are ill suited for a home theater implementation (although they're great for computer monitors).

As to your second point, Panasonic made a FALD (local dimming) IPS model last year in the 900AX. It received good but not "best tv ever reviews", probably partially because of the poor native contrast.
The problem is they all tend to cut corners somewhere. Apple doesn't cut corners when it comes to their screens and it shows. The newest iPhone has an IPS screen with fantastic contrast, so if manufacturers made IPS the baseline, and then worked to improve things from there I believe we'd see spectacular results. Unfortunately most of them never even gave IPS a chance, and just moved onto whatever crappy thing they could pump out the easiest.

Oh, and I forgot to mention another area the TV industry is terrible at. Input lag. Thankfully it seems some manufacturers are starting to get the message this is an important metric.

The TV you are dreaming of has already been made - it is the Panasonic AX900. IPS and FALD (and 4K to boot). As long as you don't watch in a pitch black viewing environment, it is one of the most fantastic TVs ever made.
and how is the input lag on that TV? Probably terrible.

I have no interest in a 4K TV when there is barely any 4K content to watch on that TV. 1080p content will actually look worse on a 4K TV, and that is what makes up the vast majority of the things I do on a TV these days. That isn't changing for years to come. The TV industry is only pumping out 4K TVs because they're desperately trying to find anything to sell people on as being "new". It will make almost no difference for the vast majority of people today.
 

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Yes, but that is why I said IPS panel with local dimming is the ideal solution. It brings the best of everything together.

Narrow viewing angles should be a non starter for anyone who doesn't live alone. Having one spot on a couch with normal colors should not be acceptable.



The problem is they all tend to cut corners somewhere. Apple doesn't cut corners when it comes to their screens and it shows. The newest iPhone has an IPS screen with fantastic contrast, so if manufacturers made IPS the baseline, and then worked to improve things from there I believe we'd see spectacular results. Unfortunately most of them never even gave IPS a chance, and just moved onto whatever crappy thing they could pump out the easiest.

Oh, and I forgot to mention another area the TV industry is terrible at. Input lag. Thankfully it seems some manufacturers are starting to get the message this is an important metric.



and how is the input lag on that TV? Probably terrible.

I have no interest in a 4K TV when there is barely any 4K content to watch on that TV. 1080p content will actually look worse on a 4K TV, and that is what makes up the vast majority of the things I do on a TV these days. That isn't changing for years to come. The TV industry is only pumping out 4K TVs because they're desperately trying to find anything to sell people on as being "new". It will make almost no difference for the vast majority of people today.
There is about to be a review on the AX900 that may interest you: http://www.screenplaysmag.com/2015/03/31/coupling-hdr-with-uhd-sets-parameters-for-next-gen-pay-tv/

Are you here to rant and rave or to find a new TV?
 

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I agree with tigerriots general premise, that today's panels are a joke. Sony did not forget how to manufacturer panels, it simply became too expensive for them to provide a quality panel and continue with R&D for panels. The last terrific LCD panel manufactured was seen in the Sharp Elite. FALD with lots of zones. Not perfect at the time but by now it would be the gold standard. Even a major panel manufacturer like Samsung buys a percentage of their panels on the open market. With the general acceptance of mediocre PQ by the majority there is no incentive for improving panel performance. Unfortunately that's the world we live in today.
 

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I am quoting only the two paragraphs that I'm responding to. First, IPS panels are inferior to VA panels in terms of black level, and it's not even close. The typical IPS panel has a 1000:1 contrast ratio at best, whereas a goof VA panel will get six times that contrast. Don't believe me? Check out the uproar in the x900b thread regarding the 79x900b that had poor black levels as a result of its IPS panel compared to the rest of the x900b lineup that used VA panels. Because black level is one of the most important aspects of video quality, IPS panels are ill suited for a home theater implementation (although they're great for computer monitors).
The point about blacks on S-IPS panels has already been made. Contrast ratios can be meaningless unless you know how the contrast ratio was measured (there is no standardized way to measure it). Is it measured statically or dynamically?
 

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The point about blacks on S-IPS panels has already been made. Contrast ratios can be meaningless unless you know how the contrast ratio was measured (there is no standardized way to measure it). Is it measured statically or dynamically?
Only meaningless if you're reading the propaganda from the manufactures. Very meaningful if you're considering contrast ratios provided by the many highly regarded professional reviewers out there, especially the several residing here at AVS.
 

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I agree with you that TV tech has gone a bit backwards. The concentration on LCDs and 4K sucks.


But I disagree with you on IPS LCDs being the solution, Plasma or OLED are the most promising TV technologies for now. They have great viewing angles and fantastic black levels because each pixel is it's own light source.


LCDs, IPS or not will never have the same potential because of the issues outlined very well by posters above. Local dimming doesn't make up for the poor contrast of IPS.... you are giving the Apple screens attributes they don't have in reality.
 

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Only meaningless if you're reading the propaganda from the manufactures. Very meaningful if you're considering contrast ratios provided by the many highly regarded professional reviewers out there, especially the several residing here at AVS.
Again, are they reporting static or dynamic numbers? Hopefully they are reporting static and comparing the same.
 

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For years I've been trying to find a replacement for my 42 inch Panasonic 1080p TV, and for years I've come up short.

This industry is so messed up it's hard to even comprehend sometimes. The path to the best LCD TVs available is right in front of us, and yet none of the TVs manufacturers seem interested in pursuing it.

IPS panels are clearly the best type of LCD panels available. Wide viewing angles, good color, and good motion. There is a reason Apple uses this type of panel in most of their devices. The screen on the newest iPhones and iPads are amazing. Brilliant viewing angles, brilliant colors, etc.

Yet we see the TV industry going after everything but IPS panels. There are barely any TVs even made anymore with this type of panel. Unfortunately it seems like the general public doesn't understand the value these panels present, so the TV manufacturers are happy to put the cheapest panels imaginable in their TVs.

If one company made a high end IPS panel, with local dimming, it would be the best TV on the market. Instead we've got garbage panels everywhere, with terrible viewing angles, dirty screen effect everywhere, and hilariously bad uniformity. Oh, and make sure you buy a 4K TV because it's the best, even if there is almost no 4K content anywhere to be seen. :mad:

My only hope is Apple actually making their own TV, but that seems unlikely at this point.
You think these properties will carry over to a big screen (pixel density?) and at a non exponential cost? LG IPS tv's are rife with DSE; 'good motion properties' ... versus ancient VA panels perhaps. IPS panels als drop off in contrast when viewing at angle (but less so than VA) and the picture tends to darken but doesn't wash out as much. Apple sources their screens form LG btw but a monitor/phone size panel is a different ballpark than big screen tv's.
What is the measured contrast of the new iPhone? Just because it's bright doesn't mean it has great contrast, just that you are blinded and fooled into thinking it has great contrast ...

Actual measurements from CNET:

By the numbers
Test iPhone 6 iPhone 6 Plus iPhone 5S Galaxy S5 100% (white) 573 596 564 352* 0% (black) 0.37 0.42 0.46 0.0007 Contrast ratio 1,539 1,435 1,225 503,103
So roughly 1500:1 for the IPS Iphone 6
And 503,000:1 for the OLED Samsung Galaxy S5

A fairly decent VA tv panel scores >3500:1, a good score for an IPS led tv is >1200:1 local dimming aside of course which helps out in the tests but doesn't always work out as well in practice. See aformentioned Panasonic aka the plasma killer or that is what it should have been ...
 

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Narrow viewing angles should be a non starter for anyone who doesn't live alone. Having one spot on a couch with normal colors should not be acceptable.

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Amen!!...:D

I could not agree with you more
I dont think it I make it 5 mins looking at a panel before I judge its off angle viewing capability

Warren
 

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. The last terrific LCD panel manufactured was seen in the Sharp Elite. FALD with lots of zones. Not perfect at the time but by now it would be the gold standard. .
it is the gold standard of LCD's...bar none

There have been a lot more "tricks" introduced since the 2011 Sharp Elite...along with worse picture quality

Warren
 

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it is the gold standard of LCD's...bar none

There have been a lot more "tricks" introduced since the 2011 Sharp Elite...along with worse picture quality

Warren
Whats even more annoying is the fact that the Sharp Elite has been done. It was done 4 years ago. Obviously in 2015, parts are cheaper, and yet they still don't want to re-create a television like the Elite because it will cut into profits. How is Samsung or Sony going to make a flagship television in 2015 and put 150 or less zones in it when the sharp Elite had double? (70" had around 300)
 

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Whats even more annoying is the fact that the Sharp Elite has been done. It was done 4 years ago. Obviously in 2015, parts are cheaper, and yet they still don't want to re-create a television like the Elite because it will cut into profits. How is Samsung or Sony going to make a flagship television in 2015 and put 150 or less zones in it when the sharp Elite had double? (70" had around 300)
I counted 180 zones in my 85x950b the other night. It's pretty amazing that the Elite had 67% more zones in 15 fewer inches diagonally (which is a ton of screen space). I didn't get to spend much time with a Sharp Elite in person, but it sounds like a stellar TV. It's too bad that they never made it in 4k.
well..Sharp learned the hard way
A mainstrem Tv is never going to make it at anywhere near that price
While they were extremely highly regarded I am sure we would be all surprised at how few they actually sold..in the grand scheme
Both Sony and Samsung have similar sizes..today...that are less than the Elite was 4 years ago

Though..IMO...they dont perform as well either
However people can make a lot of concessions on picture quality . I think features often trumps picture quality for buyers

Warren
 

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It has always been difficult to market a high end TV. There really is no viable market for a TV like the Elite. It does make me wonder what might have been if Sony or Samsung had made the Elite. The idea of a 4K 70" Elite is brain candy for folks of our ilk.
 

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I agree that the industry is a joke and it's only going to get worse since all these companies need to do is whip out some new flashy term and the masses eat it up instead of wondering why every damn year the same problems exist industry wide. There is no reason why these sets should still have clouding issues other than the fact companies simply don't care because most buyers don't care as all they apparently want is their TV to be as thin as a pencil. Don't get me started on those who make tv thinness such a huge deal as that makes no sense at all to me. What difference does it make if your tv is 2 or 2.5" instead of say 1 or 1.5"?

If people actually started to care and refused to pay for things like clouding then we'd see more quality control and better designs to get rid of that problem.

With luck, LG and whoever else decides to get into OLED will make that tech be fairly issue free and the industry can be less of a joke.
 

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I don't think people will care more about PQ because most consider the current PQ to be not just good but awesome. Very few owners of a set two or three years old aren't totally satisfied. They may want to go bigger but better is not a criteria.
 

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Narrow viewing angles should be a non starter for anyone who doesn't live alone. Having one spot on a couch with normal colors should not be acceptable.
This.


I had a Vizio P Series with a VA panel. The viewing angles were absolutely terrible. I could move my head side to side a few inches and watch skin tones change.


Then I had a new LG model. The viewing angles were fantastic. Light bleed in the corners was very distracting during dark scenes. And the lower contrast ratio was noticeable watching dark scenes. It was the better of the two 4K sets that I tried though.


I am now debating trying a new Samsung model to see if their VA panel implementation is better than the Vizio. If not, I may go back get another LG.
 
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